Three Perspectives on Sex Addiction: The Addict, The Partner, and The Therapist

The most dangerous part of process addiction often isn’t what people can see, it’s what shame does in the dark. We sit down as a host, a betrayed partner, and a clinical forensic psychologist to map the real terrain of sex addiction recovery, betrayal trauma, and the moment families realize that weekly therapy and willpower aren’t enough. If inpatient rehab sounds “extreme,” we unpack why treatment can still be life or death when the risk is spiraling secrecy, escalating behavior, and suicidality driven by exposure and self-hatred.

We also get practical about the family system. Betrayal trauma can feel like losing your grip on reality because denial and minimization keep rewriting the story. From a clinical perspective, we talk about why partners doubt themselves, what “provisional trust” looks like when everything is on fire, and why specialized support like a CSAT can change the whole trajectory. Healing requires more than stopping behaviors; it requires rebuilding safety, restoring self-trust, and addressing the attachment injuries that addiction creates.

Then we go straight at the barrier we hear most: “I can’t leave my job.” We explore how work becomes identity, why control and negotiation are part of the addicted brain, and why the longer treatment is delayed the more relationships and reputations fracture. We end with a legacy question that cuts through the noise: when your life is over, what do you want your family to remember, your title or your presence?

If this conversation helps, subscribe, share it with someone who’s stuck, and leave a review so more families can find real support. What’s the biggest fear that keeps people from getting treatment?

If you or someone you love is struggling with addiction, you don’t have to face it alone.

Valiant Living helps men and their families move from crisis to stability through clinically driven care, community, and hope.

Learn more about our programs at www.valiantliving.com
or call us confidentially at (720) 796-6885 to speak with someone who can help.

Transcript

Introductions And Why We’re Here

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Well, we were just talking. Dr. MD has had a morning of dealing with sex addicts, and so if she's a little edgy, you'll know why. Um I'm joined by the the honorable Dr. Stephanie MD uh from Valiant Living, our chief growth officer. And um you have been on the podcast before, but it was, I think it was the um the session we did together.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Yeah, at Winter Symposium.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Winter Symposium. So um Dr. MD is on our on our leadership team at Valiant. Um and then, of course, my lovely bride, Jamie, is back with us again. She was on the podcast on the last episode, and this will be fun because we're gonna we're gonna have a conversation with three of us and kind of bring in the the clinical perspective on this. Um and so getting Jamie back two in a row is nothing short of a act of God and a miracle.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

That is true.

Upcoming Conference And Free Roundtables

SPEAKER_00 0:56

But thanks for being willing to jump back on. I what I'd love to do um a couple things first. Um I want to hear a little bit of just uh uh story, Dr. Genby, for those that haven't met you yet or don't don't know you a little bit about who you are and what you do. But I want to I want to promo. Is it okay if I if I promo and push a couple things right here at the beginning of the podcast? I want to I want to promo the three of us are actually gonna be speaking at a at a conference in the Nashville area at Murfreesboro doing a breakout, which I'm excited about. Um that's with Litpath. And so I just wanted to kind of promote the great work they're doing. Um they're they're doing the Hope for Healing conference. It's it's June 25th through the 27th. It's in Murfreesboro. Um, great conference, a lot of great thought leaders there. The three of us are going to be doing a session on kind of what we're talking about today, you know, just the different perspectives. Um, you can go to CSBD hopeforhealing.com. It's quite the quite the website, but that stands for compulsive sexual behavior disorder. CSBD hopeforhealing.com. Um, and then the other thing I wanted to shout out real quick is um when this episode airs tomorrow, April 16th, we're doing our first clinical round table on on loving leverage, talking about this. Um, Dr. Envy, can you kind of unpack a little bit of your vision that you have for these roundtables that we're gonna be doing every third Thursday of the month? They're free, free virtual roundtables, but I'd love for you to talk a little bit about why we're doing this.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Well, uh, I think it's to bring the community together, right? There's so many different perspectives when it comes to addiction. There's so many different roles that people play. It touches physicians who um who have patients who are struggling with addiction. It touches families, it touches employers, right? When people don't go get help or when the family is not able to repair in that way. It touches treatment centers and addictions evolve over time. And so we start to see new things pop up, we start to see uh different concerns or problems um in the treatment of addiction or the treatment of addiction with certain personality structures or certain traumas and what works best one way or another. Um so it's really just kind of pulling in the community, and when I mean community, anyone whose life has been touched by addiction and having just open, candid conversations about, you know, this one that's coming up is about loving leverage. And so how can we change that word leverage, which feels very negative and manipulative and uh boundary violating, right? Or weaponizing into a term that really means what we need it to meet, which is showing up with compassion, with empathy, and setting healthy boundaries to not only provide safety for the addict, but to provide safety for everyone else in their lives, right? Um I just I think if we can come together as a community, we can have better, a better understanding, we can have a greater network. So when something pops up at Valiant that maybe isn't our specialty, I can remember doing a round table with you know, begin again institute. And I'm like, hey, you know what? They have a knack for this type of personality, or they have a specific treatment that helps with this specific thing. Let me reach out to them and let me see if we could partner so that this client, this person, this addict, this family gets everything they absolutely need to be as successful as they possibly can. So taking away the silos, opening up open communication, learning how to navigate, kind of working together and collaborating ahead of time so that when there is a client involved, we're all familiar with one another, we all know each other's specialties, and we know where to go, you know?

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Yeah, well said. So that's happening third Thursday of every month. Um, this first one on April 16th, nine o'clock mountain time. Um you go to ValiantLiving.com slash roundtable and you can register. It's free. Just let us know you're coming. Um can we can we tease out who some of the panelists are on this? Are we allowed to to uh let people know who's who's gonna be on this first one?

SPEAKER_02 5:29

Yeah, I mean, I'm most excited that uh we've got Jamie coming back uh to do our first round table outside of a podcast, right? Um and I I always love doing stuff with you and Jamie because I think it's it really just shows hope. It shows what healing on both sides can accomplish as a family, it shows what hard work is needed, it shows time and how time can also help build some of that trust and structure. Um and it just shows like, I don't know, just humanness behind all of this, all of the things, right? So um we have that. We also have uh JR that will be coming. JR is one of our clinicians here at Valiant. Uh he has been running our detox and RTC level of care for a while. So he's got a different view on loving leverage because you know, when he sees people through Medicaid, sometimes they don't have families and their families look a little different than what we would consider uh the family member coming in and assisting. So it's gonna be really nice hearing from him how to utilize loving leverage when that loving leverage is not maybe what we think up immediately.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Um also JR was my case manager when I was in treatment. Shout out to JR. He's got some stories.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

Uh, and then you've secured a couple people too. So what is that?

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Super happy to have Brooke. Donnahu's gonna come and jump on with us. Brooke works as kind of like a family liaison. She works with a lot of our families while our guys are in treatment. She's amazing. She's been on the podcast before, but does a lot of great work with um the family system. Um, whether that's a betrayed spouse or that's a parent, or it's a child, you know, she's she's gonna jump on. And then Ed, Ed Tilton agreed to come on. So from Beginning Institute, one of the founding members or early members of Valiant Living. So he kind of we're standing on his shoulders in a lot of ways, an amazing guy in the space, but he's gonna come in and um jump on. So and I I think is it isn't the boss man? Is he is he gonna pop in maybe? Is is that have we secured Michael?

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Yeah, that's my understanding. Uh, we will have uh Deneen there as well. He uh he is he is magical sometimes when it comes to loving leverage and and just kind of recognizing what that family system needs quickly to put out the fire, um, and then how to kind of systematically start to heal the system together. So uh I'm excited. I think this was gonna be fun.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

It's gonna be great. So be sure to register and jump in on that before we jump into this conversation because I know there's a lot we want to cover, and candidly, we've been weekly, the three of us have been meeting, just talking. And I was like, why don't we just record one of these? Because we're just like kicking around things and learning the different perspectives and different angles from like the addict or or some might say the betrayer to the betrayed partner to we talk about codependency, but then also there's this kind of beautiful and sometimes messy triangle of the addict, the betrayed partner, and the clinician, the therapist, or the treatment center. And there really is it, it needs all those pieces to come together. I think Jamie would say, you know, in our story, we kind of had a kind of a perfect cocktail. When I say perfect, I don't mean like it it didn't have its flaws, but we had all the right people in the right places helping guide us. What do you say, babe? I mean, that was a big part of our of our journey.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Yeah, for sure. We we really did have an amazing team around us that, you know, at the time it wasn't super intentional. We were just following, I was following the recommendations of the therapists and um just reaching out to people and getting those supports in place for me and for our kids.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Yeah. And the therapists have to use loving leverage too. It's not just the it's not just the spouse or the family, whatever. But real quick, just for people who are meeting you for the first time, have been living under a rock, introduce yourself, Dr. MD, and just some of the work you've done, the place that you've been. We've got to work together for gosh, has it been six months? Yeah, and we we've got a such a fantastic working relationship, but also I'm just constantly amazed and impressed with the knowledge you have in this space. I mean, you've worked in some really incredible spaces, but the way you can read specifically process addiction, sex act, but like, and you've worked in some of the some of the craziest, most difficult environments that exist. So, in some ways, Valiant's a piece of cake compared to some of the places you've been. But could you give us just a just a brief overview of just who you are and and and kind of what you do?

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Yeah. So uh so I'm a clinical forensic psychologist. Um I loved psychology and the the forensic part of it, right? So like the legal and criminal aspect of it was really intriguing. Um, I wanted a job that I could go to that didn't feel like a job every day, right? Like that I wasn't waking up and being like, oh, I have to go to work today. It's more like, oh, I get to go do this today. Um and I kind of fell into addiction. So uh I started at a crisis center in San Diego, downtown San Diego uh Community Research Foundation. They have a bunch of crisis centers in San Diego. They do really great work um for people coming right off of like a 5150 hold or a suicide hold. Um, and then my internship was done at RJD, which is Donovan Men's Prison in San Diego. It's a maximum security men's prison. Um, and I was there for part of a practicum year, and then I did a full intern year as well. So two years I was there. Got to learn about boundaries and trauma and uh God, it was pretty much the foundation of who I am today. But I think that's where I started to see how important addiction treatment was. Um I'd grown up around addiction, and at some point in my earlier career, um, I worked at a casino and got to see gambling addiction pretty blatantly. Uh, you don't have to work very long to see that destroy somebody's life pretty quickly. Um so just having some of the background I had and then going into this clinical forensic program and then working in a prison, I think it just pushed me straight towards the population of addiction. So I spent the first couple years of my life doing substance abuse. So I worked for worked for American Addiction Centers uh for a while, dug my toe in there, did a couple nonprofits in Riverside Counter California, Whiteside Mammer. It's a great facility. They got to start Medicaid drug, Medicaid drug for California. Um they got to be the pilot for that, and it turned out really well. A lot of people got sober through that program. Um, and then I ended up at the meadows for Gentle Path. I had had really no experience with sex addiction, um, but I had a good foundation of just addiction in general. Um and I really do like working with some of the personality structures that men show up with typically. Um, I am um pretty forward in the way that I do therapy. So um narcissism, antisocial, those tend to land in that. They need more of that forward addressing. Um and I got trained by Dr. Carnes himself um pretty quickly, pretty rapidly, so that I could help support my team and my staff. And I was there for three and a half years. So got to see Patrick Carnes and what he does with sex addiction, got to see Stephanie Carnes and how she works with the betrayed spouse. And I think having that really direct training and that intense setting of a hospital setting and just um being, you know, they say if you're gonna learn a language, like go to the country that you want to learn the language because you're just in the culture. I think that's kind of how my training went at GPO is just in in the middle of the culture. So you you learn to see what's happening and adapt to that. Um and I really love this population, but not because of the personality structure that comes up, but because of the trauma that's behind the personality structure, right? Um in this population, the trauma is so severe and happened at such an early age. I want to say a good 99% of the people struggling in sex addiction or under that umbrella of sex addiction, um, have significant childhood trauma before the age of 10. Um, and that is something that is very unique. That's something that is that is um different than most addictions. Um and it's something that I found was really rewarding to work with because when you start to see the change, you it's it's magical because you you see these personality structures show up at the beginning and you're like, I don't know how much movement they can make. And when you start to really point out what the foundation of that is, the trauma work for that, um and you start to see that shift, you're like, that's why I do this job. That's why I'm here, that's what it is. I can save a family, I can show a spouse that, like, hey, yes, he had really bad behaviors, but that does not make him a bad person. But this is what was underlining that, this is what was driving that. This is how he's been so successful in every area of his life, except for his relationships, right? This is that distance you were feeling at times and calling out they were there. You're right. But it's not because he doesn't love you, or it's not because he's a bad person, it's because there were these traumas that were just driving this fear and this lack of healthy attachment. And so um once I got into that, man, I I guess that's like that's where my addictive traits come in, right? I was like, yes, there's like this thing that I love to do, and I just wanted to learn more. And I just kind of dug in and dove in. And um and I I still love working with substance and I view it a little bit differently now, right? I see it from a deeper level than I think has ever been trained for people who get the training for substance addiction. Um, when you look at process addiction, that carries such a deeper therapeutic intervention than what I think has ever been taught in school or these random conferences that I used to go to, or even just direct substance use addiction treatment training. Um, you'll find one facility will say it's all about the trauma, and one facility will say it's oh, it's all about 12-step, or one facility say it's all about the higher power. Um I don't think it's all about one thing. It's like you gotta combine all those things and you gotta work on all of them at the same time. Like that's I think where where I started to broaden that view was working on process disorders, but it it relates 100% to me when it comes to substance too.

Why Treatment Feels Shocking At First

SPEAKER_00 17:19

So yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, it's all intimacy disorder, it's all it's all connection. I mean, I I was I was surprised at how much I felt connected to other people with different, you know, different escapes. I was like, man, underneath it, there's we were we're what does Chip say, maybe we're 99.9% the same. I mean, all of us, we're just there's now there's a lot in that little nuance, you know, but still most of us are dealing with shame or fear or some trauma, or there's something else that connects us. And so, yeah, in a lot of ways, beneath the surface, there's a lot, a lot that connects us there. Well, so I'm gonna kind of go back and talk through just the the different stages from the different perspectives. And if if you're just tuning in on this, I would encourage you to go back and listen to the conversation um last week with with Jamie because she goes more in depth just on her perspective and her side, and we'll I want to touch on some of that again today just for kind of a refresher. But I want to go back to kind of when everything was at its worst, and we won't we won't need to talk details, but you know, I had the version of this version of reality in my head that just felt so true to me at the time. Um, but my brain was so sick, I was so unwell that it was basically feeding me just straight lies. Um, I I laughed because I just remember almost every instinct I had was wrong. Like all the things I thought I needed or wanted was wrong. You know, it's like uh we talked about provisional trust last week on the episode. Jamie, you had a completely different experience. And then Dr. MD, you would, from your perspective, would probably have seen something else entirely from a clinical perspective. So I wonder if we could just break that down. What was what was actually happening in each of those moments from those perspectives? And I'm talking about pre-treatment, pre-coming, like you, Dr. MD, you talk to people all the time who are entertaining. Do I even need treatment? Why should I come? Why should I be there? I know for me, and I'll say this last thing, and I'll shut up, let you guys talk, but I know that when I was introduced to this idea of rehab, it was shocking. I had no idea that that was even part of what the solution could be for me. Like I had no context for that. So um, yeah, I would love to hear from both of you, maybe Dr. MD first, and then Jamie, just a refresher on like what was going on in your world when we were kind of at its worst and we're thinking about how do we get out of this mess?

SPEAKER_02 19:57

Well, Drew, I think you're not outside the norm, right? Um when we get a call from therapists, sometimes even just to go over a case like, hey, I've been working with this guy for six months. He's still relapsing, or I still have this feeling that something's not landing. Um, and we're like, let's look at treatment. Like he needs to come in. They're like, really, does he need that level of care? Like, I I mean, I'm not worried for his safety, or I'm not worried for uh for he's not gonna die. It's not substance, right? So like he may be acting out in certain ways, but it's it's not gonna kill anyone. And I'm like, not necessarily, right? Um the the the fear of death is not that the addiction will take out the addict, it's that the shame will, right? So the shame is that driver of saying I'm a horrible person or I wouldn't be doing these things. I'm a horrible person, or I would be able to stop. I am going to go see a therapist. I have been seeing a therapist. Why is this not working? It's because I'm wrong, is there's something wrong with me. Um, and that's, I mean, that's the the precursor for suicide. So it's like that it is life or death in a way that is just true to to substance or even sometimes more true. Um, because I don't think that the sex addict or anybody in process disorder understands um that tolerance piece, that buildup piece, the why are my why are my behaviors getting worse? I'm I'm trying to solve this problem and I'm doing things I've never done before. And that's frightening. So that just like increases that shame a little bit more. And then society is not the best at identifying addiction as addiction and will sometimes look at it as a moral failing or um or you're you're or they will shame you themselves. Right. So it's like now I can't tell anyone because I don't want my friends to know what I'm doing. Cause they won't they'll think I'm a bad person too. So now it's this hidden secret that I'm holding on all by all about myself. And then when it becomes exposed, now I am worthless. I don't know what to do. And that is a huge risk for suicide. So I think, you know, when we're looking at it from the clinical view, at least from the seat that I sit in and in the inpatient work that I've done and the patients that I've engaged with and the families I've seen, we see that level of urgency the same way that somebody who's using fentanyl who overdosed last week would be given a sense of urgency, right? Um but for you guys, it's like, whoa, 90 days, that's that's a long time.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

You could have said you you could have said 90 years. That's to me, that felt like an eternity, like I could not imagine my life at going away for 90 days. I mean, I know that sounds silly, and as a blip on the radar looking back, I'm like, gosh, only 90 days? That's not enough. You know, but at the time when they're like, you need to go away for 90 days, I I mean, my life was over. I just thought that there's just no way I'll survive that.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

Well, and Jamie, I've heard you say it too, where you're like, that was a shock for me. I didn't know that this was the direction that we needed to go in. Like you knew there was a direction to go in. You couldn't keep living like this, but that wasn't anything that anyone had really ever warned you about. And he'd been seeing a therapist. So, what was that like for you when they're like, oh, by the way, we need to start off with 30? Because I know they kind of tricked you a little bit, right, Drew? It's like, hey, we need to start off with 30. Let's see what that looks like. Let's see how much progress you can make. Um, right. And then they were like, yeah, 90. Uh so Jamie, what'd that feel like for you?

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Yeah, um, it was shocking. I mean, I knew they were his therapist and people that he worked with were a part of the intervention. And it was shocking to hear that. Um, because I just I think I just had the stereotype in my mind of that rehab is for, you know, someone that's on drugs under a bridge and isn't functioning anymore. Um, but you know, as I started to educate myself, it it did make sense, you know, that it had escalated to a point where he needed to be in treatment. Um he definitely during that time was spiraling just out of control. His behavior was very erratic. Um, it was the pendulum would swing so far um where there would be times where I would see him and he was just like dead in the eyes, like, or he wouldn't look me in the eyes. Um my oldest daughter described him as a ghost. Like he would just come home and it was like a shell of a person showing up. Um, and the pendulum would just swing so far where he'd be trying to get back in relationship with us and making promises and um just wanting wanting to, I guess, just try to I guess reconnect to our family. Um and and just try to start over again. Like he was just it was like he would that's the only way I can describe it, is he was spiraling out of control and grasping, it seemed like, at anything that he could hold on to.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Yeah. Well said. And I knew it. Like I I we talked about this last week. I called you the day of my intervention and said, I wish my friends would do an intervention for me. Like I knew I needed someone to come, like I couldn't get out, I was couldn't get out on my own. I, you know, and so I'm I'm curious too, um Jamie, from your perspective, what did you need from a from a clinician or a therapist standpoint when you're in that place? Because I think that we talked about this this triangle, you know, but what was helpful for you, or what did you need in that moment from like a Dr. MD?

SPEAKER_01 26:31

I think the the key was just me having an education around it. Um, there was a specific book that I read um called Hope in the Age of Addiction that actually explained the pattern of addiction and the cycle, how it cycles and escalates over time and why, because I think that in my shock, I was I just wanted to know why. Like I couldn't, it didn't make any sense to me until I had that education. Um, and then I do think because at that time I was seeing uh my regular doctor, um, and she I don't think she knew how to support me um when I was in like the thick of trauma, of betrayal trauma. Um and she just was kind of grasping at straws, trying to, you know, maybe you need to be on an antidepressant or you know, and nothing, none of it worked because it was just like an acute phase, I guess. I felt like the therapist that I had at the time did have an awareness around addiction. And, you know, as soon as you got um registered at Valiant, um, your therapist called me and said, You need to go and find a CSAT in your area immediately, you know, and so that kind of put me on a journey of finding a CSAT in the area, and thankfully I did. And he is an amazing, yeah, gifted therapist, just so grateful um for him. Um, but yeah, I think it was just um I always say like everything just kind of fell in place. And I I felt like as far as like the support that that I had here. Um and it wasn't I didn't really know what to do. It wasn't like I had a guidebook or anything like that. It just I was just taking the next step and following the guidance of the clinicians, therapists around us at the time.

Betrayal Trauma And Losing Reality

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Yeah. Well, a couple things that came up, and I'd pitch it back to you, Dr. MV, but I I and I'll just speak for me. I'm not like saying this across the board, but a couple things about getting to treatment, and the reason why looking back when I need it was I was going to therapy. I even did an intensive for a week. The problem is I was I was way, I was I was worse than what I knew. I was sicker than what I realized. My brain was sicker than what I so I still think, oh, I can manage this, I can control this. And I will say for me, an hour of therapy a week was nowhere near the kind of aggressive treatment. It would be like, you know, I hate to use this example, there's probably a better one, but like it'd be like a terminal disease, and you're popping ibuprofen or something. You're just like, well, that's not gonna do it. And even the intensive, and I know for some people that works, but I I broke out of the intensive, I left early, I didn't finish it. It was just like not even near the depth. And so part of it, I think, with rehab and and treatment, and there's a lot of different paths people can take, but I will say separation from your addiction is one of the biggest parts of why we go to rehab or therapy. It's not just the therapy that happens, it is being in a safe environment to have withdrawal, to have anxiety. Like I've heard you guys say a lot of the work that happens is not in the therapy rooms, it's it's when you're battling through the night or in the afternoon, or like when you're having all these feelings, but you're in a safe place and you don't have access to the things that you're using to act out. That is a big part of the treatment. So I just wanted to jump in and add that to like, and I'm in weekly therapy. I mean, I was there this morning. I go to therapy now, well, I wouldn't say weekly, but I I'm still in therapy in 12 steps and all this stuff. I'm a big believer in that, but I just want people to hear, especially, and I know the the clinicians know this, but for the people that are watching that are that are families or addicts themselves, the gift of going away for a period of time is is huge. And you are probably more sick than what you realize. There's also more hope than what you realize, too, but um that's a big part of it. I want to move on to kind of that breaking point, because I clinically, you know, I'm curious from you, Dr. M, what's happening inside inside a relationship when one person is minimizing or hiding, and the other starts to feel like they're losing their grip on reality and they're going crazy. And this is this is kind of it starts to spiral, but there's the gaslighting on one side, or it's not that big a deal, or I'm not, I'm I'm okay. Jamie, or the other person feeling, hey, uh this doesn't feel okay. You're not looking me in the eyes, you're not connecting, you're a ghost. No, I promise I'm fine. Clinically, what's happening there?

SPEAKER_02 31:49

Well, this is why betrayal trauma is so different than uh other families when it comes to like substance, right? Like, so when we're treating families of substance abuse or addiction, um it is so so very different. Like they knew their loved one was drinking, they knew this, they could they could see it, they could feel it, they could, right? It was intangible, it's something that they had evidence on. When it's a process disorder, um there's a couple things that come up, right? And so there is that question, is this a moral failing? Like, is this person, and I've heard it time and time again from today's, did I marry a sociopath? Did I marry a psychopath? Is he so narcissistic that uh his needs are the only thing that mattered? Is this an addiction? Is this just abuse, right? Um so I think there's a lot of things that happen in that dynamic. Um, one, I think the addict is trying to protect not being fully seen. Um, because if I am fully seen uh and they know who I really am, and they'll leave me. And now I'm I'm risking abandonment. And there's there's that attachment fear that's there. Um, I think there is on the spouse's side a literal change in reality, right? So it's like this is not something that was known. This is not something that was agreed upon. This is not something that is codependent in any way. They're not enabling these behaviors. This is something that one day my life is this, and the next day it is totally flipped. And what I thought was my life is no longer my life. So the amount of trauma that comes up in that, in that mistrust of somebody who I love, who I thought loved me back, who was supposed to be my partner, who's supposed to keep me safe. Um that is a huge dynamic. That's a that's a huge thing that needs to be addressed, which is why when we're looking at process disorders, we're looking at sex addiction, we're looking at attachment disorders, uh, it has to be part of the recovery. The recovery has to look at the family system as a whole because the addiction has affected in such a very traumatizing way the whole family system. Um, so we've got to work with you on recognizing as the addict that what you've been doing was abusive to your wife. It wasn't just you acting out and and making a mistake, right? You didn't just get caught.

SPEAKER_03 34:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02 34:28

There were systematic things that your addiction put into play that was abusive to the person that you loved the most.

SPEAKER_03 34:36

That's right.

Loving Leverage And Nonnegotiable Boundaries

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Um and then we've got to work with with your spouse, with Jamie, we've got to work on how to get a sense of reality again, right? Because then it's hard to trust yourself. It's like, oh, there were moments where I thought maybe this wasn't okay, but I believed him anyway. So is that me? Did I fail? Did I do something that pushed him in that direction? Did I how do I prevent that again? Like, how do I keep myself safe if I couldn't keep myself safe the first time? How am I going to now? How can I ever trust him again? Am I a fool if I trust him again? Because now we have to look at even outside factors. You know, a lot of women also then have friends and family on the outside saying, once a cheater, always a cheater, right? Uh, this can't be repaired. How could you ever trust him again? You just need to pack up yourself and leave. Like, right? You deserve. And granted, some of those things, like you deserve better, are true. As in the behavior, you deserve better treatment, you deserve better for your marriage, right? But I think what's missed is the human aspect of this. Like Jamie saw something in you when she married you. That is like 100% who you are, and that's why she loves you. And so it's getting Jamie to understand and see and validate that your reality was skewed, and he skewed your reality, and that is abusive, right? This is and this is where I probably the education came in and helped, right, Jamie. It's like, and this these are the things, this is the education behind why he would do that and how that doesn't make him a sociopath or a psychopath or a complete narcissist. Um and this is how we can build repair, right? This is how you set boundaries, this is how you can provide yourself safety in this process of making a decision because then there's decisions that need to be made. Do I stand by him? Do I watch to see what treatment looks like? So much comes up for this vouse. And we think a lot of the times, oh my gosh, it's a poor client. The addict is going through so much. He's got to make a decision to go to treatment, or he's got to make a decision. No, there's so much happening on the other side that I think gets ignored. Like now you're running the household. Now you don't have your partner that helped with your kids. You're trying to manage the family dynamics, you're hearing outside voices from people. You also have to get some form of healing and help. That's a lot of stuff to take on. While it feels like the ambulance has picked up your husband while you're laying in the street bleeding and carts him off to treatment, and we get him all these services and all this help, and he starts making all this progress. Like there's these all of these weird dynamics that kind of fall into place. So it really is people have to look at the bigger picture. We have to look at the whole family dynamic because everybody in the family was affected by this behavior. Um, yeah, and so it's it's a balancing game, it's a juggling act. We got to work on the denial from the addict, and then we've got to work on building some new reality for the spouse and getting her to trust herself again and getting her to have a voice and getting her to acknowledge what damage has been done to her. So she'll also seek some healing and some some safety and some help.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Yeah. Did anything come up for you, Jamie, during that? Because I see you nodding for people that are listening. You're you're basically saying, preach it, amen. Yes, that's exactly, you know. But I just want before I moved on, I want to make sure, is there any anything that you would you could relate to in that?

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Yeah, I mean, I definitely felt all of those things. Um, you know, that he was he was in treatment, like receiving, you know, just all of this round the clock care and feeling like, well, I need that kind of care, and so do our kids. Like we're all struggling too. Um, but you know, I obviously we can't all go go into rehab. Um, but yeah, I think everything that you, Dr. MD, are sharing, I can relate to all of it. It's all very true. It was all very real.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

Well, and one thing that came up while you were talking is I hadn't really thought through the decision making, the weight of the decision making. Because at least because we talk about loving leverage, I don't really feel like I had a decision. Like I had one decision to make it yes or no. Like, are you going or are you not going? Like, and that was on me. But because Jamie held strong and she used that loving leverage, it was a big it was an easy decision for me. Because it was like, okay, here's one path. You don't go to rehab, and I'm not interested in moving forward with you. You don't have a job, you know, like I'm just like, I'm literally starting over fresh on my own, and still broken, and it's still an addiction and everything else. Or I've got this other path, which is you go to 90 days and we'll see. And so for me, it was like, well, that's an easy. I mean, I don't have a decision. It didn't feel like a decision for me. So I'm not carrying the pressure and the weight of that. Whereas a lot of times, the family system, whoever is doing that, they're actually deciding sometimes what facility are they gonna go to. You know, I didn't know, I didn't know I was going to Valiant. I don't, I don't remember going to a website. I know I had some intake calls that I barely, but I just remember they booked a flight and said, get on a plane to Denver. And I showed up, and there comes Peyton walking up in a van and telling me to get in the van. Like I knew nothing about what I was doing, so I didn't have the weight of any decision. Honestly, once the intervention happened, I was just like a toddler going, getting in whatever car the people I trusted told me to get into. So I'm just saying I'm identifying or maybe empathizing. There is a lot of weighty decisions that families have to make on behalf of their loved one that is it's a lot.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

Right, right. And a lot of times I'll hear therapists or I'll hear um spouses say, well, it's not my decision. Um, they're a grown adult, they should make this decision on their own. And sometimes I have to relay, like, but their brain isn't. They're they're um, it would be like dealing with an intoxicated person. And I've heard Michael say this before, and it's actually kind of brilliant. If you walk up on somebody who has a stab wound or is bleeding on the street from their arm, they don't first tell you, hey, put a tourniquet on me, put a tourniquet on me. They're like, help me, help me save my life, right? And so what people normally do will try to stop the bleeding, right? And so you guys had really great people behind you, but essentially that's what they did for you guys. That's what they did for Jamie. Jamie, these are the things I want you to do. These are the boundaries that you need to set. And this is how you have to stay firm in them. You are saving his life and you are healing your family when you do this. And so that provisional trust that you guys talk about, that's what that was. Where Jamie's like, okay, Jamie, I remember you talking about like he was trying to get you to come over to the house that he was staying at before he left, and you're in the car driving, and your intervention is like, no, turn around, go home. Do not go to him, and you're like, okay, turning around, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:13

Like and I was so pissed. Oh my gosh, I was so angry.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

Right. Yeah, I don't want to turn around. I want to go hear what my husband has to say. I love him. I want to make sure that that he's okay. And the interventionist is like, we've got him. Don't worry about him. He's fine. This is not gonna make it better, right? And you're like, okay, I gotta trust you at this, right? And then after 30 days, when clinical's like, Jamie, he needs more time. You need to, you need to hold firm to your boundary. He needs 90 days. You're like, okay, I am trusting the treatment team that I've put in place to help us navigate this. And then he got to get mad at Dr. Martin. You know what I mean? Where he's like, You lied to me, you said 30 days, and now you guys are telling me 90, and the goalpost is moving, and what's happening right now? And she was like, Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

And I knew I knew it was gonna be 90, and I knew that they didn't tell him that. They were just trying to get him there. Yeah. So I knew that all along.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

Well, and if I was a part of the to your point, if I was a part of the decision or there was any negotiation to be had, there is no chance in hell I'd choose to go to rehab. Like, there is no part of me that would have been able to, like, if it was a conversation, hey, what do you think about this? I was not gonna go. I only went because Jamie and a few others held very firm boundaries, and it was I want families to hear that. Like, I want families to hear that I don't know that not only do I not know that my family would be together, or but I don't even know that I would be on the planet if the people that love me the most didn't say, we're not asking for your permission, we're not negotiating with you, like you know. And for so long, the addict has gaslit and manipulated, and they're a lot of times they're big, strong personalities like mine, and all those different things. And it was the first time I was confronted, and there was no negotiation. So I just like the dis inviting an addict's brain into deciding something like this, it's insanity. There's no way an addict makes the right call, you know. Um, and I think even in your talk, they don't want healing, right? Oh no, I want it out of the mess.

SPEAKER_02 44:32

But your addictive brain didn't know what you needed for healing, and it's still fighting that healing process, right? It's like, no, we don't need to heal in that way. You're saying I want to heal, I want to heal, and your addiction's like, but not like that.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Well, I'm a control freak, so I want to I want to heal, I want to manage my recovery, I want to manage my healing, I want to manage when I go, what I have permission, I want to manage how much I use my cell phone. You know, I want it all to be on my terms. And, you know, I've shared this before, but one of the biggest fits I've ever pitched was when they didn't give me my cell phone back when they told me they would. And you would have thought, I mean, I I all but got on my back and just kicked my legs in there and pitched a fit like a baby. I mean, it was bad. And it was just a control thing. It was just like I just it it was, you know, and so it's like until we as addicts are either willing to fully surrender, which again, you can correct me on this. I just don't know how often that happens without the people closest to us drawing, that's why we talk loving leverage, without drawing very strict, non-negotiable boundaries that force us to do the things that we would never do for ourselves otherwise. I mean, I just think that and that brings you to the next question. What are some of the conversations you have when it comes to getting into treatment? What are the conversations you're having often with families? Like, what are some of the themes? What do you hear? Like, what are some hurdles or like when a family or client's trying to decide, is it time? Do I really need this? I mean, I'm sure you're hearing the same type stories constantly.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

100%. 100%. So the I can't leave my job.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

I can't leave my like I can't give up. You're hearing all this stuff.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

I can't be away from my kids for 90 days. Uh my wife, that would put so much strain on my wife. And it's interesting because sometimes you're like, um you haven't been fully present. You don't think that's put strain on your wife. You haven't been fully present. You think your kids don't feel that? You don't think they're they're struggling as well through dad not?

SPEAKER_00 46:46

Your kids don't want to see you anyway, probably. I mean, a lot of my case, my kids didn't want to have anything to do. I'm thinking, I can't leave my kids, and Jamie's other like, they don't want to be around you. What are you talking about? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:58

Yeah. And that's even harder to hear, right? So it's like to hear that your kids don't want to talk to you, don't want to engage you, are also pissed off, right? Of of your behaviors of what you've done. It's a hard thing to hear. But I I do hear a lot of the times family trying to negotiate with the addict. And the addict mind in negotiations is brilliant. Um they are first we have to remember that control issue, right, Drew. That control issue is not based out of um being predatory or wanting to be harmful. That control issue is based out of childhood trauma, that at some point you learned that the only way to keep myself safe is to have control over all the things in my life, right? Um it's not the way that kept you safe because when we, you know, when we're developing these thought processes, we don't have a full frontal lobe, right? We're not cognitively developed yet. And so we make all these decisions and these uh life theories moving forward that aren't necessarily accurate. Um, so that control issue is not just you being controlling, that control issue is driving out of a trauma that says if I allow people to help me, if I allow people to make these decisions, I might die. I may not survive this. Right. Um, but I've kept myself alive. It may not have been fun the whole time and and I'm struggling, but I've kept myself alive. Um and people think I'm doing really well. So I could hide behind that mask of of decent functioning, right? And this just being a mistake and this doesn't go any deeper than that. Um, but I think when families start negotiating with the addict, that's when we start losing the battle a little bit because they are really great at negotiation. And Jamie, it's the only way that you were in the car driving back over there, right? Because you already were pissed off at him. You had, he had, he had done something that was a bottom line for you. And so you're not even a hundred percent his cheerleader at this point. You're still trying to navigate all kinds of stuff, and he's convincing you this is what you need to do. Um, and and it's unconscious. I don't think the addict is fully thinking. If I get my wife in front of me, I can convince her of this. It's just what has been part of the dynamics for so long. It's just knowing how you can manage the people around you and how you can keep control. So when that gets eliminated and you have no choice, I mean you do, right? It's it's a crappy choice and the crappier choice, right? The crappy choice is to go to treatment and be uncomfortable. The crappier choice is I'm gonna lose my family. So essentially it would put you in a corner where you're like, I have to make this decision. I don't feel like I have one, but this is the direction I gotta go in.

SPEAKER_03 50:01

Right.

SPEAKER_02 50:02

When we do that, we stop the addiction and the addictive thought process from controlling your life. And we start to get to see pieces of Drew again. We start to see the things that are real for Drew, we start to see the fears. And that's why you go into a childlike state about your phone, right? Because you're uncomfortable, because we're starting to see you for who you are, and that's scary, and that's happened before you've been hurt. And so we have to start doing some corrective experiences so that you can start to feel safe. But the first thing we've got to do is get your wife to have that provisional trust so that we can make sure she's not negotiating with the terrorist, which is the addictive process.

unknown 50:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Exactly. It's so spot on. And I think part of what having a team and in the clinician, this goes back to the why this triangle is so important, is you got to draw strength sometimes off the the clinical team and the treatment. Like, you know, I think Jamie, you know, and you can speak to this, but if you didn't have people telling you, you're gonna be okay, hold the line, this is what you have to do. Like, you are drawing strength from other people, you know.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

Absolutely. I don't know what what I would have, I mean, it would have been a disaster if I had just been left to my own devices at that point. I mean, just having just drawing on the strength of the people that were around us, and you know, just reassuring me like, hey, I have him, he's not your problem anymore, you've done enough. Um, hold the line, like, you know, obviously this is gonna be really tough and not not feel normal. Um, but just just trust the process, you know. Um I think that was definitely key for me. And I obviously at the time, I I I can only look back and say that, you know, at the time it was just blind trust. Yeah. I mean, I don't even know if I would call it trust. It was just like I don't know what to do. Just tell me what to do. Yeah.

Work Identity And The Legacy Question

SPEAKER_00 52:23

Well, and to your credit, you listened to the T. I mean, will you talk about someone who was vigilant? Because I was I'm I'm pretty good. I I would say maybe even elite when it comes to manipulation and getting what I want. And I could not get her to budge on early on, I could not get her to budge on anything. I mean, it was like if the if the therapist said it, this is what we're doing. I'm not open for discussion on it. I'm not open up because, you know, and that was part of her learning how to use her voice and draw boundaries, and I'm not gonna let you use me, and I can't trust that you're, you know, it took time for us to to build that back. I just want to before we jump into this next, like kind of part two of this, because we've talked about like pre-treatment, early treatment, and all this stuff, and I want to get into like the early days of treatment, but also shifting the focus, and maybe that's part two of this conversation. But I need to go on a quick rant, and then I need you, Dr. MD, to reel me back in if I'm wrong. One thing that drives me insane currently, and I know why it makes me mad, is because it's actually underneath the anger is the shame of how much identity I took in my work. What drives me insane now when I talk to people who are thinking about whether or not they need treatment is how much they will sacrifice their lives on the altar of their job. When I want to shake them and be like, who cares about your freaking job? Like, I I I know you're a CEO of this or you're that or you're a surgeon or whatever. Like, okay, I'm not saying that's unimportant and that you don't do important work, but you're losing your entire life. You're losing your family, you're losing everything. And one of the big reasons why you won't go get help is you're afraid of losing your job, which by the way, there's a lot of programs in place where most of the time you don't have to lose your job. And we're actually really good at that at Valiant. Like you and Michael, we know all the players and all the spaces, how it's you know, it's illegal for them to fire you. You we know how to help you get the help you need, but it's still the one thing where it's like, I can't leave my job for that long. That drives me insane. And it's and I'm like, you you're getting ready to lose your entire life because you don't want to leave this. And I know the reason why I'm angry is because that's me, that was me. I couldn't leave my I couldn't leave my career. It was it was I worshiped that. That was my idol more than anything. How do you deal with that? How do you deal with people coming in that are losing everything and are saying, I can't, I can't be gone from my job for 30 days or 60 days or 90 days. It's insanity.

SPEAKER_02 55:01

It is, it is, because we can see we've got um, we've got a a bird's eye view of your guys' lives when they when you call in, right? Or we're when we're consulting, when we're working with you. And we can see, right? Like you can salvage your job. That's that's not that's the least thing you should be worried about, right? Like you can go on FMLA for a month, we can do some virtual stuff if that's what right. Like we can see that. Um I think this goes back down to that attachment thing, right? So people have failed me. If I lose this, what am I now? A lot of people have worked really, really hard to get as far as they've gotten in their career because that's been their strength. Their strength has been to read people really well because their trauma has taught them if I don't read people well, I'm at harm. If I don't read people well, I can be hurt. If I don't read people well, I'm setting myself up for more pain, more trauma. And so we learn to read people really well, and that makes uh what I call resourcefulness or what may be manipulation very, very easy and comes naturally, right? And so we then start, it's like a chess game. If I can make this person move here and I can make this person move here, then I can move here, I'm safe. And then if somebody moves on the board, it's like, okay, what are the next moves I need to make in order for for me to stay safe? So essentially that's what you're navigating because everything else is falling apart, right? My wife is aware of what happened, my kids are aware of what happened. But I mean, for you, I think even your work was aware of what happened. So it's probably outside of Jamie holding that boundary. That was the other thing that was really important for you is that this is not an option. You can't just go to work.

SPEAKER_00 56:53

That can't be go hide behind the perform my work performance, which a lot of addicts do when everything else is falling apart. We go to the one place and Jamie blew that up for me too. She was like, Yep, you're not doing that. Sorry, they're gonna know. And and of course, I was a pastor, and so you know, there's a there's a lot of professions where they don't care as much. They're like, as long as you're showing up and performing well, you know, turns out being an active addiction while being a pastor is it goes against the uh core criteria. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

unknown 57:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:26

So I mean, I the sad part is, right, Drew, and I think this is also where maybe this this fear, this anger comes out when you're when you're hearing people talk about that is eventually they're gonna lose their jobs anyways. If they don't go get help, everything else is gonna eventually fall apart. You can only hold this image together for so long because really what it's doing is it's just like tearing people apart from the inside out. And that will start to show up in work, that will start to show up in relationships at work, that will start to show up in all aspects of life. So you can and and you'll see this too in process disorder. It's like, well, this is my third marriage. Uh, the first marriage broke up because of this, the second marriage broke up because of this, and now this is continuing. I just don't understand it. It's like, well, replacing the people in your life is not actually what's going to help you, right? It's like there's obviously there's an issue that this keeps coming up for. Um, and are you ready? It's the white flag waving yet to a point of where you're saying, okay, I've tried all these other things, they don't work. And I think sometimes addicts just need to know why I need to know I can try it this way because I'm special. I'm I'm really smart or I can learn things really quickly, or I may not need to go to this. I can build the relationship with my families while doing outpatient or whatever the addict brain is telling you in the moment and negotiating with yourself, right? Because that negotiation starts with you first. Um, the work thing has always been an issue. So this is what I just tell people when they call in about the work. One, uh, we have yet to have a patient come into treatment that has lost their job because they came to treatment. But we have had many people who have rejected treatment and then have called us back later after they've lost their job because they didn't go to treatment, right?

SPEAKER_00 59:19

So true.

SPEAKER_02 59:20

That happens more often than not.

SPEAKER_00 59:22

And I would say majority of the time, well, I actually let me ask you I would imagine majority of the time when they finally do lose their job because of addiction, the chances of it hurting more people and traumatizing more people that way than if they would have just gotten help, because now you're getting you're getting caught, there's a discovery, you're putting other people at jeopardy, other people at harm. And so now instead of you saying, hey, I'm willing to go get help, and people being able to support you in it, you've now traumatized people and you've been caught, and the the ripples of destruction are they tend to be more far-reaching. Is that fair?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:02

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I say the longer the time is between discovery um and treatment, the more broken trust and broken relationships you're gonna have, right? And that that doesn't necessarily even mean like some some of these guys who call them and have been married three times. That doesn't mean the discovery with this most recent wife. That means when it was discovered with the first wife, right? And now you've waited two and a half decades. There's a lot of broken relationship, there's a lot of mistrust. And your current wife is gonna remember what you said about the previous two wives and why the relationship was broken up, and she's gonna start putting things together and she's gonna be like, wait a minute, this problem started a long time ago, right? This had nothing to do with me. And there's a whole different level of betrayal, even in that, right? So it's like I always just say the closer we can get treatment and healing to the discovery, the better we can repair relationships that have been violated in your life or that have been broken in your life. Um and then the second thing I bring up outside of just the job part is I try to focus on legacy. Is your job really the legacy that you want to carry? Right? When you die and people are at your funeral, do you want your coworkers there talking about how hard you worked and how many hours you put in each week, or how much money you made the company? Because really that's what a job is for the most part. It is something that can be replaced. But can you be replaced in your family? What will your children say at that same funeral and will they be there? Because to me, that's the legacy that you need to be paying attention to in this moment, not your job.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

I think that's so powerful because the the legacy is what you're leaving in them, and you don't want that to be something they want to get rid of or get away from or forget.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:10

So I just think that's so so powerful about what is actually important.