The Lord’s Prayer As A Daily Recovery Framework with Matt Smallbone

Prayer can feel like a talent you either have or you don’t. If you’ve ever sat in a 12-step meeting, heard the Lord’s Prayer, and realized you’re just repeating words without connection, you’re not alone. Drew Powell sits down with his close friend Matt Smallbone, a pastor, former touring musician, and the author of The Prayer Experiment: How Praying Like Jesus Realigns Everything, to talk about a surprising path back to honest, grounded prayer.

Matt tells the story behind his “experiment”: stepping into a preaching series on the Lord’s Prayer while feeling like an imposter, wrestling with unanswered prayer after miscarriage, and carrying half-formed beliefs about God’s sovereignty that quietly killed his motivation to pray. His response was not a new technique or longer prayers. He committed to praying the Lord’s Prayer every day for a year, then using it as a framework by pausing after each line and speaking plainly, without trying to sound spiritual.

We walk through surrender, daily dependence, forgiveness, and how “Our Father” breaks isolation, which is especially powerful in addiction recovery. We also talk candidly about father wounds, shame, triggers, and why “lead us not into temptation” can be prayed as “help me pass the test.” Then we get practical: Matt role-plays how to pray through a gambling addiction spiral and how a betrayed partner can pray through anger, therapy, boundaries, and the slow work of forgiveness. If you’re looking for a simple Christian prayer practice, recovery-friendly spirituality, or a way to pray again without performing, this conversation gives you a clear starting point.

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Transcript

Welcome And The Prayer Experiment

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Welcome back to the Valiant Living podcast. I'm your host, Drew Powell, and today's guest is one of my best friends in the entire world, Matt Spawnville. Matt is a pastor, a speaker, a former touring musician. He's the author of a brand new book called The Prayer Experiment, How Praying Like Jesus Realigns Everything. Matt has been such a great friend to me through the years, and I'm really excited for this book that he's written. I can vouch from Matt personally. And he's lived this out. He actually spent an entire year praying the Lord's Prayer every single day. And today we're talking about why that ancient prayer still matters so deeply, especially in addiction recovery, where the Lord's Prayer is spoken every day in 12-step rooms around the country and really around the world. So we talk about surrender, we talk about daily dependence, forgiveness, unanswered prayers, how prayer can move from performance into honest connection with God, all that good stuff. Also, if you want to grab a copy of Matthew Book or learn more about today's episode, you can head over to ValiantLiving.com slash episode 64. Um, and one other thing, don't forget, our next third Thursday clinical round table is coming up soon. You can register now at ValiantLiving.com slash roundtable. We're all better when we learn and grow together, and that's what these roundtables are about. So, anyways, let's jump into my conversation with my good buddy Matt Smallbone. Well, man, I'm with my old pal. Author, Reverend. You know, when you came up with this book, Matt, I'll finish Matt Smallbone, the prayer experiment. Number one best selling book on prayer on Amazon as we sit here right now. This is amazing. Yeah. New release. Okay. Yeah, yeah. One time, and we've been buddies a long time, and uh, one time I got a promotion at my job. Yeah. You remember what you said to me? You said to me, Was it inspiring? Kind of. You said, Congratulations, do they know you're an idiot? So when you've bring your friends sends out 20s. That's right. So whenever you have, and it was like kind of like, yeah, that's you know the real me. You know, when you're when your buddy does something that's extraordinary, and I do love cheering you on, but there's a sense I'm like, do people know Matt's an idiot? And he wrote this book. It's not true though. Let me let me disclaimer it. You wrote this book out of personal need. Yeah. I wanted to have you on the podcast because um in the last four years I've been in a lot of 12-step meetings in the Lord's Prayer. We pray almost every meeting. You have the Serenity Prayer, Lord's Prayer. Sometimes we just go through it, and I was curious, even in my own life. I mean, I've never really stopped and broken it down like you have. Yeah. Uh tell me a little bit, why why did you where did this book come from?

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Yeah,

Why Prayer Felt Hard

SPEAKER_01 2:56

so uh so I'm a pastor, and so a big part of my life is writing sermons. And as uh as you'd remember, man, there are some uh there are some series where you have some mastery over the topic at hand, and and there are others where you're just swimming a bit. And uh we we had a we were starting 2025 with 21 days of prayer and fasting and a seven-week series uh called uh Te Lord Teach Us Teach Us to Pray. And I was on the um and so I was going to be leading my young congregation in downtown Nashville uh through the Lord's Prayer, you know, breaking it down kind of one movement at a time, the six movements in the Lord's Prayer, and thought we'd do an intro week as well. So come January one, as we're getting ready to write that first Sunday's talk, I'm feeling lots of imposter syndrome because the truth is I've loved Jesus for a very long time, but I've never felt um very good at prayer. Like I've been more drawn to the study, more drawn to the you know, being able to think about things of God, but actual uh for for various reasons, one of them being personality, uh, another one being some kind of undercooked theological ideas. Like I just never really, really prayed very much. I I've never been the guy who can get up consistently at 4 a.m. and and I've been kind of jealous of those dudes and they seem to float away from that. And I've never I was never able to do that. I try for three days and I'd give up in despair. Um, so personality-wise, I you know, the idea of a silent retreat for me is just misery, you know? And I'm like, oh man, maybe I'm just not maybe that's for people who aren't wide like me. This intimate prayer life was part of it. And then this theological idea called the sovereignty of God, which is basically this thought that God God is all all knowing and will really will do whatever he wants whenever he wants. I'm like, well, why am I gonna bother spending time in in that scenario? I struggle there too. Yeah, so and and then we had a we had a miscarriage, there's an unanswered prayer part of it, which really I prayed quite well in my 20s, you know, teenagers, 20s. I was pretty good. When you say quite well, what does that mean? Uh I mean like enjoyed it, was and would do it. It was a spiritual discipline of yours. Yeah, a fair bit, yeah. And I I felt I felt close with God when I would do it. But you know, after we miscarried a baby uh in in our 30s, I really stopped praying for the longest time and then would just be really haphazard since then. And and then, you know, you become a lead pastor and people hand you a microphone and you start praying in front of rooms. And so anyway, it was a lot of imposter syndrome going into this series. And I was teaching it, and the phrase that stood out to me was well, first of all, Jesus teaches two ways not to pray. Uh, and I was doing a lot of that. I I real upon reflection, doing the work to bring it into so like there's that like Jesus says there's two ways not to pray, and this is how you should pray.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

Which is wild because there's like a wrong way. Would you say there's a wrong way to pray?

SPEAKER_01 5:44

I would never have listened I've studied a lot of Bible. I don't know how it's so embarrassing how I missed all of this stuff for so long. But Jesus says don't pray like the Pharisees, which is really given a spiritual TED talk, looking smart in front of people when I'm praying to be seen. Yeah, right. So don't do that. What do pastors do all the time?

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Dude, I people would come to me when I would lead worship and they would compliment me on my yeah, how on my prayers. And I uh that really fed my ego. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

So that's a it's a it's a weird, it's a weird job in in that way. And then the other one is praying like a pagan, which is like babbling lots of words, trying to coerce God to do stuff. If I can just get the words right. You pretty much perfectly describe my first 40 years of prayer life. Then you'll then then then I'll be able to convince trick God into doing it my way. Wow. So don't do that. And honest reflection, I'm going, man, like that's probably that's that's a fair share of what I do. And then I realized I was then Jesus says, this then is how you should pray. And I'd realize I'd spent my entire life um trying to do everything that Jesus describes in the Sermon on the Mount. Like, I'm I I love Jesus. I believe, I'm learning his teachings work where they make sense to me. You do these things, whether you believe in Jesus or not. You live this life, you end up with a better life. But I'd never taken once taken him seriously at what comes after the words of this then is how you should pray. Right. So I just committed then and there that for the next 12 months I was going to pray the Lord's Prayer exclusively and see what happens and just try and learn.

The Lord’s Prayer Framework

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Okay, so I have to ask you a question. I'm sure you've been asked a million times since you've done this. Just because I know a little bit about your personality, and we have some similar wirings as fellow Enneagram Sevens. Praying a prayer for 12 months to me sounds like a prison. Like, it sounds like that's the most boring. Like, I would get two days, three days in and be like, I can't do it anymore. Right. Was that tell me about that experience for you?

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Like Yeah, so what this is is like Lord's Prayer is easy enough for like a toddler to memorize it. Uh-huh. But when you really get into it, it it's enough to keep like a theologian and a and a deep thinker and engaged for life. And there's so you didn't feel bored with it? No, because so what's what I have found is important is you need to pray each movement, pause, and pray for your thing. So just say I'm praying for man, our car just broken down. We need help, right? So start with our father who's in heaven, which is you know, as close as the air, like our father who is close, you begin with that, and I revere your name. Hello, hallowed be your name. And you just stop and you'd you'd pray before I get to asking for this car repair or whatever I need, you just acknowledge that you have a loving heavenly father who is close. I quite often pray in my car. Like this, and I do this multiple times a day, two minutes to seven minutes, probably. This this kind of framework. Yeah, use the framework and just run each thing uh through through the framework. And so you've you've got the start with this moment, which is pretty healthy, acknowledging that God is close and with me. I've spent a lot of my life imagining God kind of exists in heaven beyond the moon. That's not really where the original language is present, gets you to be connected. In the air, like God is God is as close as air. Wow. So that's that'll change everything. Also, it's our father, it's not my father. It's like it's it's a communal thing.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

So I wanted to ask you about that too, but yeah, keep going. Yeah, I had that wrong. So you so you so you start there and then you just keep moving, moving through it. The next thing you do is you submit your will. You go, God, I've got some pretty clear ideas about what I'm gonna ask for you next. But ultimately, I just take a moment to acknowledge that you're a higher power, um, that you have more intelligence than I do, and you actually know what's better for me than I know. But that being said, so I'm I submit, like I'm yours. Um, but then you ask for the thing that that you want. Yeah. Um, and that's where that's really asking for daily bread. That's that's where my prayers would start and end, really. I'm a genius at asking for stuff. I was I was good at that, and then being disappointed when it didn't happen. So you've got to submit it, you're close to this father, you've got the submitted heart, and you're going, hey, I think this is what what we're gonna need to get through the next day. I think that's an important part of it. I'm still, I think that's the journey of this year, figuring out the 24-hour piece. Give me today my daily bread. Right. Um, because I pray for stuff beyond that. Okay. Right. But here's what's wild next, you forgive people. So Jesus said every time you pray, you should forgive people and ask for forgiveness. Now that is a light way to live. Meaning that for the last year, I have forgiven, I've asked for forgiveness um several times a day and forgiven people by name several times a day. Right. And that's not how I used to do forgiveness. I used to carry around a bucket of unforgiveness. Yeah. And when it got too heavy to carry, I would pick out the easiest one just so I could cope with my life. So I I've just been walking around in a and I think Jesus does teach about um the forgiveness should be regular and unlimited. So that is um, and that's different from reconciliation. You can't always reconcile. Right. What I love about the recovery community is if anyone understands that, you guys do.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

That's what I'm sitting here thinking. Like, this so perfectly matches even the 12-steps of like making amends and going back, like all this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

And again, well, it's why the I think it's why the 12-step works, because it is this there's something about this prayer that just is aligned with the way the human soul is designed.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

It's acknowledging I'm powerless and I need a higher power to like it's yeah, I mean, you're literally, it's like they go so hand in hand, and I think it's it's beautiful, but I don't want to interrupt your thread because you're you're at the provision, the daily bread.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Yeah, then it's lead me not to temptation, which is literally the most difficult phrase to understand ever. Like, is God this loving father who Jesus is at pains to let us know he's a good father who would who wouldn't give a stone when you ask for bread away? Right. Um, lead us not to temptation. So the question is like, am I seriously, is that you seriously what God's doing up there? Like throwing sin options in front of us and tempting me to do that thing. That doesn't seem right. Yeah. Uh where I'm at with that currently is that my favorite theologians think a better word for it is the test. Okay. Like, don't it's really like don't test me beyond what I can handle. So it's a pretty freeing thing to pray after forgiveness. Like, hey God, don't let me break on this thing.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

This that's really hard. There's still like a withness to that too. Like it feels more connected than like the lead me not in temptation. I the way I interpret it feels different than what you just said because that is more of like, God, would you be with me through this day? Because I'm gonna hit things that are gonna cause me to maybe, or in our world, we talk about triggers.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Yeah, help me pass the test.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Help me help me pass that. When I pass that liquor store, yeah, you know, I'm gonna be tempted. I need your help to keep driving.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

So that works. And then you finish with spiritual warfare, which as a Methodist, I've never prayed for that. So every prayer now finishes with there's an enemy, I'm acknowledging that even on my best day could take me out. Yeah, you know, even if I'm on a bit of a roll, making a ton of good decisions, maybe uh he could take me out. So I'm just like, you know, you're praying for spiritual protection. Wow. And then it's amen. And and so, you know, it's it's several times a day, one minute through probably rarely more than 10. Do you and use it as a framework? And and because of the framework, it actually never gets boring. That's the surprise twist.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Well, I was gonna mention, I didn't think about this, but you've been posting on Instagram, and I like I've got this love-hate, mostly hate relationship with Instagram, but I think you're redeeming it in a really beautiful way because you're actually posting examples of how this prayer works in a lot of different scenarios. So I'm gonna link to that because I want people to go and follow along because you're actually showing how it doesn't get boring because you're applying it to very specific situations. It could be a Mother's Day, it could be whatever.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

So you're praying for Mother's Day, right? Uh-huh. You think about everything that happens there, you end up asking God for forgiveness on how you've treated your own mother. And then you also spend some time forgiving your own mother. There's not a lot of that going on in our cultural moment. There's a lot of we're holding our parents accountable for emotional language, trauma that they never even talked about. Right. Our parents are like, we did the best we can. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we're not celebrating the resilience that they taught us and any of that. So it does reframe it. Yeah, so you're you're forgiving them and and then you're uh it's it's just it just seems to work. Do you ever pray anything other than this now? Yeah, I mean, so basically I use the framework um to, you know, because one thing that's sort of missing there is gratitude. You've kind of got to catch it in the opening part of it. Because you know, most of our prayers begin, God, thank you for today.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

I didn't naturally get there. So I, you know, I I kind of just add in some gratitude usually. But no, I mean this morning already, like I've prayed this, prayed this twice, and it tends to really just help.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

So the framework keeps it to where you know that you're aligning with how Jesus taught us to pray. And because I that's what I'm sitting here thinking. Because I candidly, I just I ordered the book. If I'd known it was gonna do so well, I probably wouldn't have. I was just trying to support a poor, starving author friend. I for sure. I need this. That like I desperately

Honesty, Discipline, And Joy

SPEAKER_02 14:34

need this. When you came out, and I want to ask you about this because when you came out and said what you said about I basically I suck at prayer, my paraphrase, but I'm not good at it. I needed it, I need to leave my church to write. And so I did this, and based on a year of experience, I wrote this book, right? That really hit me in a profound way because here I am, former pastor. Right. Also have I feel very connected to God right now in my spirituality. Yeah. And my definition of prayer has changed from what it used to be. But I don't have a discipline of or a way, I should not say a discipline, but a pathway of connecting with God outside of God, I know you exist, I know you're there, and I experience you in nature and all the different things. Yes, a little haphazard. Very haphazard. Right. There's no so when you said this, what what gave you, and this is maybe a little personal and you don't have to answer it, but what gave you the psychological safety as a pastor at a prominent, growing, and I would say large church in the heart of downtown Nashville to say, hey guys, I'm not very good at this. That right there alone was impactful for me.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Yes, I'm not I I often have remorse after I say these things in the front of a room. Uh I I am learning it. I man, I learned a long time ago. Uh-huh. Me telling my heroic stories of faith doesn't really help the room, nor does it move the room. Yeah. What helps people I and I think we're in a unique cultural moment where people hearing from guys with people folks with my job title that that we're not perfect, I think is exactly kind of what people believe.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

You either say it or eventually you prove it.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

It becomes clear. So and I also like I've I've never wanted you know, I I came to pastoring a bit later than some other people. Like I was 38 before I kind of held the responsibility of of leading a church, and so I had my point had and I'd paid attention, like I was in the church space since I was a kid. Yeah. So I'd paid attention to how this whole thing could fall apart. It felt like honesty and and vulnerability was was was really important part of that. Um, I have learned to trust the power of of of being honest, but also what you can't do is you can't just be like, Man, I I suck at prayer and and not do something about it.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

That doesn't work either. I guess by the time you confess it, you had already done a year's worth of like you weren't saying I'm currently terrible at it.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

It was I was wrestling this and what's unique about this job is you've got to guide people, and so you can't go fully like, man, I'm just bad at all these things. What does help people is you can be vulnerable, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but also going, I've also solved I've also solved a problem that you still have. Yes. Um and this accidentally this accidentally achieved all of that.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

I love that. It reminded me I was in therapy with um well, it was a therapist, it doesn't matter who it was, but we were going and something I had an aha moment. Yeah, and he told me, he said, Hey, don't preach about this on Sunday. Right. Similar idea, right? Like, hey, you just learned this, you haven't used it yet. I know you think this is awesome and you want to share it, which I do. I mean, I it's powerful, but I think that was his point. Like, why don't you live with this for a while before you preach it? And that's that's what you did with this.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Well, it was it, it it it it just takes a while for this stuff to take. I'm a big um advocate of, you know, what one of the ways to follow Jesus without Jesus being here is like how do you be close with Jesus? Because basically Jesus says that's the that's the way to like flourish as a as a follower of Jesus, is you uses this vine in the branches metaphor, like you've got to abide, you've got to stay close. Yeah, how do you do that? So through spiritual practices, and I've learned I can only add in one at a time. Okay, and it's a bit like um you you know, you're we've all got these weird friends who love CrossFit, right? Like they get up at 4 a.m. and they love it. But you know what is true? They didn't love it for the first month. Okay. Um but they're not going three years later because they hate it. Right. Fills them with joy. But it took them some time. Yeah, and so I I feel the same thing with prayer. It's Sabbath, taking a whole day off work is a really hard thing to do. First four times. So I took a year to learn how to Sabbath as well. Before this? Yeah, just yeah, I mean, ages ago because I was burning out and having panic attacks because I had to and you're working on most people's Sabbath, right? Yeah, yeah, all that stuff. So um, but I I found you you go when you add in a practice, what most people do is add in a million things and fail in three days. What I found is you add in one practice, you commit to it till it fills you with joy and you want to do it. Yeah, and at that point, it's just it's it's not a hard thing to do anymore. And so prayer has become that for me. Yeah. But you'd have you're gonna have to, you know, if you jump in on this, you're gonna have to fight through it for a little bit. Really? Just be like super committed to it as an you've got to get super committed to it as an idea that I obviously this is gonna help. Yeah. And then just expect to feel like you would if you were gonna start CrossFit tomorrow as well. Like that feeling of like, I don't want to I don't want to put my shoes on. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Well, it's so simple though. You're not calling people to this uh, you know, hour, hour and a half of intense prayer. I mean, I think that was part of my challenge with prayer growing up was I just didn't feel like I had the spiritual stamina for it. Like I would see these people like, well, you're gonna go pray for an hour, and I'm like, golly, after two or three minutes, I'm just tapped. I've prayed everything I know, I don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Well, you well, you didn't. So I mean that's the thing with prayer, is you you can't you can't do that straight away. Like you've got to you've got to pray. I've got a quote in the book. Um, you you gotta you've gotta pray as you are, not as you want to be. Wow. You know, that's really aspirational, but when you're following the heroes of the faith, um, which is you know, I think I'm one of the few people to attempt to write a prayer book who's not a hero of the thing you know you're writing about. Because sometimes that's what actually I think that's the magic of the book. Well, that's that's what creates barriers because you go, Man, I just don't know. Yeah, like I've heard some people, you know, who've described their Sabbath that involves cooking food the day before and you know not having any TV. And I'm going, man, I I don't know if I'm made of that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Well, even in this conversation already, you've you've mentioned a couple things that you're still wrestling through in the prayer itself. Like it's not like I you've got it. Well, and like you said, theologians have wrestled this prayer for years and years. So it's not like, hey, I've written uh everything you need to know about this this prayer is in this book, you know. No, I I'm I'm still learning. And there's stuff I read it already. Like I missed the whole our father insight. It's funny you brought that up because I want to go back to that. Before I do, I just want to shout out also, because I think it's important, you know, in recovery, similar to church world, like the the beauty of what we do and even staying sober has a lot to do with connection. We we always say sobriety is not the opposite of addiction, it's actually connection. So I want to go into the Our Father stuff, but I also want to shout out, you know, Church of the City downtown is a really beautiful community that I think has helped. Uh and I want to hear your words on this, but I think it it it's a special place that has allowed you to write a book like this because it's the one of the only churches I've ever been to that after you preach, everyone turns their chairs around in a small group and talks about it. And you even encourage them to, hey, if there's something I said that you disagree with or whatever. Like, I don't know many churches of scale that bake into the actual gathering, a time of community and conversation and wrestling. And honestly, the times I've been, it's it's my favorite part, and if I had any feedback, it's too short. Like we get into it, I'm like, no, they're starting a song, like we're like, you know, and it's probably intentionally that way. It makes us want more. But I just wanted to say that I think that's a special part of this book is the community that that's that's by. Behind it that you've built there at Church of the City.

Father Wounds And God’s Nearness

SPEAKER_02 22:02

But on the Our Father thing, one thing that comes up for me, there's the the our part that I've always missed too that you you brought out. But especially in recovery, there's a lot of shame. There's a lot of just really weird feelings around dad, father. For a lot of us, that's a that's a big hurdle to just even get into the prayer, is this idea of like, I've just got a really messy relationship with the concept of father or dad or whatever. What are what are some even just some pastoral insights you would give to the person that's listening or watching who's just like, man, I I don't even know if I can get to the rest of the prayer because my relationship with dad is so wonky.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

Yeah. Yeah. It for most, I reckon for at least half people, like it's it's the biggest challenge of this whole thing. Where there's where the most of the work is gonna have to be done. Like anyone with a substantial father wound or shame about how a lot of my mates in recovery feel a lot of shame about how how they have fathered as well. So there's so it kind of hits you from kind of from from several levels. Um, I I would say it's just important to remember um that God is not uh when when Jesus says to pray to our father, he's not describing like just a glamorized 10x version of our own dads. He's talking about this this father as as you read about the way the father metaphor plays out in scripture. You know, there's this prodigal son element to it. This is the father who runs, yeah, runs to you after you've blown it. Yeah, after you've literally couldn't have couldn't in that story is about a kid who hit absolute rock bottom and there was no coming back from it. Yet the father runs to them. So, you know, my challenge would be you've got to, if you've got a painful relationship, if you've got a great relationship with your own dad, you almost have to kind of put put that aside because even if you've got the world's best dad, that's nothing on on on what what God, the Father in Heaven, it's even better is like, yeah. So, you know, I I think you've you've it it may be as simple as going, okay, our father in heaven who is nothing like my dad at all, hallowed be thy name. Right, right, right. So I think that's an important part of it. But you you know, it'd be worthwhile just doing a bit of a study on like how how the the father images actually when there's there's two metaphors that play out in in prayer for Jesus, it's father and friend. So there's this midnight friend as well. So those are the kind of this this this great friend, um, that the love of a friend and the love of a father uh in in kind of a perfect sense are kind of two ways to that's really helpful actually, because you know, I'm in the camp of having a great dad.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

It actually took me a lot of therapy to even try to I'd say the joke, to try to find something wrong with him, right? You know, it's like I was defensive of him, you know, because I'm like, man, this guy's awesome guy, you know. Um but yeah, I think that's really really helpful. Why why do you think maybe this is redundant so we can skip through it, but why do you think it was dad? Like, why not our creator? Why not our king?

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Our I actually have no answers for any of why the Lord's Prayer, like why the six things are there, right? Except for that when you dig in and you and you run it, it works. Um, I think one of Jesus' preferred metaphors for God, um, and I think that's probably important to remember as well, um, was father.

SPEAKER_03 25:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Um no one back then, no, no observant Jew in the first century referred to God as Abba. So that that's the the Hebrew word that we're talking about here. Um Are you saying that's a was a relatively new concept that Jesus was introducing? It's it's a little bit debated. Okay, but my guys that I trust and I write about this in the book, they they think uh and and it's not father, it's this, it's what a little how a little kid so there's this theologian Joachim Jeremiah, and his thing is it's like it's literally what a little Hebrew kid calls their dad. So it's basically daddy, you know. Um and no, that that is not how folks prayed back then. And I think actually the use of our father was probably what the disciples saw, like Abba, you know, Jesus praying Abba, um, daddy, that they just looked at it and went, I I don't have a category for this. Teach us how to pray. I mean, we've got our our mate Chris, you know, he's he calls God Papa a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that stuff for me several years ago, probably would have been a bit of an eye roll, you know. Yeah, those guys are actually right.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

Yeah. So there's there's a level of intimacy. Well, and I know that's vulnerability. That's little little kid. That's right. Going to and an understanding. I I know I know some of that stuff can feel performative, and that's why I'd also produce an eye roll in me until you know someone we're both past as kids as well. Right, exactly. Exactly. But you're exactly right. There that speaks to a level of intimacy or a level of understanding of how I actually need to show up. And we talked about this right before we started. My son is wrestling with you know, some theology stuff, right? And I don't have good answers for him except for Abba. Right. Like that's and I do know how I feel about my kids. Right. You know, you've got four kids, like we we understand, and that's the closest I can get to understanding how to approach God is how I'd want my kids to come to me. Yeah, you know, and that that seems pretty powerful. Can you go a little a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 27:44

That's almost the whole box of dice right there, essentially. Yeah, that's that's really that's a really helpful insight. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

What about that? The and and I I won't be able to get the book. You'd write about all this, but give us a little teaser even on just the hour part. I want to go back to that a little bit more because again, in recovery, isolation is the thing that most of us addicts turn to. That is the most damaging thing we can do. And it's the hardest thing. Like I check in with guys every single day about things that I'm wrestling with, and there's never been one time that I've wanted to. You know, so could you could you unpack the the significance around the plurality of that?

The Power Of Our

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Yeah, pronouns matter for some for some reason in the Lord's Prayer, and it's not my father. Um, which Jesus, if anyone could have prayed that, you would have thought that would yeah, he'd be the guy going my no, it's our our father, and then it's also give us today our daily bread. And so yeah, yeah, so it's a real kind of communal thing. It's well that changes things quite a bit. Oh, it definitely does. Because you know, we're usually praying like God who's living somewhere on the other side of the moon and may care from time to time haphazardly for me. Right. Um, I'm gonna I really want a cupcake right now. And could you find me a park close to the front door of the grocery store? Amen. Like that's how most of us, yeah, most of us pray. And it's these very me and my prayers. Um, I think when you really get into the our father, uh, and and you couch this whole thing in community, there's a lot of power there as well. And also, you know, when we're asking for things for our daily bread, you know, we're we're not asking it changes what you're asking for. Because um, you know, you think about we we we're living in an incredibly individualistic, hyper-individualistic cultural moment, probably never been seen before in the history of humanity. When we we almost read everything, like we read our father, and our we process it in our mind as my father. And we go to God as an only child.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

That's right. I have, I mean, for years, it's that's what's so crazy about it, and I I think that's what's so important about you bringing this light is that there's simple things like that that drastically change. I mean, even I mean, talk a little bit more about the dependence part because it changes the provision that I'm looking for. It actually helps me celebrate provision for other people when I realize that I actually should be praying for our communal provision. And again, it's just not to be redundant, but it it ties so directly to addiction because so much of the provision, or let's put it this way we most addicts really struggle with dependence and being dependent even on healthy things, so we end up turning to unhealthy things for our to be dependent on to get our needs met. I mean, unpack a little bit in that context, just first of all, why do we struggle so much allowing ourselves to be dependent? And then how is it affecting the way we pray for it to be a plural dependence?

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Yeah, well, I think there's just a lot of cultural factors um based on the country that you live in, the type of house that you are raised in, um where I think definitely, you know, as as boys transition from little kids to to manhood, it's it's expected. Um there's a lot of weight put on ourselves to be to be responsible. And sometimes the weight of that can be crushing. And I think one of the free things about following Jesus and and believing in this kind of benevolent creator and massive God who's out there is that ultimately this doesn't actually all rest on my shoulders. Um, and so I I think that's an important part of it. When when you are praying the Lord's Prayer, so just imagine you're praying about a father wound or something. The part of the plurality that really matters is so just just say I'm praying for my dad, we don't, and and just imagine we have a complicated relationship and and I'm about to see him, and and we know that lunch has to happen where we get to the bottom of this thing. When when you start praying our our father with with your own dad in mind, you start thinking about okay, so this is how I pray. I say, uh you are you are our father, you're my father, and you're my dad's father. And so you're going to it like he's actually got two kids to take care of in this situation. Whoa. And for me, that's that was a real one of one of the really massive early learnings where in any situation, if I'm praying about a broken relationship or something, it rather than going, God smite them, I'm going, You're my father, you're their father. I I hate it, but I get that you love us the same and you care equally for both of us, and there may be a different point of view. Yeah. Um, wow. That that they are coming to you. If they're praying at the same moment, they're hitting us from an entirely different angle, hoping for an entirely different outcome.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

Yeah. It's a mind-blowing. That just messed with my brain. Because I mean, that is that reframe alone. I mean, even when it comes to the forgiveness part, where you're talking about confronting people in situations, everything else, about how it puts you way more shoulder to shoulder than at each other. Right?

SPEAKER_01 32:53

I mean, just and then give us today what we need to get through this and start praying for the next 24 hours that just me and dad, that we my me and my earthly father will give us what we need and what would that what could that be? Maybe it might just be that rather than getting straight to reconciliation, we need to have a lunch where we just don't yell at each other. But maybe that's what we're asking for.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

But here's what here's the game changer. In almost every relationship, my approach has been, what do I need from this relationship? Not what do we need from God?

SPEAKER_01 33:25

What is the win-win? So that praying our father sets you up for kind of win-win prayers, which is not that is not how that that's not how TikTok's teaching us how to live.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

Does that mean embracing sometimes the provision is not what we've gained personally?

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Unanswered prayer becomes a lot less disappointing when you pray this way. Okay. Because you're acknowledging like you're submitting your will and you're just going, you know what? I don't even uh I don't, I I you're smarter than me. Yeah. But I'm gonna I'm gonna ask for this anyway because you seem to want to engage. You know, uh Dallas Willard's got a great quote about prayer. It's like uh humans and God talking about matters of mutual concern. Like that's what this is. There's something about it that even though God knows what's best, that that he he wants wants the intimacy of us chatting with him, much like when you know what your kid needs, you still want them to ask you for it. There's some intimacy in that, in that relationship. Um, so we you want your kids coming to you with with how they need your help. Yeah. And that I I think that all plays out.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

Let's

Role Play Prayer For Gambling

SPEAKER_02 34:31

just for fun, let's let's I want to do a couple little role-play things here. And um and this is kind of throwing a curveball at you, but I want you to, if you're willing, because you've been doing this so well online, could you help walk through a couple scenarios like how you would pray this prayer? And let's start with um let's start with someone uh with a process addiction. Some let's just start with someone like gambling. Okay, you've got someone who is trying to is really struggling, chasing losses, wants to be connected with God, wants to pray, feels a lot of shame, doesn't know where to start, deep in the hole, has to have some hard conversations with wife, yeah, family, whatever. Yeah, and they're saying, Pastor Matt, how do I apply this prayer to my situation? Yeah, do you feel comfortable? Like, could you walk us through how that person should pray that this is a good idea?

SPEAKER_01 35:22

Yeah, I can, yeah, yeah. Let me let me give it a crack. I would pray, and this is actually the benefit in doing committing to it, yeah, process. Like, this is kind of easy when you do something for a year. So I would be like um our father who who is close, and I would just take a moment and I would pause there and I would go and I would just think about that. I'd be like, man, I'm feeling all kinds of shame. I'm about to reveal something to my wife that may actually end us, and she doesn't know about this, and I'm feeling very alone. Um but you're our father, you're my father, you're my my wife's father, you're my kids' father, all the people who who are about to realize we don't have money anymore. You're our dad and you're close, and you care for me, and you're the type of dad who runs for me when I make mistakes like this. And then uh hallowed be thy name, um, is basically just saying, I I honor you, I revere you. Um and you just spend a little bit of time there. And there's you're you recommend even pausing in that place for like Yeah, just just pause. You use your own words. Really important to pray what you got. John Tyson. That's it's kind of his famous quote on this. Like you you don't, this is not about big words or anything that's Pharisee and pagan stuff. You you talk like you talk, yeah. Um, it's it's it's a conversation, yeah. Just review your name. I maybe on this one I'd I'd race past that. You usually tend tend to find yourself camped out somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

I think if the first time you're praying this prayer, I think you'd probably camp out at the our father bit and just kind of that'd be that thing would be a bit of a healing start. Just going, all of this doesn't weigh on me, and I'm coming to a wise um I'm coming to a wise being who loves me, and that starts in a pretty healthy way. Hallow be thy name. Um and then you're you're saying, Would your kingdom come? So I I am asking that the way that you designed the world to be would be more true in my life. Wow. Um And would your will be done in this situation as it as it is in heaven. It's basically like saying, Would your will be done? That's a surrender pose, right? Yeah, posture of surrender. Yeah, like I I don't know what to do. Um, I'm gonna actually pray for something next, but ultimately I'm saying, please please do things your way because I'm I'm drowning here. You're all done. So you surrender your will, and then uh you give give us give us today our daily bread. And so then you'd be praying for something very specific that you wanted. I I think it would be pr something like I I need to tell my wife that we can't pay for the kids' school, and I've done all this in secret, and it's got out of control in the last three months, and I need to have this conversation with her. Um would you give me, and would you give us the peace, would you give me the bravery to have this conversation? Um, because you're thinking about the next 24 hours, really. That's what what you need for today. Right. Give me uh the courage and I ask for when I don't know what to say. Would you give me wisdom? I think I'd probably be praying, would you help me not make this worse? Wow. And and if I'm like, because I I I know I'm pretty good with words, I might lean on that more heavily. I might pray, God, I I am tempted to to technique my wife and I know how to do that. Would you help me be fully honest? Or something like that. Help me not manipulate and gas. Well, yeah. Yeah. So and what's interesting is at this point you're not really praying for the $32,000 that because that's probably what you would be praying for normally. Without this prayer, you're going to go. I need $32,000 and I'm gonna put it all on red, you know. Um, yeah, help me, right, right, and then shocker it will be black 100% of the time. That's right. Um uh gives today our daily bread. Uh forgive me. Forgive me for this. Um, and you would just spend some time there. I think it's kind of helpful to name something very specific. Yeah. Uh like forgive me that this is happening because of whatever, yeah, you know, that decision I made back then. Would you would you forgive me? Um, and you own it, and then you would find someone else to forgive along the way. And quite often it's like, you know, a family member or something, or something that happened to you back in the day that kind of put this bent in you. Like I just as it's it's you're processing something like as as I am walking towards this horrible conversation I have to have with my wife, um, something triggered over here, and I need to forgive Kevin for that time that that thing happened. So something like that. Um, Lee, it's not temptation, like, don't let this break me, don't let this break us. Yeah. And then you get into spiritual warfare and you're just saying, I I this thing is so dark that it's hard for me to make sense of it without that. There's an enemy out there coming to steal, kill, and destroy our family. And and I'm asking for you to for your protection, you would help me stand. In in spiritual warfare, the the the passage, the main passage on it, Paul uses the word stand all the time. It's not really about going on offense, it's like um, and then stand, and then stand, you know, sort of the spirit is about the only weapon you get, which is truth. Yeah, so truth is the weapon, and the rest of the rest of the kind of spiritual protection we get is also that we can stand in that moment. And then you just cheese, man. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

Yeah, it's pretty good. That's so good. All right. Uh uh can we do

Role Play Prayer For Betrayal

SPEAKER_02 41:18

another one? Yeah, yeah, because I think that's so helpful. Talk to because we have so many betrayed partners, yep. Family members, and when I say betrayed, it could be a spouse, but kind of al Anon community more that side of it. Yeah, a lot of people listen to this podcast or on that side of it where they've got someone and they're trying to heal. Yep. What is someone who is feeling betrayed, hurt? Um, yeah, how do they how do they word this prayer? How do they go into this?

SPEAKER_01 41:45

Are you guessing there's more women praying this prayer than men? In our context for sure, because we're a men's program, but yeah. Let's go with that. So let's just pretend it's a spouse who's been a spouse named Mary praying for her husband, Matt. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. I think Mary, one way to go about it would be for Mary to pray our our father. You're my dad, you're Matt's dad. Um, we need you. We need you to do your dad thing and love us and fix this thing. Um and I just I'm glad that you're close. Help me feel you. Like I I I want to feel your presence in this because I'm just so hurt and so sad. I don't know if I want to do this anymore, you know. But you're our father, and I know you care for him as much as you care for me. And I think it's it's fine to be honest. I'd be like, and I the truth is I hate him right now. Yeah, you know, I hate him, yeah, hate what he's done to us. Um but you're both you're our dad and we come to you. I'm coming to you with this. Um and I just take a moment and revere you and just say, You're good. You're good, and I wanna I need to trust that right now, and I'm gonna need that from you. Um uh your kingdom come, would you will be done? I you say I'm about to ask for something very specific about what's coming next. Um, but I ultimately acknowledge that you are way smarter than me, and you actually see the pathway here. You see the win-win. And I'm praying for that. I pray that your will will be done and and I understand that it may not be where my thinking is at right now. Uh gives today our daily bread, and so then you're praying for a very specific thing that's gonna happen that day. So I, you know, I pray for this conversation as we go into therapy today. It hasn't gone well. Um I keep getting angry at my therapist um because they keep kind of putting some of this on me. Right. Um if there's any wisdom in what they're doing, would you give me, would you help me? See that? Would you help me own my piece of this? Um give me give me give me that. Be with us in this session that's coming up at 2 p.m. But I pray that we might actually walk out of there today net positive somehow. Yeah. And I don't see a pathway there. Right. Okay. Um, and then you're praying for forgiveness. So forgive, I think that's probably easy for most people, but you're asking God to forgive you. Like I God, I I feel very validated in the hatred and disgust that I have in my chest right now. Um and it's killing me. And I want you to help me with that. Would you would you help me? Would you forgive me um for the toxic anger? Not all anger's bad, but toxic anger is it's not a recipe for flourishing. Would you forgive me for my toxic anger? Something like that. That's good. Yep. And then I think Mary's probably forgiving Matt in that moment. Um, and and I forgive him for what he has done. And you're setting him free. This is hard work. You're setting him free from from the moral debt that he owes me. Now Jesus says, no matter what it is, in one of his parables, it's it's unlimited and regular, and you're probably praying this same prayer all the time. Right. Um, but it's lightening your load probably before you feel it. And real forgiveness, really, part of it is just you know, you're finding ways for this not to be always, and sometimes it takes years. But in in in relationships that have been up-ended like this, you have to find a way to not always bring it up for the rest of your life. You can't do that. So, and it's just gonna be this daily 70 times seven was Jesus math, you know. Unlimited forgiveness. Right now, doesn't mean you'd you're not careful with some boundaries and all that, but but there's forgiveness there. Uh lead us not temptation, like lead it, lead us, just help help us pass this test that's coming up and help help me in this therapy session. And then you just go into the spiritual warfare bit. You just like I acknowledge that we are we are under attack, like this whole thing, it's hard to explain without there being some coordinated attack. This is bigger than just a series of bad luck. Feels like for some reason the enemy's trying to take us down. I pray for protection on my mind, on my heart, pray that for my kids. Pray that you'll give me a thick skin and a soft heart. Um, but would you protect our family? Yeah. Help us get through this. Amen. Something like that.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Wow. Yeah, I feel like even in this moment, I feel like I mean, I know you're I realize that you're saying a prayer is practical and helpful, but even as you're saying it, I've I feel the nearness of God in that scenario. Because it's not hard for me to imagine someone praying that, and it's very real. Very, I mean, and it's just the power of this this prayer, this framework when you say it out loud. I mean, even what it's doing in my soul as you're going through these scenarios, it's transformative. I'm like, golly, I'm just seeing, I see things different.

What Matt Hopes You Learn

SPEAKER_02 47:10

This is a very this could be a very like cookie cutter question, but I I I do want to know, like, your your hope, your prayer for this. You know, it's newly released, it's doing really well, it's gonna get in the hands of a lot of people. Just the heart behind the author. What is your what is your hope and prayer for this?

SPEAKER_01 47:32

I yeah, the biggest risk we took is on the back page of it. It says that used to say at the very top, used to say one man, one prayer that changed it all. I was a bit Lord of the Rings. One man. At the very last minute. What is it? What's the top line? What does it say? A book for people who aren't very good at prayer. Yeah, yeah. So that was I felt like that was the biggest risk that we took. I am learning biggest struggle to your greatest joy. That's I've I'm learning there's a lot of people who love Jesus and don't really know how to pray. And it's because we've settled for less powerful prayers than this. Okay. That's God, thank you for today. And so my my hope is is like what you just you know, what you're describing, what you experienced just then, if we if we grasp this, this is a this is a game changer for our faith. Um, we do all sorts of praying in our lives and at churches, and hardly any of us pray like this. Um, so I I feel like I feel like there's just been this great secret of the soul hidden to so many of us. And I'm yeah, I'm grateful that that I kind of stumbled into it. So I'm hearing stories of people reading this book on planes and other nervous flyers. This is what happened last week. Uh saying, are you a prayer person? I'm I'm about to meet with my sister. Uh-huh. I'm I'm on this flight to do this, have this conversation that could go either way. And uh it's just been it's been wild. And so it's it's it's I just I think I think if we pray this way, we're we're living a life more aligned with Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 48:57

Well, I was gonna mention that you put that on the cover, realigns everything, our thoughts, our hearts, and what I love is our posture. Because as you did those examples, the realigning of our posture towards God and the world is is huge. So this is this is everywhere. This is on Amazon, but it's in Barnes and Notes and bookstores. You can go pick it up, pick it up anywhere. Um, thank you for just what it took to get to this. I mean, thank you for your honesty and for like your willingness to go there first, and then the work it took to admit being a busy pastor putting this down. What's your what's your final final parting words for us today on this?

SPEAKER_01 49:37

Um, I do want to say if you're not much of a reader, and that is a you know, it's a thing. Like I have a lot of friends who don't read, right? Um, there's an audible as well. Oh perfect. Is it you or sexy Australian accent? It's like four hours. So it's it's Did you enunciate so we can actually understand? I I got my this is and that's mixed up. Okay. And I say assume, as you know, I assume you're wrong. And the dude on the screen on the other side. Did you make you change it? He was like, oh, that was weird. And I said, That's how we say it. He's like, not for this, it isn't. So every time you hear me say assume, yeah, you're gonna work harder than that very neutral American. Just know I that was three takes to get that to get that right. What was your question? My question is just what what would you want to leave people with?

SPEAKER_02 50:15

What's kind of your your final thought?

SPEAKER_01 50:17

I I think if if you're um if you're unsatisfied with your prayer life, um I I and uh you know, a couple of things. Folks in recovery, um, I want you to know you're my heroes. Like the people who really get into recovery in church, they kind of go from your most difficult friends to the greatest people you've ever met. And I have, I mean, you know, I'm 48 now. All of our friends got divorced, divorced around the age of 42. Um, a lot of it was recovery, you know, you'd find out later. You find you wouldn't find out straight away, but with time that suddenly they have this whole new group of friends that they can't tell you about.

SPEAKER_00 50:54

Where are you going? I was just off to a yeah, to a thing, hang with some guys. That's how naive I am. So could I come? You know, no, you can't.

SPEAKER_01 51:05

Um uh I I I if if you stick with this and you do the 12 steps, it is it is the greatest thing ever. And then I would just say, you know, my encouragement as a pastor would be take some of the bravely, I would encourage you to really weigh taking some uh some of the mystery out of the higher power language and and and and and see, and you I think you've got to do the work figuring out whether that's Jesus or not. Um, I think there's real power uh in that, in that becoming more specific. And if that's the case, Jesus says to to pray this way. And I would maybe just just try it on, give it a crack for a month and just use it as a framework. Most of us, most of us, Americans anyway, you know, you guys pray, know this one, you know, it's it's it's kind of deeply ingrained. So I would, yeah, that that would be my hope. But I, you know, keep keep pursuing healing. Um we're never we're never too far gone. And uh the God of the God of the Bible is um is running towards you even even if that seems unimaginable. That's Jesus was at pains to tell us that. So good luck on your journey, um, cheering you on. And I think I'll say if life is really dark, you're you're not as far away as you think. Probably 30, 60, or 90 days away uh from some serious life-breaking insight. Good luck.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

Man,

Resources, Roundtable, And Closing

SPEAKER_02 52:32

how awesome was that. Matt, brother, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. I really believe this conversation is gonna help a lot of people, especially those who feel spiritually stuck, maybe exhausted, disappointed, or even unsure how to begin praying again. And maybe that's the beauty of the Lord's Prayer. It reminds us that prayer doesn't have to be impressive, it just has to be honest. So if you want to dig deeper into this, I want to encourage you to pick up Matt's new book, The Prayer Experiment. You can find links to purchase the book and even learn more about Matt over on Valiant Living.com slash episode 64. Valiant Living.com episode 64. And then one final reminder our third Thursday, our clinical roundtables coming up soon. These these conversations are designed for clinicians, treatment professionals, or just people passionate about healing and recovery. And you can register now at Valiant Living.com slash roundtable. Well, thanks again for listening to the Valiant Living Podcast. If this episode helped you, share it with someone you love, subscribe where we listen to podcasts, and remember healing is possible, connection matters, and you don't have to walk this road alone. All right, we'll see you next time.