The Loving Leverage Podcast
Welcome to The Loving Leverage Podcast, presented by Valiant Living, where we help you love someone through addiction without losing yourself in the process.
If someone you love is struggling with addiction, you know how heavy that weight can be. You want to help, but nothing seems to work. This podcast is for you. Host Drew Powell (Recovery Advocate and Valiant Living alumnus) sits down with betrayal trauma experts, CSATs, therapists, betrayed partners, and alumni living in recovery, along with Valiant Living Founder and CEO Michael Dinneen, LCSW, CSAT-S, creator of the Loving Leverage™ framework.
Valiant Living has been restoring lives and families since 2017. Fully accredited by The Joint Commission, Valiant offers residential care, PHP, IOP, and detox services for men and their families, and has earned a national reputation as a premier treatment program for men ages 26 and older.
If you or someone you love is ready for help, call us at 720-669-1285 or visit valiantliving.com. We'd love to have a conversation with you.
The Loving Leverage Podcast
The Secret So Many Men Carry: Pornography, Shame, and the Fight for Real Intimacy (with Tyler Flowers)
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
We share an unflinching look at pornography addiction as a counterfeit path to presence and how surrender, regulation, and community create real change. Tyler opens his story, breaks down brain science, and shows couples how to rebuild safety without linear timelines.
• the link between fear, dysregulation and porn use
• why willpower fails under fight or flight
• addiction as unmet needs seeking relief
• regulation skills for grounding and presence
• early exposure, secrecy and escalation risks
• marriage myths about sex solving compulsion
• how shame and betrayal create a painful loop
• safe, guided disclosure versus partial leaks
• accountability and surrender that build trust
• community groups that make honesty possible
Download our free guide: The Hidden Battle — A Practical Guide To Understanding Pornography Addiction And The Path To Healing at ValiantLiving.com/episode57
If you or someone you love is struggling with addiction, you don’t have to face it alone.
Valiant Living helps men and their families move from crisis to stability through clinically driven care, community, and hope.
Learn more about our programs at www.valiantliving.com
or call us confidentially at (720) 796-6885 to speak with someone who can help.
Welcome, Guests, And Free Guide
SPEAKER_02Well, hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Valiant Living Podcast. I'm your host and grateful alumni, Drew Powell, and today I have my good buddy Tyler Flowers is on the episode. I love this guy. Tyler and I have been friends for man, I guess a better part of a decade now. And um, he makes me laugh, cracks me up, but he's also um really a great thought leader when it comes to mental health and addiction. He's done a lot of his own work on this. I'm grateful for his willingness to open up about his own struggles and his own uh journey with addiction. And so today we're gonna be talking all about pornography, pornography addiction. And we also put out a resource to go along with this episode. It's a free download, it's called The Hidden Battle, a practical guide to understanding pornography addiction and the path to healing. This is really for the man who feels stuck and also for the partner who feels betrayed. So if you go to dietliving.com slash episode 57, you can download that for free. It's great whether you're uh a clinician or whether you're a betrayed spouse or whether you're struggling with pornography addiction, I think this will be a helpful resource. Alright, so that's enough for me. Let's jump in with Tyler Flowers.
SPEAKER_04Let's do that.
SPEAKER_02You want to check in?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Are we rolling?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we're rolling, man.
SPEAKER_04So let me finish my mint. I'm gonna distract everybody.
SPEAKER_02Don't do the mint in the in the mic. Leave that. I'll check in first.
SPEAKER_04That'll be cool. That'll be like an ASR or ASM or whatever they call that.
SPEAKER_02But you're not cool enough to know what's going on in the pop culture. All right, I'll check in first while you finish your mint. How about that?
Feelings Check-In And Humor Breaks
SPEAKER_04I'm done.
SPEAKER_02I feel tons of we're using the the eight feelings by chip, right? Is that what we're doing? We can, yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_04Um I don't know how you check in, so I'm I'm learning I'm in learning mode right now.
SPEAKER_02I use those, I use those. Um I've got an incredible amount of gladness just to be with you right now. We've been friends for a while, and we've both have evolved, our lives have evolved since our friendship began. So the fact that like we're sitting here together about to have this conversation and we're still buds, and like that makes me very, very glad. Um I think knowing that there's usually a isn't there feeling usually always accompanying gladness? Is that one of the ones that has a feeling with it? I can't remember. Maybe um I have some fear come up. Um and then I still I still have some shame that comes up when I'm with you just because you and your family were part of the church I was a part of, and we've been de we've already I mean we've had those conversations and made amends and all that stuff, but I still feel that, you know, there's and there's some sadness there for what was lost. Um those are coming up for me. I think that's it.
SPEAKER_04Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Was that good? That was good. Could I pass?
SPEAKER_04Man, I don't know if I'm that uh deep, you know.
SPEAKER_02You don't you can't access the feelings that quick.
SPEAKER_04No. I feel I you know, the main access, or excuse me. Look at that. They here's the fear coming up right here. I can't even talk, man.
SPEAKER_02You look like your face is glued to the microphone.
SPEAKER_04It is, I don't know what to do with my mouth. Um I th I feel like the main feeling that I experience in my life is fear. Really? And we'll get into that later, how that drove my porn use. Uh-huh. But I feel a lot of fear right now. Um, I don't like being on camera. Hello. Uh I don't like when I have to sound smart and I feel like I have to sound smart today.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, or articulate, because you know my uh penchant for saying inappropriate and offensive things. I'll do anything to make someone laugh. Dude, I really and I'm just worried what might come out of my mouth today. Yeah. Um, so yeah, feeling fear. I'm feeling a lot of gladness now that you shared that. And uh one one of the things I said to you uh maybe a couple months ago was like, I love spending time with you because like I really can show up authentically, I don't have to perform in any way. And and there are so few people in my life that I feel that way about, and I feel that way about you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_04Um, so I'm excited to get to talk to you, and I'm I'm an admirer of your uh gifts. We were just talking about giftedness earlier, and like you were so good at this, and such a you'll help me when I start to like you know realize that I'm up in the air and start falling, you'll catch me in your big arms. And I'm grateful for that.
SPEAKER_02I'm glad you said thanks for sharing that. I I'm glad that you said that because last time we hung out, and I think it's happened every time we've hung out recently. I've gone home and told Jamie the same thing. I was like, Tyler is a guy that I can show up fully. And in recovery, that means a lot to me these days. Where I don't feel like I have to perform around you, I don't have to be perfect, you know all my you know, scars and all my stuff, and you still have chosen to be in relationship with me, and so it just like takes all the pressure off. So yeah. If you weren't so handsome, well, there's that probably wouldn't have been if I was ugly, that wouldn't you wouldn't be my friend.
SPEAKER_04Hey, I do don't feel handsome.
SPEAKER_02Someone called me jelly roll again last week. We're at a conference. Well, that's the only that was this it was this like second or third time in my life that someone came up to me and said, Does has anybody told you you you look like jelly roll? And I was like, I don't know what to do with that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So say send the checks here.
SPEAKER_02Thanks. Yeah. What were you about to say? Do you remember?
SPEAKER_04I was gonna say that there were two goals that I had going into this podcast. One was lose 20 pounds before we got here. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And how did that work out for you for those that are listening, not watching? You look great, but I think you had a great weight.
SPEAKER_04I think I've gained three pounds.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, probably sometimes you got too skinny there for a minute.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. One of my friends, um, I don't know if this is one of those offensive things I'm gonna say, but one of my friends called that my Dallas Buyers era.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. Um, you had another one?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, the other one was to have a beard as nice as yours. I think I'm oh for two.
SPEAKER_02I did notice you're getting the gray coming in your beard on the walk-in. That's that's a new season of life for us. I got a lot of lot of gray. I started uh plucking them out, but it's there's just more there than I can I can get around to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02All right, let's dive in. So let's do it. Tyler Flowers.
Tyler’s Background And Purpose
SPEAKER_02Um, I've known you as a great friend, an artist, a musician, um, fantastic singer, songwriter. And then in this kind of second phase of our friendship in life, I know you as a thought leader in therapy and sex addiction, process addiction. And it's been fun to get to know this kind of new emerging side of you that has been more open about your recovery, and now you're helping other people as as a therapist. I remember the conversation we had at um what's the Mexican restaurant in town? The we had So Papillas. So papillas, and you were considering, I think that's where we talked about you considering going into this. Is that true? Or might be a good idea. I don't know.
SPEAKER_04Maybe I'm getting my stories mixed up. Anyways, I've eaten a lot of Mexicans, so you didn't really narrow that down at all.
SPEAKER_02I'm just so proud of where you're at and the work you've put in. You've got a beautiful family, and um now you're helping a lot of people in in this space, and we have not actually done a podcast specifically, I don't think, on pornography, and you're now helping other men kind of walk through their own journey in that, but you've been open about your your experience of your journey. So thanks for being willing to to talk through that some today.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, man. I uh you know, um I I wanted my name to be synonymous with porn use for the longest time. When you were a little boy, you just thought yes, and here we are. Dreams do come true.
SPEAKER_02Don't give up on your dreams, kids. One day you'll be on a podcast talking about your pornography use. Um talk a little bit about just kind of what the work you're doing now, just for people that that uh are are just meeting you for the first time. What talk about what you what are you doing right now, what in the world?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so I am a uh marriage and family therapist associate. Okay. Um, which means uh I am in the process of becoming a licensed marriage and family therapist here in Tennessee. Um we might get into my story later, but it took me a long time to figure out what I wanted to do. For a long time I was a musician. Um, so now I'm a 42-year-old man who's kind of starting over in a lot of ways. Um, but uh yeah, I'm I'm working with men. I one of the things we were talking about is using your story, using one story um as a way to uh connect with others, as a way to um kind of give back, as a calling. And um for the longest time I felt like porn addiction was the biggest boulder on my shoulder. And for that reason alone, it's like, yeah, this is something that I need to use to connect with other men.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04And like if I can find my way through this, I think this is probably a 12-step principle too. If I can find my way through this, I uh am obligated to help others.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, I love that. When do you if if we could just start with your story, if you're cool with that, because I we do want to get into some, you know, the roots behind it,
First Exposure And Early Escalation
SPEAKER_02all the different kind of stuff. But I I think stories are powerful, and I and I love that that you're willing to share parts of yours because I do think it's helpful for other guys who are are watching or listening. And we also have a lot of like spouses and partners that listen to this podcast too, which I think it's helpful to understand some of the story and the why, why behind um using porn and and other things like it. But when did it when do you remember it starting for you? Do you have a um memory of being a kid and this you know kind of jumping off or what is that? Jumping off, jumping kicking off, starting off. I when I said it, I was like, he's gonna mock me for that.
SPEAKER_04I can't be professional.
SPEAKER_02I know if I'm gonna yeah, no.
SPEAKER_04Um, yeah, dude. Um when did it start? You know, like a big area of shame for me was feeling like it started pre-puberty. Interesting. Like, I think I this might be TMI. I think I was probably acting out sexually before I even was equipped to you know, complete this task. Was it just a curiosity at that point, or do you just Yeah, I think there was an immediate pull towards it. I don't know if that's curiosity, I don't know if that's arousal, I don't know what it was, but it it was like it was like being drawn in, you know, like a certain magnetism towards it. I remember uh my mom had a Red Book magazine, which I don't even know what that magazine is now. I think it's probably for housewives or something like that. Okay, and there was a um a topless female in it, and like I remember that moment right now. I remember I was in my bedroom, I grabbed that magazine for some reason, was looking through it, and it was like Wow, something in your brain a flip was switched.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, wow, and that would have been a a flip was switched, a switch was flipped. I when you said I was like, I don't think that's right, but I understood what you meant.
SPEAKER_04Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02But you're young at this point. I mean, this is Yeah, I was probably five. Wow. Wow. And then this is just something that kind of stayed with you through teenage years into adulthood. Is there is there a time where you f where it became problematic for you where you're feeling like, hey, this is like it went from curiosity to like this is a I'm struggling, like I can't stop doing this.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think it um it just escalated.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_04It a perpetual escalation. Um I grew up in a really conservative Christian home. So that was problematic already, like um curiosity around sex, um acting out in certain ways that like you know, we're probably not kosher.
SPEAKER_02Right. You mean problematic too, like as far as it just wasn't it wasn't discussed? Because I know in in my story, it just wasn't something you would ever bring up. We didn't talk about sex in our in our home at all.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. We didn't talk about sex and it was just kind of like an unspoken thing, I think, of like, you know, sex is safe for marriage, right? And any kind of uh sure experience with it is like a no-no.
SPEAKER_01Right, right.
SPEAKER_04So it's like it's not like my dad ever sought me down, uh sat me down and was like, you know, your body's changing, son.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_02There wasn't what we do with this, yeah, yeah. There wasn't those conversations. So this this you carried this on into adulthood, I'm assuming into into marriage, and I mean, because a lot of guys that I've talked to that have struggled with this have also said, man, I just thought once I met someone or once I was married, or once like that, then I'll that'll solve all my problems. Yeah. You know, what was that experience like for you?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it was like that in a lot of ways. Um you dream about the first time you know, you're actually intimate with someone, and you think that that's going to um reduce the urge or satisfy all the cravings that you've been feeling. And what happens is you find out, wow, I've been using this thing that you know provides me endless novelty, endless um intensity, and now it's
Marriage, Expectations, And Reality
SPEAKER_04like I'm gonna go and and have everything satisfied.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, right.
SPEAKER_04It's it's an impossible task.
SPEAKER_02Such an unrealistic expectation that that we carry with us, you know, one of the damn very damaging parts of that is is that is what it does in our brain around expectations and reality and and all that all that stuff. What was getting I don't know how getting sober, what was that like for you? What was that that experience or that process like? Was it kind of like a one day you woke up and said, Hey, I need to do something about this, or was it more of a a process?
SPEAKER_04It was definitely a process. Okay, it was um a very painful process, to be completely honest. Um the f so I think I have been trying to get sober probably since I was in high school.
SPEAKER_02Really? Yeah. So even then you knew like this is something I'd I need to not be doing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. I think it's become more um evident as time has gone on. Um, the longer you're in it, the more you recognize this is not a sustaining thing. Like I'm sitting here dying of thirst and I'm drinking a canteen full of sand. Wow. Right? It's not filling me up in any way, you know? So I think even outside of my relationship with my wife, it it was becoming clearer that this is not something I need in my life. Well, yeah, that feeling was there, but it wasn't like the feeling just led to behavior change overnight. Right, right. I had many nights crying out to God, yeah, please heal me of this. I had many new years where I was making a resolution. This oh, this is the year. This is it, I'm I'm done. Um, and then you add my wife into the equation, multiple disclosures, um, multiple times where it got dug back up, you know, being caught, confessing, you know. Um so yeah, it was it was a long and rocky road. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02What is and we talked about
Long Road Toward Sobriety
SPEAKER_02this before we started um recording that sometimes I think we fall in love with with dates and longevity of sobriety and all that kind of stuff, and so much of this journey is is not about perfection, it's about us how we're how we're growing and evolving. And so I'm I'm not as curious about like the the date itself, but I'm I'm more curious around just kind of the moment where you felt like, hey, I feel like I'm making progress on this thing, and I'm in a place now where I feel I can start to give back and help other other people with it. Um, you know, what what did that look like for you? What was the key to finally I'm I'm trying to choose my words carefully because I don't think in an addiction, process addiction, it's ever one of those things where we check the box and was like, hey, uh, you know, I'm I'm done with this, I'm healed from this type thing. I think it's something that we every day continue to work our program and our process so that we don't fall back into it. Um but what helped you get to the point where you're like, I feel like I've got the right things in place where this is no longer a a huge struggle in my life?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I think my favorite one of my favorite words, it will always be like my if I did a New Year's word of the year, surrender.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I think just the posture of going, I'm gonna control this, I'm gonna keep this hidden and do this in my own power. I think just that shift in in posture or attitude or whatever to say I don't have to control this anymore. Yeah, I can I can struggle and it be okay. I think there's so much power that's released in that moment that like when I made that decision not to like live this lie anymore, it clicked. It's like, oh, obviously, like I can connect with people in this way. Like I this
Surrender As The Turning Point
SPEAKER_04can be like this can be like a really um meaningful um like what's the word I'm looking for? This can be something that not only is something that I've overcome, right, but becomes a really positive factor in my life.
SPEAKER_02Almost like a redemptive part of your life and story, yeah. Thank you. Was that the word?
SPEAKER_00Close enough?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02No, I'm tracking with you. I I feel similarly that way. And kind of where we opened the episode, we were joking about, you know, you never want this to become your personal brand. But at the same time, man, there's there's some there's some beauty in the honesty of connecting with other men over our struggles and our shortcoming and our brokenness and realizing like it's okay, like we're we all have something we're struggling with. And it's almost like I don't know if you felt this way, but but almost a an exhale of like, oh, I'm not a I'm not alone. I'm not the only one. And because specifically pornography, sex addiction, I think it's I think it's starting to become more uh talked about, but man, it's been so such a secretive, shameful thing for so long. And even now it's rare to find someone like yourself who's willing to say, Hey, I, you know, I don't really want to talk about this, but if it's gonna be helpful, I will. Um, because man, a lot of us just struggle with this in silence and don't connect with other people over it. I'm I'm curious, it was was that connection part of your story at all, whether it was there therapy or groups, or did you find your way into some kind of network of people that were also you know trying to live more open and free and honest, or was it more just a solo venture?
SPEAKER_04It was 100% a collaborative kind of community-based thing. Okay. Um, I was living in Georgia at the time. I started um I started by this is so like wild. I started as a small group leader in a church. Okay. Um, and through that ended up, you know, really trying to um be authentic and transparent with where.
Community And Group Work
SPEAKER_04I was at in my faith journey, ended up talking about pornography in group, met a couple guys in that group that struggled in the same way, started going to this um uh group called walking free. Okay. Um at the same time, had disclosed to my wife. Um, so it was just like all of a sudden I went from completely isolated, completely living this secret life to like my wife knows, I have a group of guys that know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I think that was such a huge part of it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, probably game changer for you in a lot of ways. Yeah. I was gonna ask you, kind of along those lines, when it comes to like many men think if I just have more willpower, like if I just if I can just lock in, discipline myself, get through this. Um, but but why is this in your opinion, why is this much more about you know, unresolved pain, um, intimacy disorder than it is just a mere like willpower thing?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. I think what happens is in the moments when we're triggered, we're actually entering a state of fight or flight.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_04And the part of our brain that really helps us make decisions, have resolve, um, is going offline. Right? We're we're not in our right state of mind. We don't have all our resources in that moment. So it's really not even like we don't have access to willpower in those moments. Right. What we're feeling and what we've used porn for is regulation. We're feeling dysregulated, we're feeling unsafe. Um, we have this tension in our bodies that is showing up. And porn has been our way to really like cope with that.
SPEAKER_02Right. Yeah. Well, it's interesting too, because you're as we were talking, I'm thinking about like just the dopamine cycle that happens in the brain and how we'll
Willpower Myths And Brain Science
SPEAKER_02continue to go back to this even though we hate it. Like, not in the moment, obviously, but like after, so it's like, man, we just we hate this part of ourselves, but there's something that draws us back to it. So there's got to be something going on in the brain, something that we're gaining from it that is drawing us back in. Um, you were talking before we started, and I hadn't really thought of it this way, but when I was in when I was in treatment, the first time that I really started to feel like peace, I actually remember exactly where I was at and what I was doing when I was like, man, maybe this is what peace felt like. I've described it as like the engine of my soul felt like it was in a constant state of being revved, and then it just was like it just like all of a sudden it like just went to an idol. And I was like, I actually checked it in with my therapist the next day, and um, she was like, No, I I think you're experiencing like peace, like that. And I it was so foreign to me that I thought something might have been wrong with me, um, which is yeah, insane to to think about. You were talking about pornography in terms of that it allowed us to be very present. And I hadn't heard anybody talk about that before because I've always seen it more as an escape, which it is, it's escape from reality, but at the same time, I wondered if if part of it is in that moment we're not feeling the anxiety, we're not feeling the engine revved up, we're actually it's a it's a a counterfeit version of what we're actually trying to get to in peace, which is being present. Yeah, can you talk about that just a little bit more and kind of how that impacts us? Because I I thought that was really profound the way you said that, because that that was definitely a draw for me. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04I think um one of the things I really like to do with my clients and I do for myself, you know, as I continue my own recovery journey, is um we we started off talking about the eight feelings, which is Jeff Dodd, and he's also got kind of this framework for emotional needs. Um, I think there's 12 of them.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_04Um and basically he he um alleges or or says these are needs. Like we need these um just as much as we need, you know, other things to survive. Like we're not really surviving and thriving without getting these needs met. So what I like to do is view po view addiction as an illegitimate search for the fulfillment of legitimate needs, right? And I like to look and try to inspect what am I needing that I'm reaching for pornography to try to fulfill.
SPEAKER_02Like there's a legitimate need there, and I don't know how to get it, so I'm gonna use this.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and one of the things that I was talking with you about is like I I don't know if it's ADD or just um a uh dopamine dependency or some other thing about me, but the feeling of presence and um inspiration and like being locked in a moment is such a um seldom occurrence in my life that pornography gave me that. It's like I can get I can click in when I'm writing a song and feel locked in and feel like I could go days without eating. It's like kind of like a flow state or something, you know just in the zone. Uh in the zone, and that feels so good to me because most of my experience is not that. It's like I'm one thought to another, I'm anxious about what's gonna happen later. Um I'm just very like all over the place.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So so that's a good feeling for me to have. I don't know what it's all about, but it's like I really like that feeling. Yeah, pornography
Porn As Counterfeit Presence
SPEAKER_04is a is a way to get there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. What are some tools? Because I I relate to what you're saying, and I'm sure a lot of people listening are too. What are some tools that you have that you use now? Because, like you said, to get that that need, that feeling. Obviously, you mentioned songwriting, which I know you still do, but uh for guys that are not songwriters, I mean, what are some ways that we can kind of battle back against that legitimate need we have to be locked in, to be present, to kind of check out for the rest of the rest of the world and all the different pressures and and anxiety that's coming at us?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think there's a lot of different tools. I I think what we're talking about is regulation and connection with ourselves. Okay. Um, and I love that terminology because when I'm kind of all over the place, scatterbrained, I'm not connected with myself. I'm just all up in my head, not in my body, I'm not in my heart. So um one of the one of the ways I do that is like a quiet meditation in the morning. Um, it's like a um a mindfulness exercise where I'm noticing just what I'm feeling in my body, I'm noticing what emotions are coming up, um, and I'm not just like spinning. Sure, you know. Um, so I think whatever we can do to connect with ourselves is a big part of it.
SPEAKER_02I love that. Yeah. Man, I I've found for me too, and I don't do this enough, but if I'll just go outside, like I know this sounds silly, but when it's when it's nice out, it's been cold here in Tennessee recently. But if I'll go out in the back, like green space area and play fetch with the dog barefoot, something about that, like even 10 minutes of it, yeah, I can just feel like just become ground, and I try to just be with the dog, be present, be throwing the ball or the frisbee or whatever. And I know I only reason I mention that is because like I even have shame that comes up when I say it because I'm like, well, that's the dumbest thing ever. But man, it that that stuff really works for me. Yeah, and it can be as simple as something like that of feeling, man. I feel anxious. I feel this is normally when I'd feel the urge to go act out. But instead, I can just take a walk or go play with the play with the dog or do something that gives me the same kind of I don't know, what would you call it? The same grounding, maybe grounding, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Sensuality.
SPEAKER_02Okay, unpack that. No, I love that word. I just don't know what it means in this context.
SPEAKER_04No, yeah. So this is kind of a hypothesis I have. Okay. Don't quote me on this. Don't quote me on this. I'm not I'm not a thought leader. I was offended by that terminology. Um I I wonder if a
Tools For Regulation And Grounding
SPEAKER_04lot of people who struggle with pornography addiction specifically, but maybe addiction in general, have a really hard time getting into their body. And and I use the word sensuality, like using our senses. Because so many times so often I'm locked up here.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_04I'm stuck in my head, I'm stuck in thoughts, kind of ruminating. And when I'm in that state of being, I'm not present to experience things sensually. Yes, right, and maybe something about that time with the dog gets you in your body, gets you away from your thoughts. It's like we're doing this repetitive thing that doesn't require anything, but I am moving, yeah. I am smelling, I'm seeing, I'm outside, I'm feeling. And that that pulls you into your body.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_04And I think maybe people that struggle with addiction have a hard time getting into their body. And like a drug's a great way to get into your body. Yeah. You know, if I'm drinking, I'm all of a sudden feeling it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04If I'm using pornography, it's like, yeah, I'm present, I'm out of my head, I'm in my body, you know. Yeah. So I think like that's the that's kind of the replacement, is instead of using this drug that has really bad unintended consequences, I'm gonna learn how to get into my body on my own.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04You know, the the the rub is it it requires more of me. And that's what makes this so appealing. Is like there's very little risk, there's very very little asked of me to get this momentary feeling that I'm looking for.
SPEAKER_02Well, and it's okay if you don't have a good answer for this, but for if if there was a guy so far you've done great. I'm actually kind of surprised. Um, if for for a guy that may be listening or watching this, and they're rationalizing it and saying, Well, what's the big deal, Tyler? I mean, like, not hurting anybody. Why like why is it so and damaging and destructing? And maybe we should have started there, but like I think there's people that might say, Man, you guys are making a big deal about this, especially in our culture today. There's a lot of people that say, Why is this even an issue? Why is this a problem? Why is this not a healthy way to get grounded and get present? Do you have an answer for that?
SPEAKER_04No, keep using no. I think um I think we've already kind of alluded to there's a chemical component in our brain that can be problematic. We are um we're kind of hijacking our dopamine system, which was really created to kind of get us to do something, right? I need to work for something so that I can feel the reward of it. Right. I think that's kind of a survival mechanism. Like I gotta eat, so I've got to go kill the animal so that I can eat, or tend to the crops, right? For our PETA friends listening. Right. Um, you know, I've got to do something to get this reward. Yeah. Right. So I think there's a a function there that gets kind of um messed with, right? I no longer have to do anything to get to the reward. Right. And what are the implications of that in my life? Yeah, right. Do I start having an inability to control my impulses? Am I reaching for cheap and easy fixes that aren't good for me? Whether that be compulsive eating, compulsive shopping, compulsive porn use. It's like, am I becoming a person that's more compulsive?
SPEAKER_02That's that's great. That's a great way of putting it. Well, because I think, you know, for me, my my goal right now in life is to be as connected as possible to God, to my friends, to my wife, to my kids. Like, I want to be connected. Those secretive things for me, or the things that are become compulsive, they actually they move me further away from that goal. Like, especially
Why Porn Use Is Harmful
SPEAKER_02if I'm doing something in secret or with shame or whatever. I I can't show up to the people that I love more connected when I'm living in this secrecy and in this shame. And the other thing I've seen too, and I'm wondering if you have any comments on this, is it feels like most of the time my buddies who have struggled with this, it doesn't just stop with porn use. It's like the longer they get into it, the more, the deeper the rabbit hole gets to where it does become even more destructive to them, to other people that they love. And so, like the the trajectory of that usually is towards more damaging and destructive. And I don't have any I'm I'm sure there's science on it. I personally don't have any science on it, just my experience. No, I don't, I'm not a scientist. I just know my buddies have said, hey, I started here, and before I knew it, it was you know acting out that was way more damaging or destructive.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. So I think what you're talking about, we we've got this kind of like chemical piece to it, like our reward system and how that can get kind of out of whack. And that can be bad for us personally, right? If it's compulsive spending or shopping, we're spending too much money than we should. If it's compulsive eating, which would be a co-addiction.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_04For me. Okay. Love me some pizza. Yes, I really some pizza. If I have a hard day emotionally at work, you're looking for the the pantry. I'm saying, hey, babe, you you're not at Costco right now, are you? Could you bring home one of those $9.99 specials?
SPEAKER_02Dude, shout out Costco, though. My full family can go to Costco and eat for like $10.
SPEAKER_04Man, they're not changing that price on the hot dog soda deal. I love it.
SPEAKER_02I love it. Thanks, Costco.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So that's one piece of it. And that's all kind of like personal consequences, right? Like, I'm not a person who um can I I'm not as like resolute in working for the reward that I want. But I think another thing you said is like relationally, yeah, how that affects us. Yeah. And if relationally we're illegitimately and momentarily satisfying the need for intimacy, which is these emotional needs that we're talking about, right? That's intimacy, then not only are we kicking the can down the road, meaning I'm not dealing with these at all right now, but after we use, we're in a greater deficit than we were before.
SPEAKER_01Right?
SPEAKER_04It's like I'm feeling lonely. Well, porn makes me feel not lonely for a little bit. But what happens is not only have I not sought a legitimate fulfillment of that loneliness feeling, but now I feel even more lonely. Right. Right? Right. Because I'm ashamed of myself. Maybe I'm escalating in in what I'm looking at and and it contradicts with my value system. And like I feel even less worthy of true connection.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It's so good. It's so true. You know, the other thing I was thinking of, at least in my story, is the more connected or you know, more sober, I should say, that that I get in my life, the more I'm actually able to give humans back their dignity as well. And I think a lot of people who might be really deep into their addiction, and I and I
Empathy, Dignity, And Integration
SPEAKER_02I've heard this said a lot, but it's it's said with a lot of sh a lot of shame behind it, as far as like, man, that's that's someone's daughter or son, or it's like you you and I I think someone that's deep in the addiction, they're so disconnected from reality that they're not really able to even connect the dots on that. But I do think there is some validity to to as we begin to get more present, more connected, and and be able to grow in our empathy. I mean, empathy is something that I've just really wrestled with in my life. You know, part of not being able to be present in my own body has been not able to see people or or understand or or relate to what they're experiencing. But I do think that has become a bigger part of it for me of like being able to see other human beings and be able to empathize with other humans and say, hey, this is I am hurting myself for sure. But also as I try to respect and restore dignity back to other people, to be able to say, hey, this is these are these are real people and this is real, like you know, starting to connect it. Is that make any sense what what I'm saying? Is that you know, because I I feel like that's a part of it for me is being able to say, I want to show up in this world, especially in a in a day and age where I feel like we've we're losing the ability for nuance and the ability to like really understand people and have empathy. We see that in politics and everything else where it's so black and white all the time. Um I just I've I felt like I feel like the more sober I get, the more I'm able to like humanize and give people their dignity.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I think that makes sense. I you know, I'm not I I would ask you to say that another way if we, you know, weren't on a podcast right now. Okay. But I think what comes up in me when you say that is in the midst of addiction, I'm living two realities. I'm living the the the people facing reality and I'm living my secret life reality.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_04And until they reconcile, until those two realities reconcile, they're not reconciled.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_04And I'm not feeling I'm not feeling in a real palpable way the consequences of my own brokenness. And and when I live in denial of that, I I cannot see other people I can see other people's brokenness as an indictment. Whereas my own, it's it hasn't been integrated into like the two lives becoming one. So that makes me less empathetic, less humble.
SPEAKER_02So you're saying part of it is not actually even being able to realize the the depth of your own what what's actually broken in you.
SPEAKER_04And well, what what recovery does, and you know, like a big part of 12 step is what are my moral failures? How do I make amends for them? And I think when you do that, you're putting those two worlds together, and when you've done that, you start seeing other people in that through that lens.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Right? Like I am so aware of my brokenness, I'm so aware of like my need for grace that I can extend that to others now because I've really had to reconcile that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, man, that really rings, that rings true for me. Um I want to talk just for a minute about the the betrayed partner side of things. We have a lot of people listening, and again, I you know, I want to be careful with this too, you know, but you do this work and you work with the couples and partners and all that kind of stuff. But one thing that comes up a lot is why wasn't I enough? You know, why like why did you have to turn to this? And I'm just wondering if you could kind of break down um why this addiction is maybe not so much about attractiveness or even like sexual desire for someone else.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah, I think a big piece of that is what we've been talking about, just this idea of the reward system.
Betrayed Partner Pain And Cycles
SPEAKER_04And really so much of that is less about um like this uh sexual gratification within the the user and more about like this is a this is the way that I've coped with a lack of intimacy in my life. Real intimacy, real security. So what what's ha what's happening in the user is like I am feeling completely dysregulated, completely unsafe, completely Whatever, there's this internal tension inside of me, and I've conditioned my brain to reach out for this thing because I know it's gonna regulate me.
SPEAKER_02Right. It's not gonna reject me. I'm gonna get all the yeah, it it checks all those boxes.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So that's a piece of it. Okay. And then another piece of it is Um It's all the reward possible with none of the risk. And all the reward possible means limitless novelty, limitless intensity. Um and and that's impossible to compete with.
SPEAKER_02Right. Right. What are some of the common like barriers, hurdles, like if you're when you're working with couples, like what are some of the common misconceptions and things that come up when on on this topic when you're helping couples process through this together?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah, I think it's um it's kind of a cycle. That's the way I view it. Is the the um betrayed partner has so much valid pain and hurt betrayal that they're dealing with, and they need that validated and they need to feel safe in that. Like I can express this, I can be heard in this, and I can be I can have my partner send a a signal back to me for these things. Well, unfortunately, what happens when we're dealing with this is when they express their hurt, that exasperates the shame that the partner is feeling. When the partner feels shame, they don't feel safe to show up in the way that they need to to rebuild trust. So it's like you've got two people that are really kind of lost in the sauce of this dynamic that's happening. Right. And that can be really difficult.
SPEAKER_02That can spiral probably pretty quick. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. Because what's happening is both of them are feeling insecure and they're not getting a message of security from their partner.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And it's it's a big ask, right? It's like this person has come out and revealed the most shameful thing in their life. They've never done it before, and now they're feeling the most shame they've ever felt in their life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04This person is hurt by the person that was supposed to not hurt them. Right.
SPEAKER_02And it feels personal. It doesn't feel detached from them.
SPEAKER_04Exactly. Yes. And it's the heart, it's one of the biggest hurts they've ever felt in their life. The problem is they're both expressing that and and sending messages of invalidation to the other. Yeah. Like you're saying this because like you're trying to twist the knife of my shame. Like I came forward to you and disclosed this, and like, you know, right. I need a pat on the back because that was really hard for me. Right. But then the other is like, well, you hurt me in a way that no one's ever hurt me before. Yeah. Right. So it's it's really difficult.
SPEAKER_02It's tricky, man. How do you help these couples navigate through this? Because that I mean that that can feel kind of impossible, but I know it's not a it's not
Rebuilding Safety Without Linear Timelines
SPEAKER_02a quick fix, but it is possible to get to that place. How do you help couples start taking that step?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think um I think a a big thing to remember is like uh it's not a linear path.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_04You know, like um just because the offending partner is showing up the right way now doesn't mean that the betrayed partner is just gonna like keep getting more trusting as time goes by, right? They have the it's their prerogative to experience the feelings that are coming up however they can. Right. We've got to re-establish safety for both partners, safety to show up authentically, safety to um express the things that are coming up in a way that doesn't feel like a weapon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's really hard to it's almost like the the um the betrayed partner has relational equity now because I'm not the one that hurt the other person.
SPEAKER_03Right, right.
SPEAKER_04And it seems unfair to be like, well, let's really try to validate their shame and honor what they're going through after they punched you in the face.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. It's man, it's I'm I'm really glad that you you said it that way because that that that rings true for a lot of people that I think have gone through, and I know for me, have gone through treatment and have realized that in a lot of ways we felt like we were in so much pain that we needed c care and comfort. And at the same time, we really hurt and traumatize other people who are feeling like, man, you did this to me. And it it's a really I mean, I think it was why you need other people, other friends, other brothers in recovery to like help comfort you when the person you betrayed or the people you betrayed are not at that point where they can see that or or do that. Like you've got to be able to get that need met somewhere. Yeah, but it is it really is like it messes with your mind because you're like, Yeah, I know that I've done things that have hurt people, and I did those things because I was in a lot of pain. And it's kind of a a brutal cycle that I the only way I know through it is through honest connection, yeah. Because it's too it would be too much for me personally to carry on my own without other people, like valiant was that for me, yeah. Like Valiant was the people that said, yeah, we're not gonna like excuse the consequences and the hurt, but we're also gonna like make sense of it. Like I remember them saying, like, we're not gonna make excuses, but there are reasons, and the reasons help you with the shame because it's like, oh, it in light of your story, it makes sense that you would turn to this. Yeah, and it's it's showing some compassion on how I got here and I was using this to survive. Now I don't need it anymore. I've got the the tools for that, but yeah, it it it is such a messy thing that we need therapists and friends and honest people in our life to help us with.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think what you're describing is safety.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_04And you know, the goal for the the the couple that's working through this is safety. Yeah. But sometimes like responsibilities kind of negate safety,
Surrender And Accountability In Partnership
SPEAKER_04meaning like we both have skin in the game of this relationship. We're both biased, we're both a part of it, right? So there's inherently less safety in that. Whereas a recovery group partner is not as emotionally invested. Right. Does that make sense? Totally. I don't know if I said that well, but like, yeah, it's like I need to be able, I need an outlet for all the things that I'm carrying, and sometimes the things that I'm carrying really impact my partner. Yeah. So it's not fair for me to have her be the one that's walking through this with me.
SPEAKER_02Right. Because a lot of times our brothers, they're not as personally affected by it, they don't feel harmed.
SPEAKER_04They're not caught in that cycle I was talking about.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right. Yeah, that's good.
SPEAKER_04And that goes for the betrayed partner as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04It's like I need a place where I can vent about this or process this in a way that I don't have to pull punches. That's right. Right? Because when I have to pull punches, it doesn't feel like I'm really venting.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and you're codependently trying to manage the other person's how they're gonna receive this or whatever. That part is is so so true. I wanted to ask you. Sorry, I might I was thinking about something else. I wanted to comment on that. Costco pizza. Uh you got that one straight to Costco after this. Um but no, dude, that all that is so oh, I remember what it was. I was gonna say, for someone who's in this, I'm I'm I'm gonna talk specifically to the to the men, that's because that's Valiant works with, but this is not an issue only for men. I mean, this is you know, the the the data around women struggling with this and the rise. I mean, it's like it's not a male, it's definitely growing. Um, but there's gonna be moments to your point about safety, where we're going to have to give up control and goes back to that surrender word in order for our partner to feel safe. And for me, I'll just say it feels like it can feel like an attack on my character, my pride, my it brings up a lot of fear, a lot of shame. Um, you know, I I still have and always will have accountability software on my devices and all that kind of stuff. If something happens, it just happened this week, if something happens with that software that makes uh my wife feel unsafe and she brings it to my attention, my default response is not how do I help you feel the most safe in this scenario? My default response still is, why is it still an issue? Oh, this is such a pain in the butt. Like, why do I got to deal with this? And it just feels like flopper passes, and I just want my freedom and whatever. Then it's a great reminder that, hey, my job right now is to help her feel safe and to surrender and say, What do you what do you need? What do we need to do right now? And that's honestly like it's a better way to because I like being able to say, you know, there's nothing here for you to find. That's a really great place to be. But I just wanted to, you know, get your thoughts on that because it's not like there's at least for us, there's not a time where like this isn't something that where
First Steps: Safe, Small, Brave
SPEAKER_02safety is not still paramount for her and whatever it takes for her to be safe. But it does there's a um, I want to say sacrifice because it doesn't feel that way because it is loving, but there is a surrender that has to continually happen of our need to control or need to be, I don't know, right, or you know, I don't know if that makes any sense or not, but that's been a huge part of our recovery.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I think what happens in that moment is you both slip into a protective stance, right? Oh, yeah. This thing has happened that feels dangerous. Feels dangerous for you in that moment, feels dangerous for your wife in that moment. Right. And it's really hard to feel like you're in danger and pull someone else out of danger.
SPEAKER_02It's like the old your foot caught in a bear trap thing, you know, it's like it's hard to rescue someone else when you feel like you're you're stuck.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I think hopefully, like you've done enough work that has allowed you to put the mask on on the airplane so that you can help your partner put their mask on as well. Yeah. But it's that's a dynamic that outside of addiction shows up. It shows up in every relationship where the security is in jeopardy. And how are we gonna get back to where we're both sending each other the signals that we're safe? Yeah, and that we're not gonna hurt each other.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, super helpful. All right. So last thing I want to ask you about if the if there's a guy listening to this or any really anybody listening, and they're like, Man, I'm I'm struggling. Y'all are talking to me, but I don't know where to start because it feels like if I break out of my secrecy and silence with this, I don't know what the repercussion is gonna be. I don't know if I want to deal with the consequence of this. Like, how do you help guys begin to take that courageous first step? You lead groups and you call them brave because that's I mean, it really it takes a lot, and it seems like there could be a lot to lose on the other side of kind of a disclosure or a confession of some sort. So, how do you help us get out of the darkness and out of the shame and into like into the light?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I'm glad you asked that. That's a big part of my story, is like I think when I was still living in denial, I had this fear that taking any step would mean complete exposure. You know, like I'm either in this world of you know hiddenness or I'm fully out and everyone knows everything. Right, right. I have to be on a billboard saying, like, I looked at porn today. What I think is so important and what I try to provide in brave groups is like let's take a small step that doesn't feel like that.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_04Right? Let's let's
Disclosure Done Well
SPEAKER_04form some relationships that encourage vulnerability, that encourage stepping out into the light, right? But doesn't feel like you're on you're you're immediately, you know, telling the whole world your story. Yeah. So like for me, safety is one of the biggest things. Like, I don't want to jump right to let's let's go through these steps or let's let's um do a disclosure process or whatever. Like let's practice showing doing this process in a really safe environment with other guys who get it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's really helpful to hear too, especially when it comes to because you mentioned disclosure. I think some guys want to start to like the they want to be in the light, they want to, you know, kind of get move past this where it's not such a stronghold in their life. And so they'll kind of start teasing out a little bit here and there, um, especially with like a partner. And I'm curious your thoughts on the disclosure process and how to go about doing that and doing that well, because what I've heard is that these partial disclosures can sometimes be more harmful if you're just kind of like leaking out a little bit of time and then they find out oh, there's more, oh, and there's more, and there's more. So, how do you encourage specifically men who are going through this on like the first step may not be coming clean to your wife, and it's not necessarily about being dishonest, it's about making sure you know you're caring, caring for it goes back to the safety thing you're talking about, I guess.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, that's so true. Like teasing it out like that can be damaging for sure. So I think my perspective is let's have a one and done that's comprehensive, you know, but let's let's wait until we're both at a place where um that's not gonna be harmful. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, like um, let's go through the recover uh the recovery process in the sense that we're learning how to be vulnerable, we're learning how to reach out when we're in need, we're learning how to do these things and feeling like the um the reward of that, feeling the good, the good of that and kind of building on that.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I think it was helpful for me to know too that there's an actual process for disclosure to that, like a therapeutic
Hope: Recovery As A Gift
SPEAKER_02process you can work where it's not I'm on my own here. Like I know for me it was helpful to have a team of people guiding me through what to say, not to say, what what she wanted, you know all that kind of stuff. And so it definitely doesn't not something you have to navigate alone by any stretch. Yeah. So I wanted to close with this. Just offer us some hope, man, for for the men and women that are listening. They're like either they're they're feeling betrayed or you know, or they're in the middle of their addiction. What can life look like on the other side of of sex addiction, pornography addiction?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Um I say this a lot, um, so it's gonna sound cliche to me. I hope it doesn't sound cliche to you. But I've I genuinely believe that everyone should go through recovery. I genuinely believe that if at the end of addiction someone goes through recovery, then that addiction was a gift. If at the end of addiction someone hasn't like fully gone through recovery, then it's it it really sucks. But I guess what I'm saying is um, you know, kind of getting back to these needs, we're we're um participating in this behavior because we never really learned how to how to make sense of these. We we never really learned, you know, what to do when these feel so big inside of us. And recovery is not about stopping a behavior, it's about relearning how to actually connect with myself and with other people. Right. And if you've ever felt that in a way that um was profound, that's a transcendent experience. Yeah, you know, real connection, real relational connection, security, safety is profound. Yeah, and it's worth it. And I think all addiction is like not knowing how to how to do that. So if you can learn how to do that, your life will be vastly different.
SPEAKER_02Well, thanks
Closing And Resource Reminder
SPEAKER_02again to my buddy Tyler for coming on and sharing some of his story and just a lot of helpful stuff in there. I tell you what, as I was listening back to that episode, um, just so grateful for friends to be on this journey with. Uh, when Tyler and I first met, I was not living in recovery. And um, just the friendship and just being able to journey together through this is really special, and we want that for you too. We don't want you to have to journey alone. Whether you're a clinician or therapist, whether you're a spouse, whether you're someone who is in active addiction, whether you're in recovery, uh, we want you to be connected. We don't want you to be alone. And so please reach out to us, go to ValiantLiving.com. Also, don't forget to pick up that resource on the hidden battle. Um, that's at ValiantLiving.com slash episode 57. All right, thanks again for listening. We hope this was encouraging to you that you learned something and that you feel more connected by listening to this. So until next time, let's say thank you for listening to the Valiant Living Podcast.
