The Loving Leverage Podcast
Welcome to The Loving Leverage Podcast, presented by Valiant Living, where we help you love someone through addiction without losing yourself in the process.
If someone you love is struggling with addiction, you know how heavy that weight can be. You want to help, but nothing seems to work. This podcast is for you. Host Drew Powell (Recovery Advocate and Valiant Living alumnus) sits down with betrayal trauma experts, CSATs, therapists, betrayed partners, and alumni living in recovery, along with Valiant Living Founder and CEO Michael Dinneen, LCSW, CSAT-S, creator of the Loving Leverage™ framework.
Valiant Living has been restoring lives and families since 2017. Fully accredited by The Joint Commission, Valiant offers residential care, PHP, IOP, and detox services for men and their families, and has earned a national reputation as a premier treatment program for men ages 26 and older.
If you or someone you love is ready for help, call us at 720-669-1285 or visit valiantliving.com. We'd love to have a conversation with you.
The Loving Leverage Podcast
Jeff Hatch: What Secrets Cost a Man
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On paper, Jeff Hatch's early twenties looked like a highlight reel. All-American at Penn, third round pick by the New York Giants, a million dollar contract. What nobody saw was the kid underneath who'd learned to hide, and then the injuries, the prescriptions, and the alcohol that quietly took over. Jeff got sober in 2006 and spent years helping other men find recovery. Then in 2019, in a very public way, it all came apart again.
Jeff doesn't skip that chapter. He walks right through it. Today he's a Certified High Performance Coach whose BREAKTHROUGH program works with business leaders, athletes in transition, and men in recovery who are done pretending.
In this conversation, Jeff and Drew cover:
· Growing up in a home that expected achievement and strict positivity, and what young Jeff learned to hide
· The gap between the highlight reel and what was really going on
· When the pills stopped being about his back and started being about everything else
· Losing football and staring into the mirror wondering who was underneath
· The 2019 chapter, and what the second surrender taught him that the first one didn't
· What secrets cost a man living a double life
· Learning to sit with pain instead of pushing through it
· What Loving Leverage looked like from the receiving end, and what Jeff would say to the wife or parent trying to hold that line right now
Connect with Jeff at hatch-coaching.com.
About Valiant Living
Valiant Living is a men's residential treatment program in Greenwood Village, Colorado, helping men 26 and older move from addiction to connection. Loving Leverage™ is the family framework created by founder Michael Dinneen, LCSW, CSAT-S. Learn more at valiantliving.com or call our admissions line at 720-669-1285. A real person picks up.
Show notes and links: valiantliving.com/episode69
The Loving Leverage Podcast is presented by Valiant Living and hosted by Drew Powell, Recovery Advocate / Alumnus.
If you or someone you love is struggling with addiction, you don’t have to face it alone.
Valiant Living helps men and their families move from crisis to stability through clinically driven care, community, and hope.
Learn more about our programs at www.valiantliving.com
or call us confidentially at (720) 796-6885 to speak with someone who can help.
Welcome And Why Jeff’s Here
SPEAKER_00Welcome to episode 69 of the Loving Leverage podcast presented by Valiant Living. I'm Drew Powell, a recovery advocate and alumnus of the Valiant Living Men's Program, and this is a show about what it takes to move from addiction to connection. Today's guest is Jeff Hatch, and on paper, Jeff's early 20s looked like a highlight reel, all American at hand, turn rod picked by the New York Giants, a million-dollar contract, and what nobody saw was the kid underneath who had learned to hide. And then the injuries, the prescriptions, and the alcohol that quietly took over. Jeff October in 2006 to the years helping other men find recovery. Then in 2019, in a very public way, it all came apart again. And what I love about Jeff, he didn't skip that chapter. He walked right through it. Today he's a certified high-performance coach, works with leaders, athletes, and men in recovery who are done pretending. And this conversation is about what secrets cost a man, what it actually means to sit with pain, instead of pushing through it, and what it looked like when the people in Jeff's life refuse to give up on him and refuse to enable him. So if you're a man who feels like your story is already written, or you love one, this is for you too. So here's my conversation with Jeff Hatch. Man, I'm honored to sit down and hang today. We actually we met, what was it, a month or two ago? About a month ago, yeah. About a month ago. And every once in a while, this has happened before with a few other people, but not very often. Every once in a while you meet a guy and you're just like, I think we're gonna be boys. I think we're gonna be like there was like a I I felt, I hope I hope you felt. I was like that immediate connection. I really resonated with your story and just how you show up in the world. And we talked a little bit about identity, and you actually kind of gave me a kick in the butt too. On like, hey man, I think you literally said, I'm gonna be your friend that helps you get over some of this stuff around identity. I'm like, good, I need it. So welcome, man. Welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Drew. I appreciate you having me and definitely uh definitely agree with the sentiment. I felt the same way. Um, I think too, there's some kindredness in meeting another large human being who's like leading, leading with love and gentle spirit. Like that, those are special people. So I'm immediately like, oh, cool. This guy and I can get along on a lot of levels.
SPEAKER_00Well, that I didn't think about that, but that is that is true. I'm sure in some ways that's probably disarming because obviously, you know, football player, and we'll get into some of your story, but you're you're a large human that leads with a lot of heart. And I think that's that is that's kind of rare. Don't you think?
SPEAKER_01I I I I do, and I don't want to say that uh because I feel like even answering in that way makes me sound like self-aggrandizing in some way, which I'm not trying to be, but I do think that typically a lot of times all of us we allow the labels that are placed on us by some perceived notions of who we are to carry into who we are, right? And like I've just never ever done that. And I don't know what what that's from, but I've just always been very comfortable. Like, no, I'm not gonna fit into your little box of Neanderthal, offensive lineman, football player. Like, that's just not the layers of me that are there. So, yeah, I think that's that's really real.
SPEAKER_00And I think that's probably what I mean more by when I say large human. I just mean your you your presence is this guy is an athlete. I mean, you're you know, it's like that in a lot of and I'll speak for myself, a lot of guys, and we'll I hope we get into some of this, but this identity stuff, when we get labeled something, we kind of live into that identity of how we're supposed to show up in the world. Well, I'm supposed to be tough and strong and all these things. And it's really kind of uh it's really a neat experience to experience you in person and meet you and kind of expect to get one thing and then get this really connected, gentle, loving human. It's like, whoa, I don't know, I don't know what to do with this. It's
Strict Positivity And Early Roles
SPEAKER_00great.
SPEAKER_01That's really one of the greatest compliments I've gotten in a long time. I really appreciate that. Um thank you for saying that, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, man. Yeah. Well, I'm honored to have you on the air. And I I want to just start with your story. Uh, you you um you talked about a little bit. I'm trying to remember the the exact words that you described it, but uh I think you said I think you said strict positivity. I think those were your words on the home you grew up in. Um who was young, who was young Jeff Hatch? What were who were you hiding then? What was going on in your life early, early on?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a great one. I think, you know, I'll initially say that I do believe that there's some piece of alcoholism, addiction, substance use disorder, or whatever nomenclature you prefer that I was born with. And so what I mean by that is like I never felt a part of, you know what I mean? I was always a part from. I just felt that way from the beginning. I don't know necessarily all the elements that that that source is in, but I know that that's my lived experience and what it was. And my home growing up, you know, like my parents were together from the time they were 15 until my dad passed three years ago. And it was a home that was I was well taken care of. You know, my dad was gainfully employed, he was a computer scientist for NSA, my mom was an army nurse, you know, I have an older sister, and our our house was one where, like, you know, I never questioned whether I was loved or not. But there was also this cloud of, you know, my dad's alcoholism that was unnamed and really just kind of existed in that that home. And then at the age of 12, my dad got injured at work and ended up retiring on disability and going on, you know, heavier narcotics, um, painkillers, you know, and and I don't know about you, but from like I I've experienced what that is, and like you just kind of become a shell. Um, and and I I I want to say this too. I don't say any of that with like any, I'm never casting any blame or anything like that on my dad. My dad did, my dad was an incredible man and did the absolute best he could as a father, but his experience in life was was what it was. Um, and so I think when that happened, I took on a different role in my house, and I kind of became the man of the house at 12. And that's kind of where this strict positivity came in. You know what I mean? I think my my mom had this idea of what her life was gonna look like, and there was this understanding that it wasn't gonna look like that. My dad was sad and depressed at the fact that he had retired on disability at 42 years old, and now what was his life, you know? And so I wanted to bring happiness into that home. And so, like, that's what I worked to do. That was just the nature of it. Like, I wanted to, I wanted to make it a happier place, you know.
SPEAKER_00Were you were you like the caretaker or just the trying to make everyone laugh? I mean, how did that how did that manifest itself? Like, I'm just trying to smooth everything over because I'm I'm hearing in me, I'm like, man, what an incubator for codependency, as far as like trying to at a 12, how unfair it is at 12 to be expected to step into these, you know, big boy roles, adult roles. You know, how did that how did that manifest itself? How did that show up for you? Was it a lot of caretaking?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think caretaking, I think humor, and then dude, I mean, right away, performance. You know, I I realized really early, like when I performed well in school, and more particularly for me in sports, that was a shine, that was a good light to shine in the house. Like that was that brought happiness into the home. And so that became a mat like a huge avenue for me to pursue in terms of like you know, both self-validation, right? Um, I'm a typical American boy who grew up in the United States in the 1990s, right? Like being a being a good athlete, being a pro athlete for a lot of us is like this this thing, right? And so I I wanted to do that, and then like I said, like it it it showed me very early that um this this brings some joy into this house, and I want to do more of that.
The First Drink That Felt Right
SPEAKER_00So yeah. You talked about when you first uh tasted alcohol, and I don't see if I get this right, but that it was it was soothing to you. I think those are the words that you use. Tell me more about that. When when did that happen? And then also what were you what was what was it soothing?
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh. The existential angst of being a freaking teenage with sub teenager with substance use disorder and and not knowing like what that even was yet. You know, I mean, I had no idea what I was dealing with. I just knew that I hated myself and I didn't like my life no matter what happened.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Um and and that's that's this piece of, and I'll I'll I'll directly answer your question after I say this, but that's this piece of substance use disorder in particular that I think a lot of people don't understand. That like the using of a substance is is very little to do with what the disease is.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01The disease is a spiritual malady, right? And so alcohol was a salve to that spiritual malady for me, right? It was it was a way that I could feel okay in my skin, um, and I cared a lot less about what people thought about me. I was good looking, I was funny. All these things kind of came into order um when I had some alcohol in my system. Um, and you know, the way I was introduced to it was I was 13 and I became a varsity athlete in my freshman year and high school. And so I started hanging out with seniors and they took me to parties, you know, and and it was the first one of those that, you know, somebody handed me a beer and was like, here, and I was like, drank it and was like, oh, okay, here we are. They talk about in the big book, right? Like, you know, you arrived and and I felt like that. I I absolutely can can echo that. I was like, this is where I wanted to be.
SPEAKER_00In hindsight, can you draw a connection? So 12 years old, you step into this role in the house, 13 years old, you're introduced to alcohol. In hindsight, are you able to draw a thread between those two things as far as like, man, when I'm drinking or I'm partying with my buddies, I'm not having to I'm numbing the performing at home piece. And I'm I'm projecting here, but I'm I'm kind of pulling a thread a little bit. Like it makes sense to me why at 13 you would want to escape the pressure of what you were what you're feeling you had to carry at home.
SPEAKER_01That's a great word, too, to describe kind of what the internal condition feels like at that age, at least for me it did, was just pressure. You know, um almost unsourced pressure, right? Because I didn't know what was going on. You're I don't I didn't have any awareness to why I felt the way I felt or why I was playing the roles I was playing. I'm just like a kid, you know. Um, but I think that's a really you're not that's a fair projection. That's a real, that's real, you know?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Well, it made it definitely makes sense. And so was was was alcohol and substance then part of your story all through your teen years then?
SPEAKER_01It was, it was. And and you know, it would ebb and flow, right? I mean, I did not I didn't pick up a drink and then drink every single day after that from 13 on, you know, but it was definitely uh it was my solution to the problem of me. That's that's what I would say. And so we talk about it all the time, right? When people get sober and they're 30 and they've been drinking or using since they were 15. It's like it takes the emotional landscape a long time to catch up because you really started blunting it when you were 15. And that was true for me. You know what I mean? The first time, you know, like from 13 on, I was I was definitely muting any type of internal unrest with alcohol
Success And The Fraud Feeling
SPEAKER_01and then marijuana and then you know other drugs down the road.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So from the outside, your your early 20s look like a freaking highlight reel from the outside, right? Like, so if we're just looking at Jeff Hatch, the the athlete, the human, so Ivy League All-American, third round pick, million-dollar contract with the Giants. I mean, you're in you're in pretty rare air here, brother. I mean, there's not many people that get to this level of whatever. What was the gap between what people uh saw and what was really going on? Oh man. Because it looks all up into the right. This guy's now has no problems. Everything is going just his life is working out perfectly. Maybe that's how you felt, I don't know. But usually there's a game.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah. No, there was a gigantic dude. I felt I felt like a total fraud uh from the first time anybody what ended up happening, you know, man, I was a uh I didn't start playing football until I was a junior in high school. I was a basketball player. And so I went to college at Penn, you know, and and was playing defensive end there, and had only moved to left tackle my junior year college. So I'd only been even playing that position for two years when I get drafted in the third round, first team All American, you know, all this stuff starts happening. And I remember my it was my fourth game in my senior year college. I got approached by an agent for the first time when I was walking off the field. We were playing at Columbia in New York, and this guy came up with a suit on and handed me a business card and was like, I think you've got potential to like make it. And I would love to talk to you about representing you. And I remember being like, does he is like, does he know is he trying, is he looking for someone else? You know what I mean? Does he know that yeah, yeah, yeah, man. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So imposter syndrome, even then, like you didn't know how good you were, you didn't know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and I started to, you know what I mean? I I I started to, because by the end of my senior college of football that season, I I knew I was really good. And and it was like it was in it, I I would say this at that point, it was in its right place. In other words, I knew when I walked down on the field that I was the best player, and everybody else on the field knew it too. But I also had a perception that like there's a lot bigger things happening than me. Um what happened for me was then I get on these documentaries. I'm on this ESPN show called Hey Rookie, welcome to the NFL, the CNNSI documentary about me called Goal to Go. There's camera crews follow me around, and all of a sudden Jeff starts to think that like, oh, he's pretty special and different. You know, start believing the hype. And I'm able to totally start believing the hype, right? And then, but but but you know, that that's the like top 50 layer of my existence. That bottom 50 is forever in a place, was at that point for a long time, still even after that, in this place of the other shoe's gonna drop at any moment and everyone's gonna find out who I really am. You know, and I think my addiction played into that too, you know. By this point, I was already, you know, I I knew there was something going on with the way I was drinking and using that was not normal, and nobody knew that. Um, so that's a piece of it. Um yeah, but I think there's a lot of lyrics. It definitely felt like an imposter for sure, but you would never know it if you talked to me.
SPEAKER_00So, what were you afraid they were gonna find out that you had a was it was it the addiction that you're afraid they were gonna find out, or was it was it deeper than that?
SPEAKER_01I think it's deeper than that, you know. I think it's deeper than that. And I think, dude, I look, I mean, let's get real about this. I think a lot of us walk through this world our entire lives feeling not feeling, right? And the what of what we're afraid people finding out can vacillate and vary from day to day, but the baseline orientation is if anyone knows who I really am, they'll hate me. Totally, you know, and and it's just it's it's not real or true, right? But it is something we do to ourselves, I think, you know. Um, and I did. And so this time that time in my life of like being uh playing in the NFL and all these accolades and people telling me, I think it it amplified it a little bit, but even after that, man, even after I torched everything the first time and got sober, I still felt like, you know, oh yeah, I can let them in a little bit, but not all the way, because if they see what's in there, you know, they're really gonna not like it.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, I relate deeply to that, man. I that it hits hard. Like if people really know me, they're not gonna love me. I mean, all that stuff. And man, I I I look back on my life in that season um before recovery, and it's almost like a emotional relational chess game. Like there was almost like a game going on behind the reality of like, well, if I move this piece here and that piece, and if I worked in it was just gamesmanship and it was it was it's dishonesty, but more than just being dishonest for the sake of being dishonest, it is you know, which by the way, I thought everybody was playing the same game, and a lot of them are, but I didn't realize that there is a way to like actually show up in the world honest and not be gaming and realize and I think part of the gift of the crash for me was uh knowing that there are gonna be some people that once they f really know me are still gonna love me for me, you know. And I lost some, you know, which is fine. But what I've gained in recovery far outweighs anything that I've lost because they're now they're real. It's like, okay, I don't have to, you know, even a friendship like yours, like it doesn't have to be based on like you don't care if I perform well. Like none of that matters. Like it's two humans coming together, being on like and it it's why I think relationships and connections can go so much deeper, so much faster, because you're not playing games with each other as much. Or you know what I'm saying? It's it's just a different way of of living.
SPEAKER_01I think it's a living I don't know why this has been. I've just been like ruminating on this a lot the past few days, and I really think it's this idea that part of our journey as men in recovery is like you you learn to lead with heart space instead of head space. And like, you know, you have to clear the channel between you and whatever you believe to be your higher power, God, whatever you want to say. But like once that's happening and you can orient towards leading with heart rather than head, all that superficial BS matters way less, you know? Um, and that's and I know for me what I've found is like on the front end, that's a really scary enterprise. Because if I'm leading with heart, I am I am fully exposed for you to hurt me. You know, like and and and a lot of people that fear alone will keep them here forever. Totally. You know, it's too scary of a proposition that you could get in here and and harm me. But my experience with it, I have found found is like, have I been harmed in that heart space by people along the way? Yeah, but dude, way more often than not, it has led to things like our relationship and like you know, this deepening love between my wife and I, and my capacity to like love this child I have more than anything in the entire world. And if I'm not connected to heart space, that's all up here in some, you know, yep.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's like the old uh example uh that just came to mind is like when it's leading with heart is like handing someone your sword and you're you're trusting them to either kill you with it or defend you with it. And you can do two different things with it. You know, it's like leading with heart's like, hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna trust you, I'm gonna be vulnerable with you, and you can use this against me or for me. And uh it I I have found that yes, there is there can be hurt, but I think uh it seems like there's so much more upside to leading with heart in the connection space than the downside of you know, uh people
Injury, Prescriptions, And Survival Mode
SPEAKER_00weaponizing it against you or whatnot. Yeah, so with with you know, happens so often in sports, but the injuries come, uh back injury comes, and with that comes, you know, prescriptions, medication, pills, all that stuff. Talk a little bit about just about that journey and just kind of when when did the pills go from I need this for my back to like I need this to survive?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think um I was already oriented towards that, right? Like I said, I mean, you know, alcohol at 13 had introduced me to the idea that substances could provide me with, you know, uh emotional pain relief as well as physical pain relief, right? I just knew that already. So what ended up happening though is I was training for the draft and um I hurt my back. And I thought I had pulled a glute, um, but what I had done was herniate a disc.
SPEAKER_00Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01And so I went to my agent and he was like, we have two choices. One, we disclose this, you don't get drafted, and we hope that somebody picks you up as a free agent next year and we pay for the surgery. Or you hold it together however you have to and get through this workout process and get drafted as high as you can. And then once it becomes unbearable, you raise the right white flag and they they then you're in their system, they paid you and they're gonna take care of you, you know? And so that's what we did. Um, and so that's when I started taking painkillers to prepare for the draft and really like maintain the capacity to work out in the midst of like trying to achieve this dream I'd had since I was a kid. But you know, I when I look back on that now, Drew, an interesting piece of it too is like that that time, there's a walk that comes for us, I think any of us, before we get into recovery, when things are really bad towards the end, and you just feel like, and it maybe not even towards the end. I mean, it can be anywhere that this starts to come on, but there's a feeling of fraudulence. We're like, you know, similar to what we talked about with this identity of like imposter syndrome stuff, it all kind of plays into this idea of like, um, you know, I am not who I present myself to be. Uh, and and I really felt that in that time of like, nobody knows my back is screwed up, and some team is gonna pick me and pay me a bunch of money, and they don't know that that's going on. Right. Um, so but that was really where the painkiller started, and then it just never stopped after that.
SPEAKER_00Um, but what an impossible sorry, I didn't interrupt you. I got it. It's just no, no, you're right. It's just an impossible situation for a young man when you've got the fear of like, man, everything I've worked for, like the timing of it, prepping for the draft. Like, I'm just trying to put myself in your shoes. It's like everything's writing on this. I mean, very few people would know, it goes back to that pressure word, and very few people would have any idea what that feels like to be everything right at your fingertips. Get an injury, and then I'm sure the fear washes over you of like, man, what you know, it's like that's just a really tough spot to be in.
SPEAKER_01It was, it was tough, and it was tough long term too, in the sense that truth of the matter is, you know, I got the first surgery of my rookie year, but like I was never the same player after that. My back was just never okay again. Um, and I mean, let me play the smallest violin in the world, right? I'm not the only guy whose story this is. There's a million of us. I mean, way more well-known athletes than me, Bo Jackson, whoever. But like, you know, what could have been for me in that space, it took a long time to to get over that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and I don't think I fully got over it really, probably until about five years ago. Um that I really really got to the place of understanding that, wait a minute, Jeff, this this has all unfolded the way it was supposed to. Right.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Like your your purpose was never to be a guy who put on a gold jacket and went to the hall of fame and you know, tried to open four restaurants and they all failed, but you had enough money from your NFL career that didn't matter anyways. And that was a small, that would have been a small life for me to live. Right. You know, my life was was meant to be, you know, to be frank, like torched in the fire, and and then come through that and like carry a message to people that that maybe wouldn't hear it otherwise. Right. You know, um, and I think for all of us that's where we have to get to. But how do you get there?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, that's what I'm curious if you'd be willing to unpack some of that. Because it it's it, you know, you've got identity, purpose, your structure, all that ends, and you described it as as standing in the mirror wondering who you actually were underneath it all. Take us a little layer deeper into that. What what what did you find like at the end of that when you finally had to come to terms of like man, this story is not being written in the way that I had dreamed or hoped at this moment. Again, not discrediting all the amazing accomplishments and all the amazing things that you were able to do, but you were kind of handed this circumstance with this injury that you couldn't control and you powered through the best you could, but you're looking in the mirror and you're like, what's there? What it what what did you find? And what did you what did you do with it?
SPEAKER_01Well,
Overdose, Treatment, And A New Identity
SPEAKER_01there's that's such a deep question. Um and I love it. I love it. Uh, I think the first thing I want to say is, you know, there's this really famous AA speaker named Mark Houston who's past now, but Mark would always say that it's it's you know, long-term recovery is is a marathon, not a sprint. Yeah, you know, and and I would say that you can generalize that to anyone listening, whether you're in recovery or not, this journey of self-discovery and life is a marathon, not a sprint. And thank God for that, because I answer that in two parts. The first time that this happened, I was really lucky. I was in the NFL Sutton's abuse program because I'd gotten caught smoking weed. And so when I overdosed and was in Tampa General Hospital because I was playing for the Bucs by that point, and I had had my spinal fusion and was forced into retirement. And when that happened, that's when I really was like up to that point, it was the darkest it had ever gotten. Where it was like, you know, leaving my apartment was a chore. Um existing, you know, seeing anyone, having any conversation, anything was really hard.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and I was lucky because when I overdosed, I was in Tampa General Hospital, she came and saw me. Her name's Dr. Martha Brown, and she was like, You need to go to treatment. And of course, I'm like, you're right.
SPEAKER_00For what talking about what are we doing? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh. Meanwhile, I had like grandma seizures trying to detox myself before. You know, this is like the fifth overdose, right? I'm literally taking like 20 milligrams of Xanax a day at this point, along with opiates, alcohol. You know what I mean? Like, I'm killing my, I'm gonna die.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01But of course I don't need to get help. Um but she stepped in, thank goodness, and was like, you need to go get help. And so I was really lucky. I went to treatment two months after that retirement and got exposed to this whole new way of living through recovery and sobriety that really helped me be able to look in that mirror and go, like, oh, I'm starting to gain a perception of who I actually am. This is this is more close to who I authentically am than anything I had been previously, right?
SPEAKER_00Totally.
SPEAKER_01But my second part to that answer is like very quickly, I was given a new role, which was the retired NFL player who got sober, right? This is in like 2006, this happens, right? And so now all of a sudden I have a new cloak to wear, I have a new mask to put on, and I'm like talking on stages two years into recovery when I don't have a thing to say.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I I don't know, I don't know my butt from, you know, I'm like and I'm up there telling my I'm like telling people how, you know, and I I so I gain this this this again, I'm playing a role. And so really my second part of that is when I relapsed much further down the road, and we'll get there, I know, but like that was when I actually had to sit, look in that mirror, and and really stare deeply into the face of the parts of myself that I had never wanted to look at before.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and here's the thing about that. What I have come to realize and continue to come to realize is that there are formidable opponents that live inside of me that I will never defeat. They will always be there. Fear, anger, loneliness, um, that imposter syndrome. There are there are a lot of pieces of me that uh are going to always be there. But like, here's the deal, man. I'm friends with those dudes now.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_01Okay, like I sat with them and and I recognized that yes, we may not agree on how we want to go about living this life, but we are in this together, and like let's go from there, right? And so that was really what came from the the long sit um with myself.
SPEAKER_00Well, is that what so just to kind of to to recap what you just said, so at 06, you get sober, then you spent
The 2019 Collapse And No Place To Perform
SPEAKER_00years kind of building this platform, talking about recovery, doing your thing, helping a bunch of people. I mean, a lot of a lot of good was done in those years. And for people that don't know your story, in 2019, you had an a pretty public uh fallout. I mean, you know what I mean? Like that was you know, and I actually I actually um what's the word I'm looking for? I I appreciate that about your story because I actually think that's part of the human experience. That's part of like you know, and not that we ever want anyone to relapse. The goal is to not relapse, all that stuff, but I just find a lot of redemption and the brokenness of that and all that, and especially you know, with my own story of feeling like I got applied, I can relate, like hey, you're on stages and you're teaching people what to do and how to do and whatnot, and then then you screw up and then the shame starts coming on and all that kind of stuff. But what did and you talked about already? I'm just I'm just curious if you if you'd unpack a little bit. What did what was the difference in what you experienced or saw or even learned in that second one, the second, how whatever you call it, you know, getting sober again versus the second.
SPEAKER_01Second burn down.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the second burn. Yeah, yeah. What what was different? What changed for you after that?
SPEAKER_01The well, you know, that this is like really good fortuitous timing because this is really what the book is about. You know, just for everyone listening, I wrote this book called Unbuilt, Becoming What Remains, and it's really about this. What happened in this time? And what happened for me, Drew, was that like I was blacklisted. Okay, so I had nowhere to go perform. There was not any room for me to walk in and have anyone tell me how cool I was. And it was the first time that that was my first time living that way. It was the first time I ever experienced that, where there was nowhere for me to go to gain external validation from which and hindsight's probably a gift. Oh, dude, the biggest, one of the greatest gifts in my entire life that I've received. Right time, right? I mean, dude, I am like, I am telling you, man. I I people say it, and like you know, I I used to be annoyed when I heard it in the rooms of recovery about being grateful for this thing, but like, dude, I am so grateful for that experience. I mean, you want to talk about I am fortified now, dude. Right, like I am, I am, I'm not, I'm not a finished product by any means, but that that peeling was like that. Was the one, yeah, because that got to like all the lower layers of epidermis, where it was just like full exposure, you know, and like um I I couldn't there was no way to heal it quick, totally. Um you know, so yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, what would you say to the so there's there's so many of the guys
What Secrets Cost A Man
SPEAKER_00that that you work with, especially the guys that we work with at Valiant, they're you know, I like to say they're very externally successful, but their inner world's kind of falling apart, right? Um, you you carried secrets and performed at the highest level while also living this kind of duality, you know, kind of double life-ish, whatever. Um what do you know now that you would say to those guys about what those secrets cost? Like what they cost a man to live that double. Because again, these are this is our guys. That's the valiant guy. The valiant guy that comes in, the guys that you're working with a lot on the outside, everyone sees them and like they are awesome. They're crushing it. They walk in rooms and people say you're the man. And they know if if you only knew, and but these secrets, man, they they are so costly. What have you what have you learned about that?
SPEAKER_01Um I think I think I have learned that um those pieces that that that ideology living like that is exhausting. Uh nobody is enjoying that experience. It's it's a survival experience, right? You're just surviving from day to day. And that, you know, to those guys, I would just say, right, like it's like we talked about, dude, because what we're talking about doing is really going from that that headspace to heart space, going from this kind of like performance-oriented existence to one of wholeness, which which is an incredibly scary enterprise. But dude, it's so valuable, Drew. And and what I say to people now about that is like the real value is not anything to do with me or my existence. The real value is when you sit and you go through that work and you get okay with that guy inside of you, your capacity to be useful and helpful grows exponentially, man.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01Because now I'm not in my head, I'm not living in my head, dude. I'm not worried about like when I engage when this conversation with you, I'm right here right now with you.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_01Right. And like there, there, that ability is far supersedes any external success you could ever have because it enables you to be human with someone. And like, man, there are a lot of us walking around that never touch that humanity. And so if you can get there and be that, dude, you can you can change the world, man.
SPEAKER_00So well said. I mean, that beautifully said, because I I and I think as you're talking, I'm like, that's where we can actually start to experience peace. Like, that's part of the issue. When we're walking around with this double life, it's it's you said it, it's exhausting. I mean, it is absolutely exhausting. And we're and the truth is most of us aren't very good at it. I mean, it's only a matter of time, we're taking time bomb anyway. I mean, it's only a matter of time before it blows up, it ruptures, and maybe maybe it's not public, but it you know, it could be a failed marriage or fallout with kids, it could be a work. I mean, there's a hundred different ways it can implode, you know. But at the end of the day, it's like we would trade all of that for just an ounce of peace and to feel some freedom from all this. And the what you're describing now and the way that you're you're living and the way that you teach and coach men to live, is you're giving them like access to real peace. Like, and it's uh and it's not done through the ways that we thought you know it would be done. You know, it's like all the things that we thought was going to make us happy and fill at peace turned out to be kind of warring against. And you said it's presence, it's connectedness, it's it's you know, it's right on the shelf behind you for those watching authenticity is everything. You know, that's that's what it boils down to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think yeah, absolutely. And and look, you said it too, like that that experience of being at basically being at war with ourselves, right? I mean, it's not there's no there's no way to find peace in that.
SPEAKER_00Totally.
SPEAKER_01Um you know, and and and you can you can catch glimpses of feeling good through the dopamine rush of a compliment or a purchase or uh you know, whatever little external validation that comes that spikes these little chemicals in our brain to make us feel like we're okay inside, but they wear off really quick. Yeah, yeah, you know, and like it it has it has only been for me through this understanding of like um, you know, and I think I think the steps orient towards it really well in the sense that all you're really doing is you're you're clearing out the wreckage of the past, you're beginning to escape the fear of the future so that you can then come into present and be in the moment you're in, right? Because like you and you know this, I know this, and a lot of if they haven't heard it, they will, right? It's like you know, depression is me living in the past, yeah, with my regrets and my shame and my guilt. Anxiety is me living in the future with the unknown and the fear. Well, the only way to avoid those things is to be present and to be in the moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because if I'm if I'm there, then I can I can't I can't do anything for anybody when I'm there.
SPEAKER_00That's right. Well, and that's why some of the the breath work and the other modalities, the different things we teach is that get you in, and it's a fight at first, man. I mean, uh, once you develop that skill that and build that muscle, it's a little easier. But man, for me, so much anxiety that it it was a fight to stay present. It's just because it it felt so much safer in the future. Like there's so much more opportunity in the future, it's so much more uh I'm like it's the power safe, man. But right here in the moment, it feels unsafe. But that's
Strength Means Sitting With Pain
SPEAKER_00actually where the access to pizza is. And you actually write about it. You write that and I read what you said, strength isn't about pushing through pain, it's about sitting with it, understanding it, and letting it transform you, which I think is so hard, man. But it's so true. That line is beautiful because it's you know, we're especially as men, most of us are raised to push through everything, grind it out, push through the pain. And you're saying, I'm supposed to sit with it. I'm supposed to like just let it be, understand it, and then let it transform me. Like, no way, man. I'm I'm doing everything I can to get out of pain. I mean, how would you how would you help us, especially as I think it's true for everybody, but I think especially as men, how did you learn this skill to sit still and to kind of sit in the pain? And how how can you help us coach us up, put your coach hat on, coach us up on how to sit in this, man?
SPEAKER_01I think um I think I was it was forced upon me based on those circumstances, right? Like I didn't have anywhere to go. I was no one wanted me around. And I also had a I had four and a half years where every day that I woke up and every night when I went to sleep, I was wondering whether I was gonna go to federal prison or not.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01From the time I was arrested, the sentencing was four and a half years, and so that time really forced me to get into to sit and get into presence because I did realize like, dude, I have two choices. I can either curl up in a ball in the corner and wait for whatever unknown future is gonna come that is completely beyond my control, or I can like sit and get okay with this and and try to use this time to help people, to to be useful, to do something that is of value. Um, so that was kind of how the experience happened for me, you know, and I want to say this too. You talked about kind of for men and this this idea of pushing through. And one one audience that I really love, like men in particular, and then you deal with like retired football players, particularly NFL players. There's like an alpha energy to that world.
SPEAKER_00Totally, I'm sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and I got to speak to a group of them about um probably two months ago now. I got to tell my story at this NFL alumni event. Wow, that's awesome. It was so dude, it was so cool, you know. And I'll tell you, I'm not gonna name the guy, but he was like an all-pro for the Tennessee Titans, um, defensive end. Uh, you know, the guy's like 6'5, 270, and he's still he's got like five percent body five. He's like 49, he looks you know, incredibly just like all the things, all the things. And he came up to me after I got done talking, and he was like, How do you do that? You know, and I was like, you know, there is some knowing that has to occur within each of us individually. So for me to sit here and try to give you like this exact roadmap is impossible. You know, you've lived this experience. But what I would say is there's some disciplines that you can engage in that will help. Number one for me, every day is like connecting to a higher Power before I do anything else. And I do that through prayer. Right? Like this is this is what the day-to-day looks like, right? So I wake up and I pray. And I don't pray for myself. I don't pray some random prayers. I really lean into like the St. Francis prayer. And in particular, there's a line in that prayer where he says, it is in self-forgetting that one finds. Wow. And so my prayers every day are to try to be useful and helpful. Help me love more than I'm loved. Help me give more than I take. Like help me be the best version of myself I can be out there today. And then I meditate. I sit, I listen, I meditate. And that meditation varies from time to time based on where I'm at, right? Because, like you said, like there are days where it's easier and days where it's harder. When it's easy, I can sit and do 20 minutes of Vedic meditation and and it's it's chill. Lately for me, I'm not sure why. It's just the way it is. I think maybe there's just things happening and my internal space just feels a little different. I've been it's been way easier for me to do like a mantra meditation where I just sit and repeat the Sanskrit mantra 108 times. Um, and that connects me, you know. So those practi that, you know, and the prayers
Prayer, Meditation, And Real Brotherhood
SPEAKER_01change too, right? These are, but these are like formative practices that are happening every day that I do not change, no matter what, what they look like changes, but them being there is not anything that changes. Then I read spiritual text. Then I can start like moving into the day with the appropriate, I would say, alignment.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, you know, and then again, like through the day, most of the stuff then becomes really oriented towards me being a 12-step guy, which is like regular communication with my sponsor, regular communication with sponsees, other men in recovery. But you don't have to be sober for that to be the case. What you have to do is you have to build connection and relationship with other men in particular that you share openly and honestly with.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, if I'm the guy, if I'm the coach and I'm that guy for somebody, that's fine. If we're we're learning how to build that muscle and you're doing that with me first, great. But as time goes on, we we have to build community with each other because because we can get alone very fast and it gets lonely very fast. In this world we've built now, this modern world, which I love. I freaking love that I can pick up my phone and order food and it's at my house in 30 minutes. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But what I don't love is that we can live in silos, dude.
SPEAKER_00Totally.
SPEAKER_01You know, you can go through your whole day and not have a real connection with another human being, yeah. And have a lot of ideas based on a lot of information you're getting through these little digital devices we carry everywhere, you know. And so, so for me, one of the things I really try to stress the guys is like, dude, that's all good. I love modern world too, but you have to do it, you have to connect in real space with people in real
Coaching Leaders Toward Authenticity
SPEAKER_01time.
SPEAKER_00That's right. That's right. You know, well, and you're doing a lot of that now. I want you to talk a little bit about just the work that you're doing because I know you coach business leaders, uh, like we said earlier, who's successful on paper, but their insides are kind of empty or falling apart. You're you work with with athletes, uh, men in recovery. Um, you've got a breakthrough program. Um what is what does your work look like? And talk us a little bit about kind of what you're doing, how you're working, and we'll we'll link to your website and all that kind of stuff as well, because I want the guys that are listening to this to know more about you and get connected. But talk a little bit about what what your work's looking like these days.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think um coaching is an interesting space because it doesn't look the same for any client. Um, but if you ask me what I'm doing with them, I'm doing all the things we've been talking about for the past hour, right? I'm I'm helping these guys orient towards their authentic selves. And and the exercises that are used to make that happen for people vary from person to person. Um what works for one guy doesn't work for another. But I have like, you know, a ton of coaching material that I utilize. Um, I call them these coaching kits. Um, and it and it just depends on the guy what they're gonna get. But basically, what what it would look like in practice, um you're we're gonna we're gonna get together, we're gonna have a conversation, you're gonna tell me what's going on. I'm going to be open and honest and vulnerable and transparent with you because that's the only way you're gonna get the freedom to recognize that you can be that with me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then once we get there, we start forming a plan. And it kind of, like I said, looks different from guy to guy. But typically when I meet with guys, I'll give them assignments to do. And then we have some type of some type of uh you know solid form to our next meeting. And then it's gonna go where it goes. But we're building each time, we're building towards further and further down the road, where inevitably my goal is to get guys to a place where not only are they feeling you know satisfaction from their lives internally, feeling okay in their skin, but they're orienting towards how they can use their experience to help other people.
SPEAKER_00It's awesome, right? That's awesome.
SPEAKER_01You know, because I yeah, yeah, because it's it it it's easy to get selfish. Um, I am by nature. Yeah, um, but but my my my thing, you know, and but but the thing is, man, I know this to be true. It's like even with that selfishness, um I am my best self and I am my happiest self when I am using some piece of my experience to help someone else. That's right. And a lot of people tell themselves this story that they don't have anything to give. Right. Right, especially these really successful people. These people with really high material success, they start to believe that's all they are. Yeah, and I'm always trying to orient guys towards the fact that no man, like whatever your lived experience has been, there's somebody out there who needs that to get where you're trying to get. And like let's let's bring it to us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so good. Um man, this has been awesome. I I I want to ask you just a couple more quick things, but I I'm just so grateful for the time you spent the work that that you do and and just even your story, man. Just uh I mean you've you've kind of been to the highest of highs and the lows. I mean, you've kind of seen it all, man. And and you still just have um uh uh it's almost like a a joy about like there's just some I don't know, you just there's an enthusiasm that comes off of you. And I know it's not you know, it's not hype, it's not fake, it's not I know you have your fair share of struggles, but I think it's it's what it's what recovery is meant to to look and feel like, you know, and the honesty of it. We we just recently rebranded and renamed this podcast, the loving leverage podcast, because it's a term that I love that. Do you? Yeah, thanks. Michael Michael Denine kind of coined this phrase because what we believe is that at the end of the day, the thing that's more powerful than addiction is is love. It's gonna either be that love. Finally, you tap into something that uh is greater than addiction, that's love. Or sometimes the loving leverage is someone you care about uh that loves you enough to help to get help. You know, sometimes we're not we don't have the love within ourselves yet. Hopefully we get there. That's part of the process. We love ourselves enough to say I deserve it, I'm worth it. But sometimes we have to borrow love from someone else who loves us enough to stop enabling us. And you know, so what was that like in your story if you look back over all the different things and you look at just the loving leverage in your story, either from yourself or from someone else? Where did you see that intersect in your story, the loving leverage?
SPEAKER_01I I would say to you that okay, then this is just my own my own situation. Um I spent a lot of my life um living under the guise of the perception of what people thought I was, right? And so like relationships with women, friendships, everything was oriented towards who my my labels, my labels, and then I met my wife, and we started dating, and she didn't even know what teams I played for for the first two years we were together.
SPEAKER_00Like it was probably refreshing for you, honestly.
SPEAKER_01Oh my god, man, it was and and and I will say this, dude. She my wife is the most authentic human being I've ever interacted with, and she fell in love with who I was actually as a person. And that was what really started to expose me to the fact that okay, none of that other stuff, like here's this person that I put on a pedestal higher than any other pedestal of a human being in existence, and she actually loves like who I really am. Um and that really helped me. It really has helped me become um okay with myself, you know, and and I will say that like I I never want to be so codependent that I'm putting my you know, my self-valuation on another person, but it's like you said, right? Like that experience enabled me to gain the insight that like, oh, there is there is there is something here that like I don't have to perform. And you know, you mentioned this kind of joy that that I live with, and I really do I appreciate that. And I feel that way. I do feel like I'm excited to be, I'm I love life, you know, I really do. And I was watching this Ronda's clip um like a week ago, and he was talking about how do you really carry the message to other people, right? And that the real carrying of the message is not in anything that we say or really even like necessarily the actions that we take, but it's in like the essence of our energy that we bring to other people, our experiences, and in in that it leaves them in this place of going, what what have they discovered that I I want what they have, how do I get that? You know, yeah, and like you can try to manufacture that, it doesn't happen. Yeah, you know, and and so I think like part of it for me is like I want I want to live that way because because I want as many people as possible to ask me the question, dude. You know, like I don't care if it's at the grocery store, you know, uh if it's wherever it is, right? Like I want to be representing that so that the door is open um for for anyone anytime to say, like, hey, what's going on in there?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah,
Unbuilt And Glorious Ordinariness
SPEAKER_00it's so good. Tell me before that you go, tell me a little more about this book. You mentioned it earlier, but you got a book, you got a book. It might actually be by the time this podcast airs, it might actually be out because it's coming out in what August, end of August?
SPEAKER_01August 21st, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome.
SPEAKER_01So I yeah, yeah, thank you. Thanks. Um long-term process. And I want to pull this apart because it's kind of funny. It's like I started writing like four years ago, and you know, like you said, my story, the fallout was pretty juicy. You know, there's like a 12-page story in Sports Illustrated about it. It was on CNN, it was in the New York Times, right? Like it was like vice president cancelled, all this stuff, right? So it was like a big story. So I'm like, let me write my memoir. Yeah, and then I started writing, and I was just the most like I got to like college and I was like, I don't even who cares?
SPEAKER_00Like you were bored with your own book?
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh, you know, and I'm like, how many, like, how many of these redemption stories have I read, right? And so it's just like I'm not doing that. And so I just put it down, and then we had Sloan, and I had all these nights where I was just up, like, and I started to write again. And what what ended up coming out was really this it I would call it a memoir, a self-help book, and a meditation in one. And so it's you know, it's called Unbuilt, Becoming What Remains, and I wrote it in five movements, and each movement orients towards like part of my narrative, so it's telling part of my story, but then each narrative section, the movement moves into a diagnostic section. And so the reader can kind of ask themselves these questions, do these exercises that will hopefully kind of manifest the same process I went through of like going from this performance-based identity to a place of wholeness and like um what I would say is like glorious ordinariness, yeah. Um, you know, I love that.
SPEAKER_00Um glorious ordinary. I'm still on that. That's beautiful. I love it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So so I that's the book, and then I wrote a workbook with it. So, like, you know, you can kind of get get get us exposed to the exercises in the book, and then if you want to do the workbook, then it's like there's like a 30-day protocol in there that you can follow, and then like a maintenance program afterwards to kind of stay engaged with these practices, which all for me always go towards this right here, right? Yep, you know, getting closer to our authentic selves. Um, so yeah, that's it. So where do we get that?
SPEAKER_00We get on your website or where where can we find it?
SPEAKER_01It'll be on my website and it'll be on Amazon. I mean, I'm self-publishing because yeah, you know, I'm not that cool to have like Harper Collins want to print my book, but I you know, again, like we talked about before we started recording, right? Like that, I'm just pro I'm process oriented, not outcome-oriented. I wrote the book, I'm proud of what I wrote.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_01And whoever's supposed to find it and read it will find it and read it. But yeah, it'll be on my website and on Amazon. And again, it's called like Unbuilt Becoming What Remains.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's great, man. I I got to, you were kind enough to share a little to share it with me. You text it over to me. So I I've been I've been able to kind of get a sneak peek, and it's it's awesome. I can't wait for everyone else to get it. I appreciate you sharing. All right, before I let you go, last question, man.
Hope, Boundaries, And Next Steps
SPEAKER_00I try to close out the episode with this because I just picture there's a there's a guy in his car listening to this, or there is a loved one that is running out of hope, and they're just like, man, I I don't know where to turn, I don't know what to do next, or they're just becoming aware of, man, I I need some help or whatever. What would you want them to hear from you and your story today? What what hope do you have to give?
SPEAKER_01Well, for the guy in the car, I would say, man, your story is not written yet. Um, you know, the the the hardest thing you'll ever do is make the one honest decision to ask for help. But if you can make that honest decision to ask for help, you are gonna rewrite your story and it's not already written. And like shame, shame is a hideous monster that will tell you that you are the worst thing you've ever done and that's all you'll ever be. Shame is a liar. That is not who you are. You are not the worst thing you've ever done. You are not the version of yourself that's existing today and doesn't like who you are. Like, it is right there for you to become, you know, whole, better, complete, and and experience happiness and joy in your life, right? Like, look at Drew and I, right? We are guys that have been to the bottom. And like if anyone watches this conversation or listens to it, what they'll hear or hear, I think, is probably two guys that are having a relatively good time experiencing life, and that's there for them. And then for the loved one, I would say, you know, hold a boundary. Uh, it's not your fault that whatever has happened to this person you love has happened. You didn't cause it, you can't control it, right? These three C's, right? But but really, like the firmer boundary you can hold with them to help them orient towards getting help, the sooner you're gonna experience relief.
SPEAKER_00Wow. So that's Jeff Hatch, man. You can find his coaching work in the breakthrough program at hatch-coaching.com. And I'll put that link here in the show notes as well. Everything we talked about today fits inside the loving leverage framework created by our founder, Michael Benin. And if you're someone who's still stuck, that framework was built for you. Head to ValiantLiving.com to learn more. Or if you're ready to talk with someone today, call us at 720-669-1285. That's the admissions line for a men's program and a real person picks up. Oftentimes it's me. When you call the show notes and link to this episode or found at ValiantLiving.com slash episode 69. So if this episode helps you, share it with the man who needs to hear it or the person who loves them and subscribe so you don't miss what's coming next. I'm Drew Powell from Addiction to Connection. We'll see you next time.
