Episode 70 · Love Without Rescuing with Ian and Roxcy Brown

Love can look heroic while it quietly keeps the cycle alive. When someone we love is stuck in addiction, the instinct is to fix, cover, explain, and cushion the consequences. But what if the most loving move is to stop rescuing?

Drew is joined by Ian and Roxcy Brown, co founders of Iron Ridge Recovery in Texas, the first intensive outpatient program in the state built specifically for men with compulsive sexual behavior. Here's the tension at the center of this conversation. On one side, a man saying, in so many words, I need you to stay so I can be okay. On the other, the person who loves him saying, I need you to change so I can be okay. Both are exhausted. Both are stuck. Ian and Roxcy offer a third path.

You'll hear:

• Why sex addiction is rarely one man's secret problem and almost always a family systems crisis, and how a household quietly reorganizes around it, kids included
• Drew on what it took to relieve his own older kids of the adult roles they took on during his treatment
• The addiction cycle in plain terms: preoccupation, ritual, acting out, shame crash, repeat, and why the shame is the driver
• Why remorse is a feeling, not a plan, and why partners are coached to look for patterns over words
• What betrayal trauma does to a partner's nervous system, and why her "crazy" responses are the most normal thing happening
• Carried shame, and the work of separating what's hers from what isn't
• Why the disease model reduces shame without excusing behavior
• Don't steal someone's rock bottom: why cushioning the consequences robs a man of the pain he needs to change
• Compliance versus recovery: why checking the boxes falls apart, and what it looks like when a man stops chasing an outcome he can't control

If you're caught between staying and leaving, or between managing his recovery and giving up, this one is for you.

Learn more about Ian and Roxcy's work at Iron Ridge Recovery https://www.ironridgerecovery.com/

If you or someone you love is struggling with addiction, you don’t have to face it alone.

Valiant Living helps men and their families move from crisis to stability through clinically driven care, community, and hope.

Learn more about our programs at www.valiantliving.com
or call us confidentially at (720) 796-6885 to speak with someone who can help.

Transcript

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When Love Stops Rescuing

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to episode Welcome to episode 70 of the Loving Leverage podcast presented by Valiant Living. I'm Drew Powell, recovery advocate and alumnus of the Valiant Living Men's program, and this is a show about what it takes to move from addiction to connection. Today I've got two guests on. It's Ian and Roxy Brown, co-founders of Iron Ridge Recovery in Texas. And when we set this one up, they sent over a topic that they wanted to dig into, and the title alone stopped me. It is when love stops rescuing. So here's the tension at the center of this conversation. On one side is a man saying, in so many words, I need you to stay so I can be okay. And then on the on the other side is this person who loves him saying, I need you to change so I can be okay. Both of them are exhausted and both of them are stuck. And Ian Roxy walks us through this family system that keeps the cycle going. The difference between supporting a man's recovery and trying to manage it, why a boundary can be one of the most loving things you'll ever hold, and what actually happens when someone stops protecting a man from the consequences his own choices have created. So if you've ever wondered whether stepping back means giving up, this episode is gonna give you a different answer. So here's my conversation with Ian and Roxy Brown.

How Iron Ridge Began

SPEAKER_01 1:13

When we met the first time, it was like at the end of a conference, and I was like out of words completely. It's like, you know, you're on these things, you're doing like, you know, quote unquote business development. It's real relational. But I'm like, we're going to this dinner, and I'm like, I just I got nothing left in the tank. And I saw this guy, I was like, this guy looks pretty cool. And he sits down at the end of the table. So it's just the two of us at the end of the table, and it was like the greatest gift ever. Because I think, Ian, I think you were kind of in a similar boat. And I was like, I just yeah, it was great to have a friend and not feel like we were having to work. We're like, oh, this is a guy who would hang out in real life, too. And so we just kind of hit out at the end of the table and let everyone else do their thing. And it was it was awesome, but we got some.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

I definitely picked a good seat out of uh me and Ian. Ian was down there with all like the heavy hitters having heavy conversations about curriculum, and we're just down there cutting it up. So it was chopping it up.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

It was exactly what the what the doctor ordered, but yeah, and Roxy, it's really nice, really nice to meet you as well. Heard good things and excited for you guys. Opening up Iron Ridge Recovery. Did I say that right?

SPEAKER_04 2:23

Yeah, you did.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

I love I think. Isn't that crazy?

SPEAKER_04 2:29

That's insane.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

I mean, when we first started talking, I was like, it's coming up like in a few months, but man, now it's like here. You guys, by the time this episode releases, I think you'll probably be open for business and rocking and rolling. Oh, that's awesome. How does that feel hearing that out loud?

SPEAKER_02 2:49

It's been dude, it's been a roller coaster, and it's like um, I mean, it's coming fast now, and it's starting to feel more real, but there's been times where it's just been like, man, when will it ever get here? You know, and then of course, just like with all things, there's unforeseen setbacks that like happen or like timelines get pushed. And so I think I mean, I think our original date that we try to set was like July, right? Right, Rox was July or August. And then it we just had to keep going back and back. And uh, but dude, it all it's all been happening for a reason. It's been it's been great. So that's awesome. It's it's been a fun journey.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

I will say, just as a side note, being a marketing guy, I love I love y'all's branding. I love your website. I love just kind of what you've built there. So is it's Iron Ridge, is it Iron Ridge Recovery.com.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Yeah. You gotta go check it out, even if you're just I just I love it. I just I think it looks great, and you guys have done a great job with that. Again, I know branding isn't everything, but I've geek out on that stuff. So great job on putting together a really cool looking uh you know, website. And I I do think that stuff matters, but uh I thought I'd just push people towards that. So

Why Men Need Focused Sex Addiction Care

SPEAKER_01 4:07

well, tell us about it. Tell us a little bit about what you're doing, why you started it. And Roxy, we'll start with you because I just want to hear kind of your side of of the story, kind of what what you do now and why this is a a passion uh for you. I did I did read, is this is this the first intensive outpatient program in Texas um designed specifically for men with compulsive sexual behavior? Is that correct?

SPEAKER_02 4:31

That's correct. I mean, there there's places that do it or touch on it, but they there's nothing that focus ex focuses exclusively on this issue.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

And I think it's important too. Oh, it's so important. It's almost, I guess we're in this world and we live in it, so it's we're used to it all the time, seeing it. But it's when I read that, I was like, that's wild. Like that's that's and I'm happy. I'm happy you guys are are doing this and starting because it's such a such a huge need. So, yeah, tell me the story behind it. Why why are you doing this? Why now? Why specifically for this population? And and uh yeah, why why are we doing this today?

SPEAKER_04 5:11

Um so I guess broad story of it is we've kind of been in this industry and world of addiction for a while now. Been on the business side of substance use for how many years, Ian? I'm not even sure.

SPEAKER_03 5:27

Seven.

SPEAKER_04 5:28

Seven years. And I've always been interested in becoming a therapist. Um, when we first got together, I was finishing out my bachelor's degree, and then we moved to Austin, Texas, so I could go to grad school. Um and immediately I started to become interested in infidelity because I enjoyed the relational work. I liked having more than one person in the room. Um, and then when it eventually became a part of my story, I was introduced to it in a different way where it was impulsive sexual behavior. Um, and we are both sober, we've been in recovery um for a while. I've I haven't drank in nine years, which is a very exciting thing for me.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Congratulations. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 6:14

So addiction, thank you. Addiction wasn't a completely foreign concept to us. Um, and then working in it and then getting the help we needed to walk through this journey. Um, and then Ian came to a point where he was in his career where he was like, I want to do something of my own. Like I want to build something, I want to do something in this space. And that's when I was like, what about sex addiction? Like, we know from our experience how hard it was to find the right kind of help, the right kind of treatment. Like, like my help on my end, like I had to essentially create my own IOP for myself, you know, like find the right, find the right therapist, figure out what kind of group works. Um, I would use AA meetings as places to go and sit and regulate, you know, like give myself this like scheduled out type of recovery and support. Um, so I just felt really passionate about like let's help people with this. Like there's so many treatment centers that help people with such an array of um addictions, but there's nothing out here for this, and like working in the substance use world, we see it as a co-addiction all the time for sure where there is drugs or alcohol and this, yes, but what's only getting treated is the drugs and alcohol. So well said. And so it's just felt like honestly, it felt like the whole universe aligned where it was just like, yeah, this feels really right. Like let's go into this.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Well, such a huge need, and you're exactly right. Uh, we see that at Valiant all the time. Our our our guys that come in with substance, there's always a co-occurring, I shouldn't say always, mostly a co-occurring with some sort of sex addition as well. And and my buddies that were in for substance would always be like, they would kind of look at some of the track that I was on, and they're like, man, as soon as I get through with this, I need to do that too, because I'm definitely in that category. So, and there's a lot of similarities for sure across all addictions, especially when you're getting to like the thing beneath the thing, but there are some nuances, specifically with love addiction and intimacy disorder and certain things like that, that need very specifically addressed on

How Addiction Rewires The Family

SPEAKER_01 8:31

that. And and you guys talk about that because I think uh we tend to see this as like one man's like secret problem, secret addiction, whatever. But what's true, and and you guys call it this, and we would agree at Valiant that it's a it's a family system issue. So talk a little bit about what what happens just to the whole household when addiction moves in, and how to how do the roles like reorganize around secrecy, crisis, monitoring, all that kind of stuff, and whoever, whoever wants it, jump in and take it. Because I know that's a we could probably spend a whole podcast talking just on that alone.

SPEAKER_04 9:09

Yeah. Ian, you want to jump in on that one?

SPEAKER_02 9:14

Well, you're the family systems expert, so I'm happy to.

SPEAKER_04 9:18

I just don't want to take over.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Um she was she was deferring to you, but she was like, Yeah, I I got this.

SPEAKER_04 9:24

I'll let you say family systems. That's the part I'm just so passionate about. You know, like I'm I'm not a CSAT, I'm not gonna be working with the addicts. I'm I'm just passionate about the partners, the family, the children. Um and what happens to a family when addiction is present, specifically compulsive sexual behavior, is is pretty devastating. Like at first, they don't even understand what they are a part of, right? Like oftentimes partners and families will describe this sense of like, I know something's wrong, but I don't know what's wrong. Um, I know this person, my loved one, is not doing well, but I can't identify what's going on or how to help. Um and so the family, like without fully knowing, starts to kind of morph around the most problematic person. So the person who's the most explosive or just the um, even if their dysfunction is more quiet, um, they retreat, they go away. The family system can reorganize around that. Um, so like oftentimes that looks like with their partner, if it's an explosive person, they are walking on eggshells. They're trying to figure out how to not make things go wrong. So they start changing how they're behaving, maybe abandoning themselves in the process of trying to keep peace in the home or try to keep a family together. Right. Um kids will sense something is wrong, and it depends obviously, like what developmental stage they're at, and then adapt to it without also knowing that it's happening. So, like they'll see that their family system is kind of unpredictable. They won't really have those words for it, but they'll understand what topics to avoid, when the room feels off and to go away, um, who to not push because you want to just keep peace in the house. And everyone can kind of take on different roles to make that happen. You know, like sometimes if there's multiple kids, one kid may become the super appeaser. You know, they're just like, I'm gonna be so good and helpful and I'm gonna help make this family healthy, without understanding they're doing that.

SPEAKER_03 11:43

Right.

SPEAKER_04 11:44

Um, but the system reorganizes to essentially keep safety and peace and connection. And sometimes that's something they're aware of that they're doing, but oftentimes it's they're not, they're just responding and moving forward because it's when one person's an addiction, it affects a whole system.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Um and that's man, I just have so much coming up for me when you're sharing that. Because that's I mean, uh so you know well said because you know, I in our our family, even in recovery, what I'm noticing is that especially my older children, when I was in rehab, they definitely took on different roles in the family. And it's been an adjustment even for us to revert back. Like we've had to do a lot of therapy with certain certain kids saying, Hey, we're good, we're stabilized now. We don't need you to be the adult in the family right now. Like, you know, when both parents are going through crisis, especially if you've got older teenage children or adult children that are still living in the home and they're seeing it firsthand, depending on that child's personality, they can really rise up and almost take on like the strong adult role in the family. And we've had to like almost relieve that pressure with some of our kids to say, hey, mom and dad, we're good. We're like stabilized now. Like we're we're like you can. We had a therapy session where they talked about they he drew a line on the board and he talked about going above the line and beneath the line. And I, you know, he's like, you can go back below the line now. Like mom and dad, you know, but it's on one hand, it's beautiful, it's a great survival skill. Like that was amazing that we had kids that like stepped into this like strength role, but also they're kid. Like they don't it was never their job. It was never their job. That's so unfair to ask them to do this, and then to be able to kind of help them like relieve them of their duties and say, Hey, you can, but that's not easy. Like they're used to that's like their defense mechanism, right?

SPEAKER_04 13:54

Yeah, it's it's how they learn to survive in that that chaos when it existed, right? So then when the family system stabilizes and recoveries entered, it's like, oh, you want me to not do my protective role, like how I feel like the family stays sane, like things are gonna blow up, you know. And that's usually when you need a therapist to come in, you know, to to help, you know, yeah, draw that line. Um, because while it is so beautiful that the kids can't adapt in those moments, you do want to relieve them, like you said, of that, of that role. Like go back to being the child, we we've got it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Yeah, yeah. And everyone's timeline is different. Because I mean, I've had, you know, we've had kids as we were doing impact letters and amends process that we dealt with stuff early on. And then for others, it was like two or three years later things were coming up. Like it just was depending on how they responded, it was like, oh, they weren't they weren't quite quite ready then, or they were still holding on to whatever felt safe. And you know, so I think that's another thing, you know, uh in the family system, and maybe we'll talk about this at some point, is we talk about the family system as this one unit, but there's many parts within that system, and each one of those parts need their own individual care. It's not like you work and amends for the whole system the same way, like different people in the system need different things.

SPEAKER_04 15:20

So um my my timeline is totally different, right? Like probably your kids from your wife to the other kid to um yeah, yeah, it's a very complicated system for sure for everyone, for sure.

Delusion, Control, And Loving Leverage

SPEAKER_02 15:36

And then I feel like I mean, for the addict when they're in that space, right? They're in just like full fight or flight, and they're they have such a distorted perception of reality, and they don't even know what's real and what isn't, and just how they've caused all this. Because I mean, usually that point they're still pointing fingers, like, oh, why can't you just act normal or just be okay? And it, I mean, it's it's the definition of like dysfunction and chaos, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Well, talk about that for a minute, Ian. I'm glad you brought that up because I definitely relate to that side because I think a lot of a lot of us addicts, especially when we're in, you know, when we're in crisis or whatever, they're I'll speak for myself. I had such a high control and I still felt like even in my and I I almost have to laugh at myself looking back because I would I was almost thinking, man, if I I can still figure my way out of this, I can still like if if I could just talk to my kids, if I could just talk to my wife, if I could just whatever, I can I can fix it. And you talked about like just the illusion, like what's going on in our brains. It felt like for me, every everything I thought was rational, it was like I was exactly upside down, like everything I thought would help would hurt, and everything I thought was gonna be bad for me was what I needed, and it was just it was insane.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

And I I think that's where the disease model really fits, right? It's because this does center in our brain, and it's the way that we think, and our thinking is not gonna get us out of this. Uh totally. And yeah, I mean, dude, the the delusion and like the self-deception that has to be happening when you're in that active addiction cycle. I mean, it's it's real.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

Well, we talk to guys all the time, and I'm sure you do too, where it's like it's it's so hard to convince these uh these guys, and I'm sure it, I'm sure it happens with women too. We just tend to we're we're dealing with the male population at Valiant, but um they're so convinced of what they believe is the right thing to do next, or what they need, or I can't lose my job, or I can't. I mean, they just have these things that they're held on so tight. And that's why we call the we call the podcast uh loving leverage now. We I don't know if we told you, but we changed the brand and name of it. But the reason why we're calling it that is because most of these guys, if they don't have some sort of loving leverage in their life to get well, they're not gonna think their selves to like healing and help. And like I would imagine, and I hope this isn't true, but I would imagine guys aren't gonna like show up to Iron Ridge and be like, hey, I'm a sex addict and I'm here to check myself in and I need to get help, but whatever. Usually there's some sort of crisis and someone saying, You're gonna do this, or I'm out, or whatever it might be, you know, and they're like, Okay, I'm gonna do that. So talk a little bit about that. I'm just I'm curious about addiction cycle and just kind of why are even how do we get through to these addicts that are holding on so tightly to what they feel is safe.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

Yeah, and and I think that's okay for them to come in with that that fear of losing things, whether it's like the job, the career, the money, the wife, the family, whatever. Yeah, that that's okay, right? To get them in the door, but that's not going to create lasting change, right? And when you're talking about the the addiction cycle, it it's a longer cycle, like we we talk about it than just like the acting out, right? So it's the the preoccupation, yeah, ritualization, the acting out, and then the guilt and shame, and it repeats. And so it takes a level of awareness of what's going on. Like, what are these attachment wounds or like these core beliefs that are driving you to start the process before you actually get to the acting out? Because, like we were just saying, like, usually there's such a high level of delusion, they they can't see themselves, they don't know what's driving the bus. And so they also don't know when that cycle starts. You know, they they think it's just the behavior, and if we're we're not getting to what that behavior is actually doing for them, we can't change the behavior, we can't stop the behavior, right? Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

What is that behavior actually doing underneath when you talk about because you talked you talked about that, and I have it written down. Preoccupation, just to kind of go back through what you said, because I think that's

The Addiction Cycle In Plain Terms

SPEAKER_01 20:30

so good. You got the preoccupation, and even if you guys want to unpack a little bit of what this would be, I think that'd be helpful. But preoccupation, ritual, acting out, then they crash into some shame and despair, and then it repeats. Preoccupation, ritual, acting out, crash, shame and despair, and repeats. Can we go a layer deeper just into that and find out what's underneath it?

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Yeah, so I I think with the with the preoccupation, right? You're you're it's that's where where it starts, is like that that seed's been planted. That's all your thoughts are. That's like um, I mean, it can be anything from objectifying women to um starting to starting to um take up your time just obsessing over the fact of like doing it. Then the ritualization part is whether that is like cruising around areas you shouldn't be in, looking for places that like escorts are found, or start cruising different websites, and the acting out is the actual sexual behavior. Gotcha. Um and then inevitably afterwards you're you're you're struck with that guilt shame of what you just did. And that the guilt, the guilt and shame is really like the driver that drives the whole cycle. Right. And so it just it's this perpetual cycle that you're stuck in. Yeah, I think that I think it's important too, because like even after discovery. Or after you know you're you're caught or the consequences happen, you can feel sorry, you can feel real remorse. But unless you understand like how this what's driving the bus to this cycle and what the actual acting out is doing, whether that's numbing, you're looking for validation, you're looking to um you know get relief, whatever it is. Like, unless you understand what's motivating the acting out, your your your chance of recovery is not not good.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

That's totally true. Well, and I like to refer to it as like that these things that a lot of times people treat are actually it's actually the medication. So it's like this we're almost like if you're not careful, you're you're actually medicating the medication, which sounds ridiculous. It's like, no, these are the medications we've been using. Everyone's medicating something. If we don't get to what they're actually medicating, then we're, you know, they're we're never gonna wean them off to use that those terms off the medication if we don't actually get to the symptom, if we're just addressing the medication itself. And so, Roxy, I'm sure you see this constantly in the line of work that you're doing, is helping people get beneath, like you're saying, you got this cycle going on, but you can't just treat the thing that they're medicating the cycle with. So when it comes to the the sh the shame phase um that produces something family, it it tears, then there's the remorse, there's all this happening. Talk a little bit about that phase and and even you know, why do remorse and promises alone never add up to recovery? Because I think that's what Ian said. A lot of times when people go through, man, we're so sorry. And that could be real genuine. Like it's not, it doesn't always have to be gaslighting or manipulation. I think sometimes the guilt and shame sets in and there's genuine remorse. I am so sorry, and I promise I will never do this again. But little do they know there is no way, if as long as they're in this cycle and they're still medicating, that they are going to be able to hold to that promise.

SPEAKER_04 24:13

Yeah. Um, I mean, when it comes to those moments, right, where maybe there is some level of discovery or the whole discovery, whatever it is, there's this crisis moment in the in the partnership where the person is pleading for forgiveness, they're making promises. Um, and like you said, right? Like they probably truly mean it. They probably truly are sorry and do feel remorse. The problem, or not the problem, but just the reality of that situation is remorse is simply just a feeling, right? Like it's stating that you feel a certain way. Um, and while it's and can be kind of perceived as like a safety factor of like, oh, they feel bad for this, I believe they won't do this again. Or even the addict saying, like, I'm so sorry, I won't do this again, and believing they won't do it again. Um, that is just stating a feeling. And so, unless it's followed by some sort of intervention, some sort of treatment, meetings, therapy, something to help them address what this medication is doing for them, um it's not going anywhere, right? Like, I forget who was saying it, but like recovery is just what is it? It was it's a series of just like consistent steps, you know, it's like consistent with going to your meetings, um, calling your sponsor, going to therapy, understanding yourself and kind of breaking down these mental walls that you built to be able to do the things that you were able to do.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:03

Um, and so without action following remorse, it's just a feeling. Um that's why like a lot of the work around partners is getting them to, and it's not that you want to have them um not believe in their partner, but look for evidence and patterns over words because the words, while they may be impactful, aren't gonna get us from point A to point B.

Remorse Is A Feeling, Action Matters

SPEAKER_04 26:34

Like no amount of can change us, just like with any addiction, right? Like the meth addict, it can be so, so over the consequences of what's going on, but they still pick up that needle. Um, and so it's it's about action.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Well, it's what's coming up for me while you're sharing is that it's it makes sense when you break it down because at some point the pain or the trauma or whatever we're medicating is gonna come back at some point. And in order for us to feel okay and survive that pain, we're gonna have to use the medicine again. And sometimes it's a different medicine. You guys see this. I mean, sometimes we got guys that come through for one thing and they'll they'll come back for another. Because if you don't treat the actual symptom, then at some point it's it's un even unfair to yourself to ask yourself to like if you're not actually getting healing for the pain, it's gonna come back. There's no way you're you're gonna have to medicate it. You know, you're gonna have to do something. And and what you guys do at Iron Ridge is you actually help with how do we deal with the symptom, how do we deal with the pain, how do we deal with the trauma, so that you don't have to run for the medication. Because this is about even really being kind to yourself as an as the addict of like, okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

I love I love how you're you're I mean, the the use of like calling it medicine and like what is the medicine doing? It's so important to understand like what's driving that, like what yeah, whatever it's numbing the whatever. It's like, dude, are the is this attachment wounds? Are this is this like a core operating belief that you've held your entire life that's like driving these behaviors? What is it that's because like what you guys are saying is like these external motivators as addicts, we're it's really easy to get the things back, get get things back to to explain. We're so sorry, we're never gonna do that again. We'll make promises, swear on the Bible, whatever it is. And life can get normal. And if that if your entire motivation for recovery was for things to just stop and the chaos to stop, and you don't know what medicine was medicating, you're gonna turn back to it, whether it's in a cross-addiction sense or like you're going back to the same behaviors, yeah. Um yeah, so I love the the medicine metaphor because I mean it's true.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

A lot of the work that we're doing that you guys do, that we do at Valiant is just helping understand or really reframe and and approach this whole thing different than what most of us have grown up

Shame, Stigma, And The Disease Model

SPEAKER_01 29:19

with. Because even this, there's so much shame around specifically in sex addiction. Let's talk about that for a minute because that's the world you guys are going into. But it's really easy to slip into this mode of you mentioned disease model earlier, like almost like sickness versus evil or sickness versus um what's the right word? Moral failure. Moral failure, you know, it's you know, especially in the world I came from, the church world, we love to call pastors moral failures, right? And that's not untrue, but it's also not specific to them. It's like it's like that's not just a pastoral thing. That is a human a human thing, and it's less of a moral failure and more of a like a disease that is going on. And a lot of it is we're reframing this from like, you're not a terrible, bad, gross, disgusting person. You're a sick person that needs healing that found something that gives you temporary relief. I mean, how do you guys do that work to really help people, especially as they're first coming in? They're coming in with so much shame, so much stigma. You know, Roxy, I know you have to see this all the time with the people that you work with, almost helping them reorient their view of what's actually happening in their life.

SPEAKER_04 30:42

Yeah. I think there's so much stigma. Like, we've come so far with addiction, right? Like we can talk about alcohol and drug addiction a lot more freely. There's more acceptance around it, but there is still historically a stigma. And then infidelity, sexual addiction, that is another stigma. So, like sex addiction is just this monster of a stigma. And, you know, um, people come in on both ends, right? The partner and the uh the addict with just so much shame. Shame that this is their story. Um, and it's worked about in different ways with each person. But um, Ian Birdwell, our clinical director, one of the things I really like about his approach with these people are is like before we're like, we're not just coming in aggressively, like, get honest, what's your story? Tell us what you've done. First thing we're gonna do is like orient you to your reality, right? Um, what are what does this cost you? You know, this coping mechanism that you developed that you're keeping in secret. Um, what does it cost you to get here? And like really taking a look at the damage of yourself, essentially.

SPEAKER_03 31:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:56

Um, it's hard to get honest when there's so much shame.

SPEAKER_03 32:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 32:01

Um, and for women or the partners, not just women, but partners of sexual addicts, there is this idea of like carried shame. Um, I think it's Michelle Mays in the Betrayal Bind who talks about carried shame a lot. And um it's there's this view that it's like we're carrying shame that's not really ours, right? Like it's it's shame that like for actions that we had no control over that we didn't know were happening. Um and and so there's a piece with the partner work where it is separating what's theirs and what's not theirs, right? Like what's not to carry here, like right, right. Um but then there's also the level of this is the kind of psychoeducation of like this is sexual addiction. And I feel like we see different responses in that area, you know. Um, if they're already introduced to the addiction world, you can kind of wrap your head around, okay, sexual addiction, neural pathways, dopamine seeking, uh, chosen coping strategies, all of that. If you have no addiction past and you're coming up to this and it feels like your partner has morally failed, um sometimes I've seen kind of a pushback on the addiction model because it's like, well, then we're giving them an excuse. Um saying that X, Y, Z. And to label this as addiction is to not excuse the behavior. Like the behaviors were acceptable, right? Um to understand it as addiction does lessen the shame. Like, yeah, and it's not to write it away, um, but it's to view it as a disease, right? Like this is a brain that is seeking relief in its frozen ways.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

I'm so glad that you brought that up because I I do think that, especially with for betrayed partners, one thing that we hear a lot is we are not this. I'm so glad you talked about not excusing the behavior. Like, I think from the addict side, there is a complete ownership. Like, I think sometimes people can hear, well, it's a disease, and it's almost like, well, we're letting them off the hook. And especially when there's been so much hurt and betrayal and whatever. Um, for some, like for my wife, it was actually a relief because there was some understanding around the why. It was helpful. But then for others, it's like, oh, real convenient, call it a disease. Now he's sick and he's the victim, or she's the sick and the victim, whatever the case might be. And you're like, that can be really, really tough. And I'm glad you brought that up because I think, especially in betrayal trauma, and I'm I'm so happy that you guys are are making this a huge emphasis of what you're doing, because even a lot of time in in the sex addiction world, it can be all about the addict. And then, but you're like, but you've got this traumatic, this traumatized partner who doesn't have the same amount of resources and help, and they're dealing with a lot of real-time stuff, and then some people will come at them and say, Well, you're just as sick or you're a codependent, and you're whatever. And that may be true, but what they need immediately is care and healing and you know, all

Betrayal Trauma And Partner Support

SPEAKER_01 35:19

that stuff. And I love that you talked about that shame because I think sometimes for betrayed partners, I just want to touch on this briefly, is that it almost feels like you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Like if I decide to stay, well, I'm weak and I'm a pushover and I'm whatever. Or in some circles, it's like if I decide to leave, you know, it's like, well, you got to be like there's certain camps you should be more loyal, or you may be dedicated, or how people like so a lot of times these betrayed partners get stuck in this middle ground of like I I feel shame on both sides. How do you help these betrayed partners kind of because that is a decision? A lot of people are trying to decide, do I stay? And do I, do I, you know, or should I should I go and start fresh? And it's it's extremely confusing.

SPEAKER_04 36:04

Yeah. Um, I've talked to a few people and we joke that it's like the decision is between two piles of crap. Like neither is neither is good, neither is great at the moment, you know, like choose your hard, you know. Um and typically where I lie in this is so the partners are in crisis, like they are in crisis, and it's true, like historically, this industry just really helps the addicts, and then the betrayed partners are left with their trauma, usually untreated, um almost flailing, right? Like maybe they're home with the kids, they're the ones still making the money. They're what they've had to pick up everything that the addict had to drop to go get treatment. And I heard this joke that it's like, you know, the betrayer has essentially shot their partner, an ambulance comes, it picks up the shooter, it runs over the person who's been shot and drives away to go help the betrayer.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Right.

SPEAKER_04 37:08

And you're just sitting there like, what?

SPEAKER_01 37:11

What just happened? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:15

Um and and then it gets worse where, especially historically, I'm happy I wasn't a part of this industry a long time ago when it was viewed as co-addiction because that blows my mind. Um but the idea, um, right? So the betrayal after discovery, the partner whose world has just been completely shifted upside down, they do appear more out of control. They do appear more emotional, and the untrained eye will look at these two people and be like, oh, that's the problem. That's the person who makes sense, you know.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Um the addict is like all put together and like I got this, I'm in control and whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:06

Uh-huh. And they're or they're relieved, right? Their secrets out, the weight is off their shoulder.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

They just vomited all over everybody and feel better. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:14

Yeah. So they're feeling better than ever. And the partners over there are losing their mind. And there hasn't been a lot of great treatment options. Like it's getting so much better. Um, but it's also kind of hard. You have to really seek a trained professional in this. You know, I've talked to a lot of partners who've been kind of traumatized by uh clinicians who don't mean to, but like will go from a different kind of model that just doesn't apply to sex addiction. Right. And there will be a lot of victim blaming and just the mental confusion. So finding the right therapist, absats trained, um, someone who understands betrayal trauma is so important for them.

SPEAKER_03 38:57

Right.

SPEAKER_04 38:58

Um, because what I like to tell them is like the most normal thing that's happening in this entire scenario is your crazy responses.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

Like that's right.

SPEAKER_04 39:13

You responding in these elevated ways or in these ways that are uncomfortable straight up for other people to see, for you to experience, you don't recognize yourself, is a completely understandable and predictable response to a profound attachment trauma.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 39:31

Um it makes complete sense.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

It does, it makes total sense. Yeah. Well, and Ian, too, I'm I'm, you know, as she's talking, the I'm so glad that you guys mentioned, or Roxy, that you mentioned like this is why you can't navigate this alone without good, good professionals. And there, and I know that sounds self-serving because we're in the space and all this thing, but here's what's true there's so much going on at the same time. So you just did a great job explaining what's going on in the betrayed partner's mind. What's also happening in the addict's mind is this is like a fatal disease, but instead of getting sympathy for it, I've actually hurt all the people around me that would normally rally around me to come and help. So it's like, I don't even want to compare it to another disease because I don't want I think it gets unfair. But I just think there's this thing that's happening in you, if it really is a disease, but it's not a disease that just happened to you. It's a disease that happened to all the other people around you. So now if you're gonna get support help, usually it's from strangers because the people that you love the most or love you the most are the ones that don't want to are hurt by you. So that's also uh why you need professionals to help you guide through that, because that feels really lonely and isolating as well.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

Yeah, that's that's one thing that's one of the things that like drove us to doing Iron Ridge, it's because like the relational harm is so great in sex addiction, and it does, it affects the entire family system. And we're we do a disservice when we treat the the partner side or the family side as an afterthought and not its own treatment, right? Uh, because we're we're putting the addicts, you know, the addicts just got better somewhere for 30, 45 days, 60, 90, whatever it is. And you know, they have all this like awareness now and they're feeling good, and like they've done all this therapy and work that you know they've gotten to this place and they get put back into the family system. And the family system, their recovery is just now starting. And you know, what what's inevitably gonna inevitably gonna happen is like dysregulation is gonna hit the the partner of the family system is gonna lash out. And to an addict, especially a sex addict that usually has like some type of attachment wound, whenever that's happening, it's they're they're hearing you don't love me, you hate me, instead of like mad. Because again, like our perception of reality is usually so skewed and so skewed to selfish motives that that will also drive that shame. And the shame is the the driver for the entire addiction cycle, like we were talking before.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Totally, totally.

Boundaries, Consequences, And Rock Bottom

SPEAKER_01 42:10

Well, let's let's go into this because I want to talk about a little bit more around discovery and just the the use of the word opportunity. You can course correct that word if that's not the right word, but the opportunity that exists around discovery for real help and healing, and the importance of like um leaning in in that moment, like almost you know, you using our word leveraging, but leveraging that moment for help and healing. But that's a critical moment in the story of, especially of a couple or in a family system where something has come to light. Now you're Roxy, you said the trade partner's extremely traumatized, they're they're going crazy because they're they're just like their world got turned upside down, but they're also being asked to like set boundaries and set all these different things, and it just feels like a lot. So, how do you help walk couples through discovery and then also the consequences versus protecting and all that gets really, really messy?

SPEAKER_04 43:19

Yeah. Um, I keep relating it back to like drug addiction and alcohol addiction, but that's just because we have so much experience there in the past. Right. But there's this idea that we coach, I feel like it's more so parents around, um, but probably partners too, when it comes to like their kid going into rehab or um someone's addiction has come to light. It is a natural response of a loving family system to want to help the person who is unwell, to want to pad the consequences, to um help where you can. Right, like you see a problem, you're good at solving problems. I can help here. Um, one of the things that I coach people around is like don't don't do that. Um when it relates to the addiction side, it's like there's this idea of don't steal someone's rock bottom from them. Like someone has to be in the pit that they dug themselves to notice, oh my god, I can't live like this. This is really bad.

SPEAKER_03 44:33

Right.

SPEAKER_04 44:34

Like, this is really bad. And like, even though recovery or treatment or whatever the thing is, that's also doesn't sound that appealing, it's gonna sound a little better than how bad my life has gotten.

SPEAKER_03 44:47

Right.

SPEAKER_04 44:48

And so like what it's like, don't steal their rock bottom. They have to feel the consequences of their actions and behaviors to be motivated essentially to want to change. It really is an opportunity, you know. Um like it is a place where someone can use that pain to then drive something better. Um but if a family, partner, or the spouse, whoever comes in and they they make it better, or they they they cushion the consequences, or um they make it all about the addict feeling better, oftentimes the addict then isn't totally aware of how bad it is. Right. They're just like, oh, I mean, this is like not that great, but it's not horrible.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

Right, right. Well, Ian, from your perspective, why is it so important? And really kind of the the heart of where we're driving in this episode, you know, why why is it so important to remove that cushion that causes these destructive behaviors? That is honestly what makes genuine change even possible. Why is that important from the addict side?

SPEAKER_02 45:58

Yeah, so I mean, usually addicts, we have to feel real consequences to make life as it is unsustainable, right? And that's what drives change. Like we talk about pain is the touch point of growth, right? And they if you're if you're continuously cushioning and hiding things and like uh this the family system is trying to stop them from hitting that bottom, you're robbing them of like that pain that they need to actually change.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Yeah, so true. Let's do this. I wanna, I wanna, we're gonna have to have more conversations because this is amazing. You guys are incredible, and I feel like we're just barely scratching the surface of all the things that

What Treatment Looks Like At Iron Ridge

SPEAKER_01 46:41

we could talk about. But I do want to drill down a little bit on um just your program. Roxy, if you could talk a little bit about just kind of practically what are you, what are you gonna be offering? And you're gonna be directing the partner and family side of the program, is that right? What is that, what is that gonna look like? And how are you gonna be able to really help these these uh betray partners, family systems? What is that gonna look like for Iron Ridge?

SPEAKER_04 47:06

So this, I mean, I have so many dreams for it. Like I picture this going very big. I just want to help everyone in this area. But where we're starting is like this, we're very much using this as a trauma model. Like what you're experiencing is an attachment injury, you're responding in to trauma. Um, and so we treat it both as trauma, um, walking through the trauma. Um, but there's also the psychoeducation piece, like what's going on? What is this? Um, so in the AppSatz model, there's three stages. And so what we're viewing this as is like the partners are coming in typically after a discovery, you know, their partner seeking a higher level of care, or they're coming down from a higher level of care and they're coming home for the first time.

SPEAKER_03 47:57

Right.

SPEAKER_04 47:57

Um, and so either way, they're kind of in phase one where it is like their world is still rocked. Um, so a big focus in the beginning is like on their safety and stabilization. Like we are not going to focus on the addict. We are not here to discuss um in detail right now their behaviors, what they do or don't do. Not that it's off top like off topic, right? But our main goal, our main focus is your stabilization, safety, happiness, and values. And oftentimes it's stabilizing themselves to get there. So it's a lot of like nervous system, you know, like your body, grounding, um, connecting yourself with your values again, separating your shame from their shame. Um, and then, you know, like I don't encourage decision making on the rest of their life in this stage, right? When you're your head on the ground and you are just in pieces, you know, you're not going to be making a decision from like a values-based place. Totally. Um so it's like sometimes it's kind of helping people pause, you know, to a degree. It's like I, you don't have to know what you're doing yet. Right now, what you're doing is you're gathering enough information to make an informed decision that is for you.

SPEAKER_03 49:17

Right.

SPEAKER_04 49:18

Um, so what's being offered is individual therapy weekly, um, and then group therapy. Group does really well with this population because people feel so alone and so shameful. And to be near other people who have this similar type story is really important. Um, so for them, the partners, it's looking at like, you know, like two to three hours a week of therapeutic support. Um, my goals are much bigger than that, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:52

Starting there. Well, and similarly, Ian, you you know, you you talk about a man's motivation is often in those three stages as well, right? You got the early recovery, you got the deeper recovery, the mature. Talk a little bit about that and how how you plan on working with that population.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

Yeah. So, I mean, like we said, like the fear of the consequence, like opening the door into recovery, that that's fine, but it can't stay there because your your recovery is still dependent on an outcome that you cannot control. Right. Like, I if if she stays, I will change. You know, it's the same thing of like um when we talk about like compliance versus recovery. You know, if you have uh if you have a checklist and you're going through the checklist and you're doing it in a performative manner because hey, look, look at how great I am. I I went to a meeting, I did these things. Yeah, but if you're not actually looking at your identity, and and we kind of talk about you with these men, like that that come in, it's like they have three versions of themselves, right? The the fear of who they could be, the man that they are, and who they want to be. And really the work is aligning and integrating all of those and moving away because like there's so much shame and guilt that drives these behaviors, and there's shame and guilt in just the behaviors themselves, right? And so making sure that they don't have that shame-based personality where they can say, Hey, I have done bad things, that doesn't make me a bad person. Because if if you live in like I'm just a bad person, you're gonna continue to have bad behaviors, right? Right, and you're gonna continue that cycle, right? And so, and that's why I think it's so important doing what we're doing with Iron Ridge, where you're all with guys that have similar issues, right? The the core drivers, the attachment ones, they might look different, but the the the core acting out is gonna be the same, right? Which opens up for like real and authentic conversations to help, you know, get past that shame and that guilt of like, hey, I'm not in this alone. There are other people who are gone through this.

SPEAKER_01 52:18

I mean, I I'm so glad you touched on the performative side too, because that definitely was my story. Like, I was just gonna be the best client that ever went to Valiant and I was gonna ace this thing and they were gonna let me out on good behavior because I'm gonna check all the boxes and all the, you know, all that kind of stuff. And the truth is that's not where the real work happens. I mean, honestly, if I was smarter, I would have opened, if I wanted to get through the program faster, I would have surrendered earlier. I would have opened up earlier. That's I mean, that's the key to to really transformational work, is when you just let go. And and so I appreciate you talking about just checking all the boxes because you can do all the therapy, you can go to you can go to Valiant for 90 days, you can leave Valiant and go to Iron Ridge and be a part of that, and you can check all those boxes. But until you're really ready to like surrender and to let go and to to let yourself be fully immersed into this process of healing and change and transformation, you know, that's why we see people relapse and go back through. It's like you you can't like control your way through it or perform your way through it, I should say. And so I'm really grateful you touched on that. But if we're looking just aspirationally for a minute, what is this paint a picture for what does this look like? What does this look like for couples that make the shift? Where it's like, I don't have to codependently manage your recovery. I can be okay even if you're not okay. Like all the things that we're working to get couples through, from your perspective, what does that what does that look like for you guys?

SPEAKER_02 53:43

Yeah. So I think, well, in the beginning of the podcast, we were talking about what that dysfunction looks like, right? And like how chaotic it is. And for a family in recovery, he it's you have a on the addict side, you have a man that's not doing, he's not just going through the checklists, he's not doing the things for an outcome that's outside of himself. He's doing it because he's like actually integrated into his identity and he's moved from like, if I do this, will she not leave me? To like, who is the man that I want to be? And like, am I fully integrated in who I am when I walk outside these doors and my wife isn't next to me?

unknown 54:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:24

Am I having conversations with people that I would have in front of my wife? You know, and so and then on the on the betrayed partner side and the family side, it's having, you know, making boundaries and using love as a leverage, but not as a punishment because they're fully defined in who they are and where they stop, and you know, they're choosing to be there, but they're not gonna be a part of the problem. Yeah, and they make that clear. Yeah, I'm sure I'm Roxy can ask that too. Yeah, it's really good.

SPEAKER_01 55:00

That's right on so I like to kind of close out episodes with this this question.

Hope, Next Steps, And Resources

SPEAKER_01 55:06

If for the for the man that's listening in the car right now who feels like their their story is already written, or maybe there's uh a person who loves him who's running out of out of hope, or feels like they've tried everything. What what would you want them to hear from from the day?

SPEAKER_02 55:29

You wanna go first, Rox?

SPEAKER_04 55:33

Yeah, I'll go. Um mine I think is for that man, it's hope is not lost. Get into action. Get into action. Um, that's the best thing you can do for your family, for yourself, for your children. Um be brave in your actions.

SPEAKER_00 55:53

Yeah, it's good. It's helpful.

SPEAKER_02 55:57

Yeah. And for me, it's man, you you're not alone. There is help out there. And as scary as it is to pick up the phone and call, it's the best gift you can give yourself, your family, your friends, your loved ones. And um you can you can just like the addiction started with small changes of behavior, you can walk your your way out of the woods, and there's people that that are here to help.

SPEAKER_01 56:29

Well, that's Ian and Roxy Brown, and you can learn more about their work at Iron Ridge Recovery, and I'll put that link in the show notes. And what Ian and Roxy Brown describe today is the heart of the loving leverage framework created by our founder, Michael Danin, and it's that love stays close without rescuing. Two people taking ownership of their own recovery instead of trying to control each other. So if you're living inside that tension right now, head to Valiant Living.com to learn more. Or if you're ready to talk with someone today, call us at 720-669-1285. That's the admissions line for our men's program, and a real person picks up when you call. The show notes and links for the episode today are at Vaniant Living.com slash episode 70. So if this episode helped you, please share it with the man who needs to hear it or with the person who loves him. And subscribe so you don't miss what's coming next. Alright, I'm Drew Powell. You've been listening to the Loving Leverage Podcast. We'll see you next time.