The Loving Leverage Podcast
Welcome to The Loving Leverage Podcast, presented by Valiant Living, where we help you love someone through addiction without losing yourself in the process.
If someone you love is struggling with addiction, you know how heavy that weight can be. You want to help, but nothing seems to work. This podcast is for you. Host Drew Powell (Recovery Advocate and Valiant Living alumnus) sits down with betrayal trauma experts, CSATs, therapists, betrayed partners, and alumni living in recovery, along with Valiant Living Founder and CEO Michael Dinneen, LCSW, CSAT-S, creator of the Loving Leverage™ framework.
Valiant Living has been restoring lives and families since 2017. Fully accredited by The Joint Commission, Valiant offers residential care, PHP, IOP, and detox services for men and their families, and has earned a national reputation as a premier treatment program for men ages 26 and older.
If you or someone you love is ready for help, call us at 720-669-1285 or visit valiantliving.com. We'd love to have a conversation with you.
The Loving Leverage Podcast
From Betrayal To Boundaries: A Partner’s Journey Through Sex Addiction, Disclosure, And Renewal
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Your gut knows before the facts arrive. That’s where this story begins: a widow and mom who rebuilt her life, fell in love, and then felt the quiet signal that something was wrong. What followed wasn’t a straight line to healing. It was a maze of gaslighting, a painful trio of discoveries, and the realization that love alone can’t cure compulsive sexual behavior.
We walk through the exact moments that changed everything: the financial paper trail that made denial impossible, the decision to step out of detective mode, and the commitment to let professionals guide a structured disclosure. You’ll hear why separation and space were essential, how a CSAT therapist reframed betrayal trauma, and the practical boundaries that now keep the home safe: no cash, third‑party device accountability, and clear, immediate conversations. We talk trust as behavior over time, not vows; daily accountability instead of grand promises; and why your partner should not be your sobriety cop.
This isn’t a fairy tale or a lecture. It’s a real-time blueprint for partners and families facing sex addiction: how to protect your sanity, rebuild dignity, and decide your future without rushing the clock. We also explore the power of changing environments—retirement, a move across states, launching kids—and how new rhythms can lower triggers and raise connection. The result isn’t perfect. It’s honest, durable, and better than before.
If you’re navigating betrayal, wondering whether to stay, go, or pause, you’ll find validation, language, and next steps you can use today. Listen for the tools, stay for the hope, and leave with a plan.
If this helped you, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs it, and leave a quick review—your words help others find their way to hope.
If you or someone you love is struggling with addiction, you don’t have to face it alone.
Valiant Living helps men and their families move from crisis to stability through clinically driven care, community, and hope.
Learn more about our programs at www.valiantliving.com
or call us confidentially at (720) 796-6885 to speak with someone who can help.
Why Share This Story
SPEAKER_02Well, hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Valiant Living Podcast. Today is a very, very special episode. It's always really sacred when a partner or a spouse is willing to share their story and walk into a cover. We've really found a value that the spouse, the partner, and the family members really can make all the difference in a person's recovery. And in some ways, in my opinion, it's absolutely miraculous to see the work that is put into it. Someone still chooses to do the work. And that's exactly what we see in the lead story today. Her husband becoming a dear friend of mine is a part of the diet. I love my program. We put one to the program and as a couple, they have chosen to really do the work to make it fine all the feeling. And it's it's really incredible. I can't wait for you to hear her story. In addition, we've created a resource called Loving Leverage. It's a white guide very difficult. Really, what we've found is sometimes in recovery specific recovery. That can be the hardest part is to know how to draw these calories and use what we call loving leverage. So you can pick that up at dietliving.com slash episode 55. Alright, let's get started today with the I Living. I want to start with right before we hit record, um, you just said something of the reason why you're doing this. Can we just start there? Why in the world would you come on a podcast and tell any part of the story and the what you've been through over the last few years?
SPEAKER_00Um, you know, in the very beginning of all of this, I
The Resource: Loving Leverage
SPEAKER_00had like nowhere to turn, nowhere to go. And I remember saying to a new therapist that I just met, like, do you remember the old school like um screensavers on your laptop that used to just scroll like the same same phrase? I used to have this like scrolling thoughts in my brain over and over again of you know what he's doing behind my back and how this is unfolding. And I couldn't make it stop. And I'm like, where do I go? What do I do? Just make it stop, just make it stop. And I didn't know who to talk to or how I could get through this. I knew it was greater than what I was capable of doing. And I just could not find anybody to connect with on it. And I I find for me, connecting with other people who've been through similar experiences has helped me the most in this and in previous traumas of my life. And so I really just I want so badly to be able to reach those women out there that are in that spot that I was in, you know, three, four, five years ago, whatever it was, say it's gonna be okay. You know, you're gonna get through this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, I'm so grateful. I mean, I I think I don't want to speak for you, but none of us anticipated this being our story. But now that
Before Discovery: Love And Loss
SPEAKER_02it is, I'm grateful for people like you who are willing to, you know, put themselves out there a little bit and get a little bit vulnerable. I don't think you ever intended to be a podcast influencer on this topic, but um but thank you for for the courage it takes to have a conversation about this. Take me back to just yeah, I'm just thinking about the women who are listening, that might be a similar place to where you were before everything came to light. How would you describe just your inner world, your life before the discoveries?
SPEAKER_00Um, well I um I'll start with I'm gonna go a little bit farther back than I thought we expect. But when I first met John, I was um I had lived through my first year of being um widowed. My first husband had passed away. I was a single mom. I had two young daughters. Um, I was also a brand new nurse. I just finished nursing school and I was, you know, finally able to have a job that I could support us long term, would not not know if I would ever meet somebody again or if you know my life would be better having lost him. And um, so there was um I felt very like fortunate to have met John and um for our connection to go so well in the beginning. I didn't really believe when my first husband died that anybody would be able to kind of fill those shoes, you know, that anybody would love us as much as he did, or that anybody could, you know, take care of us the way he did.
SPEAKER_02When you say us, you're referring to your myself and my kids. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00I my goal in life growing up was to create a family that was solid and strong. And you know, I I had a lot of broken relationships in my early life childhood and my family. So I wanted to create something even better. And it was um when I met John, you know, in the beginning of our relationship, I felt like, oh my gosh, he's he's amazing. I wish I would have met him, you know, 10 years ago, 20 years ago. Um and and so I really thought like my life was finally turning around, things are gonna get better, my kids were so happy, they love him to death, they bonded really quickly with him, um, we're very attached to him. And um, you know, I thought things were really going well for us, actually.
Gut Feelings And Gaslighting
SPEAKER_02Um Yeah, and so at that point, how long into the relationship were you when things started to feel well, what did they feel? Was there a time where they started feeling off, or did you ever sense that something might be wrong?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, I I think we dated for about oh my gosh, only like three months before he moved in with us. Um but I think we lived together for like a year maybe before we got engaged. And once we got engaged, I started to kind of think I had that gut feeling like something was off. I wasn't sure what, but I was like, I'm just not sure, you know. I think he might be saying somebody or anybody or other people, you know, more than one. I I just felt like there was something, but I never could pinpoint it and I never could like prove any of it. Um, but I wasn't I didn't know. I just had a weird gut feeling, right? I to this day I remember Can I pause you right there?
SPEAKER_02What what that always blows my mind because I hear that quite a bit in these stories. I don't know if it's just women's intuition or the gut feeling. Can you describe a little bit of that?
SPEAKER_00So it's things like um his inability to make good solid eye contact on basic conversations. Or um, you know, he comes home from work and like the first thing I want to do is welcome him with a hug and a kiss, and he's like irritated by it, you know. Yeah, or um and that was different.
SPEAKER_02He wasn't like that in the beginning. Was that a change?
SPEAKER_00Um John's always been a little difficult to communicate with at this point. Like I didn't feel like he was as good of a communicator as my previous relationships, and so I thought, well, maybe, you know, this is just who he is. He's John's British, if we haven't talked about that yet. And I kind of blamed that. I kind of was like, well, he's very blunt. He's a British guy. Like, you just they're not good at communicating, but I know deep down he loves me. You know what I mean? Right, right. I just thought he was raised in a home where you know there's not a lot of touchy-feely emotions going on. And so this is just who he is. And so, you know, I thought if I just love him enough, he'll learn from me and it's gonna get better. And it just never did.
SPEAKER_02Let's take a let's take a really quick rabbit hole because I want you to speak to the women who are listening right now that are feeling something similar or have felt something similar. What would you say to them, or what would you say to yours said to yourself about that gut feeling? Like if you had to go back.
SPEAKER_00But I I mean, trust your gut, your gut does not lie to you. It never lied to me. Of all the times I've ever had, you know, all like I said, we've had multiple discoveries, and of all the discoveries I knew every time. And I would, I'd shove away those feelings like you're you're crazy, you're crazy, stop thinking that. And to be fair, he made me feel like I was crazy. He was like the master gaslighter. So he he knew that it he could turn it around on me, and I would call my own son crazy.
SPEAKER_02And the addicts, we are so good. I mean, uh gaslighting or covering our. I mean, we really I mean we're not that good because at least those of us are in recovery at some point, you know, thankfully, you know, we had the grace of of the discovery and getting helping and healthy. But man, we know how to make our partners feel completely foolish and dumb and way off track and question themselves and totally all that stuff. But you're saying honor what's going on in your body, what you're doing.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and it's really hard because you have to you really have to put a hard stop to that. Look, no, I don't believe you. Like there's something telling me otherwise, and I don't believe you. Yeah, and you have to just allow that. You don't and and take the risk in being wrong, you know, like make him prove it to you.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00You know, I I just think if I would have pushed harder back then, I might have driven him away and he might have been gone. And and he did that with several relationships prior to me. Um, a lot of women I think pressed, and so he walked away, you know, and he could have walked away from me. And there were times where he tried to, but if you don't and you just continue to go, I guess he's right, I'm crazy. It's it's such a terrible go down.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, if you had to name an emotion that you felt during that time, what was the what was up the top plate for you at that in that season?
SPEAKER_00Oh gosh, so many emotions at that time. Um you know, in a lot of ways I felt stupid.
SPEAKER_02Like a shame type thing.
SPEAKER_00Like I'm just yes, yes, like I am just so dumb right now, and I'm ashamed of how like little self-respect that
Shame, Fear, And Self‑Sacrifice
SPEAKER_00I was giving myself. Because I knew, and I I was gonna touch on this. I I knew the morning, so John and I had planned a wedding in Kauai, and we were basically eloping with the girl and my daughters. And I knew the day we got on the plane that morning I woke up, got into the shower, and I stood in the shower and said to myself, it's not too late. You can call this whole thing off right now. You know he's cheating on you. But I convinced myself not to because I said, It's gonna be different when we're married.
SPEAKER_02The marriage is gonna solve the issue.
SPEAKER_00We're gonna have this piece of paper, and suddenly he's gonna feel committed and it's all gonna change.
SPEAKER_02Magical piece of paper.
SPEAKER_00Well, we laugh now, but that's not uncommon. I convinced myself these silly things because I was like, nope, it's gonna get better. And I can make it better. I can just love him enough to make it better. Right.
SPEAKER_02Well, and what comes up for me as you're sharing your story too, and and I don't know if you relate to this at all or not, it's okay if you don't, but there's just fear is what I feel too. Like, what happens if I confront him? And what happens if he does walk out? What happens to my kids? And they've already they've already lost a dad. And 100% that comes up for me. Were you thinking any of that stuff?
SPEAKER_00Every single day.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00To this day, I I fear that my kids will lose him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's scary, especially for that.
SPEAKER_00That was I wanted for them to not lose him more than I was willing to make it better for myself. Like I was willing to accept whatever he was doing if it meant that my kids didn't have to lose another dad.
SPEAKER_02Interesting. So you were in like a self-sacrifice mode of like, I'll take one for the team here so they don't have to lose.
SPEAKER_00I I think if I didn't have them, I would have left John early on.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_00But that's what the mom will do to you. I I just didn't want them to go through it again. I knew how much they loved him and how attached they were. And I didn't want them to go through it again. I feared that they would never have, you know, their own solid adult male relationships if I did this to them over and over again.
SPEAKER_02If they lost and lost and it's so interesting, I was literally about to ask you because I think so many women carry this weight of whether it's confusion or self-doubt or or a responsibility that's not theirs. Because you were literally saying, if I do something about this, I'm gonna potentially damage my daughters. And you had nothing to do with what was going on, but you still carried that responsibility like it was yours.
SPEAKER_00A hundred percent, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Talk about that.
SPEAKER_00It's my job to protect them, and it's an instinct a parent has that I will protect them to this day, like as best I can. And in my mind, that's how I was protecting them. Yeah, you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_02This is so this is so powerful. Like I'm feeling a full range of emotions right now. I'm gonna have to go get well it because it's because I have sadness that comes up too, like both for you and also for any uh you know, spouse or partner that has been betrayed and how much they carry the weight of the responsibility when it's in some ways it's something being done to them. And I do also want to talk about you doing a lot of your own work because I think that's something really special that that you have done. But still, it's like this is something that's happening to you, and you're you're feeling it as if you're the one doing it almost. That may not be fair to say that may go too extreme, but you're you're feeling a weight of responsibility.
SPEAKER_00Like with the guilt, the guilt and the response.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Talk a little bit about that because you you were doing you had started pretty early on doing some of your own work and your own therapy, is that right? Or was it was that later in the after the discovery?
SPEAKER_00Um you know, uh, in the very well, the first, well, I I I kind of have three major discoveries that I define within our relationship. The first was like a very, very first um finding pornography on the computer. I was like helping one of my daughters do homework, and we were starting to Google like geometry questions, and I started to see pre Googles that were like inappropriate, and I was embarrassed thinking, oh god, I hope she didn't see that. Like, but that was the first time I found pornography on the computer, and so there was a confrontation about that. But that's all I thought it was for a long time. So the second major discovery was the first time um that there was proof of interaction with some another
The Three Discoveries
SPEAKER_00woman, and it was like um also on a computer through texting and stuff, but sort of lost my train of thought on the question that you asked before that.
SPEAKER_02Well, I was talking about you doing your own work and you were describing the different different discoveries through the years.
SPEAKER_00Right. So that discovery led to um a couple's work, right? We went into marriage therapy together because if that discovery confronted him with each discovery? Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. The first one was just, oh, you know, we don't need therapy. You don't need therapy, I don't need therapy. We I'm just stooding that. I didn't know it bothered you. Okay, it bothers me. Okay, I'll stop. Done. Gotcha. Right? It was that kind of thing. Yeah. And so then the next one being that there was that um, you know, like a a massage or an escort or something like that. And I was like, What are you kidding? What the heck is this? Like what? Like, and I mean, I knew these things existed, I guess, but I just never I don't know. It was all new to me. Anyway, that led to couples work. That led to, look, there's a reason in my mind, this is so oh, I think back, this is so sad for me. In my mind, I was doing something wrong if he was seeking it out somewhere else. And so I wanted to fix this together. Like, what can I do to be better for you? What can I do to make you only want me? Like, what I love you, I don't want to lose you, tell me what to do kind of thing. And we did this, he was like, I'll go to couples therapy. Okay, great, I'll go. Like, I'll do whatever you tell me to do.
SPEAKER_02Right, right.
SPEAKER_00Today I look back, I'm like, oh, that's so off. But anyway, so then that led to couples therapy. And I realized quickly in there that this was not about me. And this is not, he's unwilling to admit that he has a problem, but I was starting to realize he has a problem.
SPEAKER_02How did you get to that place? Because I because I think there's gonna be a lot of people listening to this that are gonna really relate to if I did something or changed something about myself, it would help solve his problem for him. How did you get to that place where you started to understand this is not a me thing?
SPEAKER_00Really, that therapist suggested an addiction. That therapist said, you know, John, should we talk about whether you have an addiction here and these behaviors if they are, you know, compulsive, if you can control this? And um, I started to think. Okay, let's talk about that for a little while. That John avoided that, avoided that, avoided that. No, no, no, no, no. I don't, I can stop anytime I want. No, no, no, no, no. I I don't know. Uh it's not about her, it's not her, you know. But there was really no why then. There was really no, to me, an excuse for the behavior outside of he can't stop himself. Um, but it was in that therapy that I saw that because I realized, you know, and the therapist would say this to me. I it's there's other things that are triggering this. It's not, you know, it's not that I'm not good enough. It's there's other because he really wanted to dive into all these other areas that I didn't think we had problems in. And and the truth be told, we had we had a great relationship outside of this one thing. Sure. Like I always thought, you know, maybe we didn't communicate really well yet, but I always felt like we were such a good fit. We had so much in common. We have so many of the same likes and dislikes and just hopes and goals and dreams for our life. And um, I just thought we fit so well outside of this one thing, which is obviously important. But but it was in that couples therapy where John started to admit that maybe he had his own problem. And it wasn't an addiction. He felt like he could stop it, but he felt like he had a lot of previous traumas. You know, he had a failed marriage before me, he had a lot of failed relationships before me, and you know, he had a tough upbringing with his family. He's got addiction in his family. Um he was raised in a tough emotional world. And he decided, you know what, I need to get my own help. And so he went to individual therapy for a little while without admitting that there was any addiction, but just going to individual therapy. And so I went a little hands-off and thought, okay, I'm gonna give this some time, he's gonna deal with some of his emotional traumas, and maybe he'll, you know, be recommitted to a new life after.
SPEAKER_02And this was after the second.
SPEAKER_00This is after the second, yeah. When I yep.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and so that went on for so many months, and um and and all the all the while I'm going back and forth with my gut, right? He's being good, he's not being good, like periods of all is good, periods of it's not so good. Um and finally one day, I don't even know how long he did the individual therapy, but I want to say it lasted like under a year of maybe twice a month or once a month seeing this guy. And nothing he ever shared with me. He was very like, it's all fine, don't worry about it, kind of thing. And I wanted to respect his privacy and space on that because I think a lot of his issues came up prior to meeting me. And sure. So um I don't remember. I'm trying to remember how I I didn't myself get any other therapy or work on myself at all until after the last discovery prior to his um falling into the battle. Gotcha. And that um unleashed a whole can of worms for me that I should have done a long time before.
SPEAKER_02Was that the big one? The third one was kind of like the final. How would you describe that?
SPEAKER_00Third one was like the final. So um I had we had come really close to a final um for his 50th birthday about four years ago. We were um planning a trip to Jamaica, and I had known for like 10 months prior to this trip that like I just need to leave him. I just need to leave him. It's not getting better. I didn't trust my gut. Our relationship was in the dumps, like we were roommates, it was awful. And for like 10 or 11 months, you know, we were leading into this. I was like, I just need to tell him, like, I'm done. I just need to go. And my kids are just gonna have to figure it out. Like, I was really done. And um, I was a little scared because being married and and like the financial
Couples Therapy And The Addiction Question
SPEAKER_00part of separating was gonna get a little messy with us. And um I I feared that like I would lose all that I gained when my first husband died in terms of like life insurance and profit stuff. And so I was like, I have to be really gentle about this and careful about it because I don't want to lose everything, but I need to leave him. And um, so I confronted him right before Jamaica and I said, Look, I don't have the proof, but I know you're cheating on me. Like I know stuff's going on, and I'm not gonna find the proof, and I've just settled with that and we're done. I don't want to do this anymore. And somehow or another, he convinced me to go to Jamaica with him. All was fine, blah, blah, blah, blah. And really, it sort of reignited a new spark in Jamaica. We had a great trip, everything was wonderful, and I came home, just dropped the topic, you know. And it was that year that I had the final, that year when I found again the proof again. And it was in more in the form of like the online stuff, more like um pornography on. Computer, and then I was able to get into certain accounts, um, like bank accounts that I saw him taking money out of. Then I had no idea how much money he was spending on all of this until that just got and so that was when I was like, okay, this is not just your money, this is my money too. You are not gonna spend this much money on this, and I'm gonna make it no, I was done when I found the money. I was like, okay, enough is enough already, right? And I so that was the big, the big one that ended everything. And that was the first time he said, I have a problem. He finally that was the first time, yep. And that was the first time I decided I needed my own therapy because now by now I had been, well, first of all, I never got therapy when I lost my first husband. I just thought, I'm fine, I don't need it, I can deal. And um, I should have addressed issues then. I was like the perfect victim for this kind of thing because I had so many like attachment issues, and I had like um, you know, I had my own obviously emotions that hadn't been dealt with to be able to enter into a new healthy relationship. So at that point, I started my own therapy, and that's when I discovered um you know how important it is, really.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00You have to sort of just accept that, you know, there a lot of people I still think hold like a stigma against doing that stuff, and you know, think everyone, you know, you're tough enough to deal on your own. And yeah, I did that for so long.
SPEAKER_02And um well, there's just not many other areas in life where we take that approach. I mean, it seems like we're sports, we get coaches, you know, it's like we get sick, we go to a doctor, we get whatever. But it comes to mental and emotional health, especially around addiction.
SPEAKER_00It's like there's shame.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there is shame around it, you know, and uh especially sex addiction. I'm grateful that that's starting to lift a little bit more. But even, you know, if you've got a problem with alcohol or drugs, it's it's feels like that's on a lesser degree of shame than you know, the the sex stuff and the process addictions.
SPEAKER_00And totally everybody accepts all that much.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I was like, oh, he's an alcoholic or she's an alcoholic. You know, it's not that I'm not making light of it at all, don't get me wrong, but you know, it keeps people in hiding because they don't feel like, hey, I can't talk about this stuff because you know, in society it's so it can be so taboo. Um, but there's men and women out there really struggling that don't know where to turn, you know, and um you know, gratefully you guys were able to go get help. And I do think part of your your story um that I I really respect and appreciate is your willingness to also do work, like go and do your own work and go get a CSAT and go do some of those things because I've said on here before, you know, my wife did something like that as well. And it it's such an incredible gift, especially when it feels like that you wouldn't have to do that, right? It's like you like and I understand it makes more sense to me for the especially the the women, the betrayed partners who are like, No, you go get help, go where you've done this to me. That that was what makes sense to me.
SPEAKER_00Well, that was my initial approach, you know. When I said we're done, like I'm not the one with the problem. You even when he checked in at Valiant and they called me, I was very like, Well, I'm not the one with the problem, he is. I don't, you know, I'm not the one that needs he's got a problem. Like, right, nothing wrong with me. I don't know if I even believed myself saying it. Nothing wrong with me, but right, but I was very still like, This is his problem, he needs to fix himself, so you know, and at that point I was leaving John. I didn't care what happened to him at that point.
SPEAKER_02I was yeah, can we talk about that just for a second? Because you finally got to your breaking point and you were you were donezo, you were like, I'm out.
SPEAKER_00I was done. The the first meeting I went to with the the wives um at Valiant, and they were all like staying and working with her. I was like, Oh no, this is not a group for me. Like, I need a group of women who are leaving because yeah, to me, it was gonna be hard to leave. I was so emotionally attached and so dependent that I was like, I need help here at leaving. I need I need reassurance that I'll be okay as an independent person on my own again. Yeah, because that was what feared I was what I was most afraid of. It was too easy to just stay with him. But I was like, no, I need to go.
SPEAKER_02You need a support group of women saying you're gonna be okay after you leave them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. When I got there, I was or when I went to this meeting, I was like, hold up. Because there were women there that were really, really, really supportive of their significant others, and some of which were not working the program. And I
The Breaking Point: Money And Proof
SPEAKER_00was like, You will not catch me in that position.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00There's no chance I'm going down that road. Right. Like I knew that I didn't believe for a second that John would finish this. I felt like he was this was another one of his, it was a move to kind of try to convince me again. And as soon as I was convinced, he was gonna just leave. You know, like I didn't believe for a second he would complete 30 days, let alone 90. Right in this program.
SPEAKER_02He took it serious.
SPEAKER_00I mean I shocked me. I think he shocked the world taking it serious. And it's the only reason I'm here. Like, I I literally did not think for a second. Well, first of all, with you know, the person that referred this program to us is actually um my brother-in-law, my oldest sister's husband, um, had a roommate in college that was a sex addict. And he came to me and he's like, Lee, John is a good man, he has a problem. And I was like, No, no, you don't understand. He's an asshole and he's a narcissist, and I'm not doing this. And he was like, trust me. And I'm like, no. Well, so I mean, I thought the worst, right, you know, and I was like, I'm out of here. And um, and then, you know, I that I it was really important to me to find a CSAT therapist because I thought if I'm ever gonna get through this, I need to learn about this and understand. Because I had a lot of um, I blamed myself, I had no self-esteem anymore. I had, you know, I just thought I I felt worthless and foolish. And so I knew I needed someone to help like bring me back to reality.
SPEAKER_02So, was your mindset is what I'm hearing you say, and please correct me, is okay, he's gonna go off the valiant. God bless you, go do your thing. I'm gonna like I'm leaving you, but I'm also I know I've been wounded and I've got some stuff to deal with. So I'm gonna go to CSAT, not to try to understand you better, not to try to repair our marriage, not to try to whatever. You go do your work. I'm gonna go over here and try to heal from what I've just been through and experience. Is that correct? Because that's kind of the mindset at the time.
SPEAKER_00Yes, because I knew I wanted to move on. Like it, I knew that I wanted to be married. I knew that I like to share my life with another person. Um, I had a really good relationship with my first husband. We had a beautiful marriage, he was a wonderful person. I really felt we were deeply in love and had a good relationship. And I knew that that was where I was happy and I wanted that again. And I knew that if I didn't get this help I needed and I didn't get through this with my dignity intact, that I wouldn't find that again.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I knew, you know, I knew I would need to heal myself before I could enter into another relationship. Otherwise, I was gonna continue down the path of my parents and my family and have broken relationship, broken relationship after broken relationship.
SPEAKER_02So you had an almost like an anger that was like you were you're angry for passionate to like break the cycle to get healing because I'm not doing this anymore. This just stops here, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02I I love that. And I think I think there's and I'd love to hear your thoughts on the letting go. Because I think no matter if you plan on staying or plan on leaving, what I've seen is that a healthy letting go for at least a season where it's like, you know what? I'm not gonna try to manage your recovery. I'm not gonna, you know, I care about you, but like you're in the hands of experts now. You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna let go and I'm gonna, you know, at least in our story, I'll just speak for me. I mean, Jamie was very much so like, hey, I gotta work on me. I don't know if we're gonna be together or not, but you go do you, I'm gonna work on me for a little bit. And what I've seen is that you know, I'm obviously not a therapist, what I've seen is that man, that is a really important part of the process, is a healthy letting go, especially in that first 30, 45 days. You were letting go because you were done. But I think it's important to do that, even if you're if you're considering that maybe there's still a future, like, hey, we need to take a minute here and work on ourselves. You know, what what was that like for you from a setting a boundary, from you know, Danine calls it loving leverage, you know, like hey, you know, you know you really have to just, you know, for me, I I turned back into a face.
SPEAKER_00You know, I felt like you really have to let go, like you said, of whatever the outcome might be. Either he's gonna change and he'll come back a better person. And
Choosing Personal Therapy
SPEAKER_00good for him, I I might not like that person, I might not want to be with that person, or he's never gonna change.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00But I really have to be okay, like okay with whatever does happen and just stay focused on me, really, at that time. I wanted to stay focused on whatever the outcome was for me. If if I'm gonna be alone and and moving in with up moving on without him, I wanted to have faith in that that was gonna be okay and that I was still gonna have a good, happy ending to this. I was still gonna be a good person, a happy person, and live the life that I want to live. And I needed to know that, you know, whatever happened to him, that he was gonna work it out. But I but my focus was not really on him, to be honest. My focus was like, how am I gonna get through this? At that point, I was still very angry at him, still very like, I need to worry about myself now. The damage has been done, I need to bring myself back to reality and be who I am meant to be. Um, and then later we talk more about him and I versus I.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02But I was very even get there.
SPEAKER_00Like if that evening, if we even get there, because in the beginning I was very convinced I'm not staying.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00But I I wasn't, I didn't tell him that yet because I I was afraid of like I really thought I needed to do it gently because I was afraid of where I would stand financially, to be honest with you.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00Um, if we separated. I was afraid that I would be the one getting like the raw end of the stick, to be fair.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm glad you said that too, because I think there's probably a lot of people listening that really can relate to that. Like that's a reality for for many people is like, hey, there's a lot of practical and logistical things that bring up a lot of fear. It's not as easy sometimes as saying you hurt me and I'm out. Like there's a other things that you're thinking of that also can be a motivation in how you show up and the decisions you make.
SPEAKER_00You know, some women I've learned that that I've met along the way really didn't have an option to think about moving forward alone. You know, whether they didn't have the financial means, they didn't have a job or an education or, you know, and they have children at the home, where are you gonna go? You know, you can't you couldn't separate um because of financial reasons. You couldn't create a space. And, you know, if your partner's gone for 90 days and you think all is well, well, there's still a lot that happens after that 90 days. And you know, for us, we had I had the not everyone gets this. I was very fortunate I had the luxury of being able to actually leave and live in a different place um and stay separated for a while. I mean, we were separated for probably a year before we started to mend things, and that space and that time was everything for me. And yeah, I realized not everyone can do that, but um, it was really helpful to create space and you know, maybe in the same home you can still do that, but it's really hard, I think, to do that.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I think that's a big part of what I've heard the therapists and even Michael Denine say about treatment is a big part of it's just separation. I mean, separation from your drug of choice and from your addiction and being in a safe place. And part of it is just physically being removed from where you're at, so that you're in a place where you're not gonna use or you know, I think that's a that's a huge part of it. And the only reason why I chuckled earlier when you said that, because like man, 90 days, I felt like I'm barely to the starting line. I mean, it sounds like a long time when you're going in. I mean, I know a lot of guys fight it, right? Well, I'm only gonna do 50, I'll do 30, or maybe I'll do six, and we laugh because we're like, man, we've a lot of us have 40 years of of you know addictive behavior that we're hoping to solve overnight. It's like 90 days, just barely get your brain back online to start thinking sane again, you know.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's really con you get really confident at 90 days in your in your program. But on 91, when you're back in your life, yeah, you're like, oh crap, I have to like apply all this to this now, and this this is very raw. Like that's where it all went down. That's right.
SPEAKER_02That's right. Well, and that's why our our alumni program is so important, and and John is very active and engaged in that community because man, we have the tools now, but we gotta we gotta use them every day, you know, and that's that's where the real work starts to happen is is you know, after you leave. So now I'm curious, how did this story start to turn in this direction? And I also want to just throw a disclaimer out. We're very clear
Letting Go And Setting Boundaries
SPEAKER_02at Valiant that we're we're about bringing families back together. That's what we're about. We want that. And at the same time, that's not always possible. And so sometimes one of the you know, the partners are not willing to do the work, or there's too much betrayal or trauma, too much hurt, and moving on is the right thing. And so I don't want anyone to hear like we're prescribing this is what you have to do, especially if someone's in some sort of abusive relationship of some sort. But we also want to say there is absolutely hope for people who have a desire to get healthy and to be in a healthy relationship, and we want to bring families back together. And so I just wanted to pause and say, although we're celebrating, and I'm celebrating, you know, the work that you and John have done and come back together, also that's not always the end goal for everyone. And I and I know I've heard you say it already, they say it in the program like regardless of whether you stay together or you go up, you're gonna be okay. You're gonna if you'll do the work, you're gonna you're gonna be okay, and there's something good for you that's coming. But in your story, how did you get how did things start coming up together?
SPEAKER_00I have to say, first of all, I really love my therapist. She's amazing. And if I had known there were people like her in this world, I would have done this a long time ago. But she, I was, I I trusted in her a lot. And the first time I said to her, like, gosh, do you think I should just leave? Like, this is a good idea, right? I should leave. And I really expected her to be like, I think you're gonna be okay, you know. She turned around and said to me, you know, I'm not in the business of breaking up families. You know, I my job here is to help you make this work. And I thought, well, okay. And I was and I knew that was kind of Valiant's theme too. And I thought, well, this is kind of a biased opinion, like you're trying to fix things, but you're not living in my shoes. Like, so I thought, okay, all that's biased. Like, great, you want to fix the relationship, but I don't want to get hurt again, you know. And um, and so it was a really hard thing for me to buy in because I felt like it was a biased opinion, you know what I mean? Like I felt like that idea of we're here making families together, keep or helping families stay together and helping, you know, move forward. I to me, I was like, that's a one-sided bias, you know.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00So it took me a little while to kind of wrap my head around that. But I think what happened is I read a lot of books, not written by my therapist, right? Some recommended by some recommended by others, but I read a lot about this particular topic. Um uh sex addiction, um, spouses, um, what it does to the spouse and the family, betrayals, lies, deceit, you know, overcoming all of that, confronting all of that, disclosures, you know, all the steps of the program. And I read all these books and I I did the worksheets in them. Like I, if there was a page that said, write down your thoughts on this, I did it.
SPEAKER_01Really?
SPEAKER_00If there was a page, yes, that said, you know, for the next so many days, do XYZ, I did it. Because I really wanted to genuinely like unpack every emotion and every feeling and every reason for leaving or staying the best that I could, because I knew that would make me feel sound in my decision and I wouldn't have any regrets. Right. I started to feel like, what if I leave and he does change and he's the perfect person for me? Because other than that one thing, he really, I truly believed he was. So I thought, what if I leave and he changes and I missed out on that, and somebody else gets to enjoy him for the rest of their lives? And I was so worried about that.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_00But I also I also didn't want to stay and have it happen again and go, what if I would have just left? So I really wanted to dive into every possible scenario, every emotion that would trigger, and how I was gonna deal along the way of all of it. And that's when I started to go, you know what? By then, you know, 60, 70, 80 days had passed and he was still there. And so I was starting to go, he's really gonna do this.
SPEAKER_02Like so, were you guys not talking at all during that time when he was at Valiant?
SPEAKER_00The first like 30 days, I would say we weren't talking.
SPEAKER_02Gotcha.
SPEAKER_00Um, my first visit out there to meet with the spouses. I like I specifically said I don't want him to know I'm there. I didn't want him to even see my location on a device, or like I really wanted him to think I was gone.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00And I and I did, I left, so he was coming home from rehab in March, and I was leaving in March for um, you know what? Oh, I forgot. There, that's kind of a major thing, too.
Separation, Space, And Time
SPEAKER_00Well, I I accepted a contract to take a job out of state, but prior to that job, I went on a women's yoga retreat to Bali, and that was um not a single day did I spend with my therapist while I was there. I spent every day diving into you know the meditations and the yoga and the and the um being present and being by myself. I actually cried on the airplane, flying so far away to someplace I've never been alone was such a massive feat for me. And I was so afraid. And I cried on my way out. And on my way home from that, I walked through the airport by myself, the strong, independent person, like feeling so good about life, like thinking my life has changed. So so those were major turning points for me. People are writing down booking fights to Bali, they're listening to this and they're on the price line, getting Bali like I knew when I was there at the end of that retreat, and all of the like just settling into my own thoughts in my own world and my own space, as you know, I knew then that I was gonna try to let him kind of speak his piece and give him a shot. I knew I wasn't going to go back to our house and living together the way we were, but I knew that I was gonna hear him out. I knew that I was going to listen to his disclosure, I knew that I was going to continue my own therapies in in even meditation practices, but also, you know, getting through my own response to his disclosure.
SPEAKER_02Right. You were at least gonna work the process to get through to like Yes.
SPEAKER_00So I was gonna process all of this. Yes. I thought, okay, I'm gonna accept what he has done, I'm gonna process all of the he has to say about it. Right. And I'm going to continue to be separate. I lived in a different place than him, but we stayed in touch and um and I even decided a few months after that, I think it was maybe around May, that I let him come and visit me for a weekend. And that was changed that we yeah, spent time together after he left Valiant.
SPEAKER_02And how long after Valiant was that?
SPEAKER_00That was I think like probably two or three months after.
SPEAKER_02And this is why I'm bringing it up because I think there's a lot of a lot of us guys will go into treatment and 30, 45, 60, 90 days later, they're like, hey, I'm all better. I'm ready to come home. I'm ready, like, you know, in a lot of ways, we have made a lot. I mean, it's boot camp. We've we've done a lot of work. So I'm not I'm not trying to like You know, it's it's you're not all better, but you have changed. I mean, there's a lot.
SPEAKER_00But you get confident.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. You have good ones. And you think go ahead.
SPEAKER_00Well, John always says to me, you know, he's confident in his um in his accountabilities, you know, and in his daily routines and in the boundaries that we still live with to this day. Like he's confident in all these things, but he's also he always says this, we don't have a crystal ball. Like he's never gonna make a promise that he doesn't know he can keep. You know, to say to me, I promise you I'll never do it again. I'm I love, you know, all of those things are like, well, we don't have a crystal ball. We don't know what's gonna happen in the future. But I know that this day I'm gonna do this to make sure it doesn't happen today. Tomorrow I'm gonna do it to make sure it doesn't happen tomorrow. And I I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah. I I love it.
SPEAKER_02It's so good. Well, and I just I love the fact that in your story there wasn't this immediate, hey, I did 90 and I'm coming home. And it was like, it takes time, and and I think I think people need to hear that. Like it takes time for sometimes longer than others, you know. Sometimes you don't go home right after 90. Sometimes it takes a lot longer. I mean, it's like, but I was just telling a guy that's in the program that this week, I was like, because he he wants things to go faster, you know, with with his spouse, which you know, understandably, but I was like, man, just keep showing up, keep respecting the boundaries, keep making your partner feel safe, like day in, day out. Like, don't put it on a clock or a timeline or pressure or anything like that. Most of the time it ends up going faster than what you think it could. Once the person starts feeling safe and they pick the same intuition that told you things were off is the intuition that said, Hey, I think I think he's taking this serious. I think there's something different here, you know. So talk about well, go ahead with that thought. I have something to do. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_00I was just gonna say that a therapist said to me early on that trust is behavior over time. And so I didn't trust until some time had passed and his behaviors proved that he could
Trust As Behavior Over Time
SPEAKER_00be trusted, right? Yeah, so trust is behavior over time that stuck with me. And every time I start to have like a red flag, like, well, what's going on with this? Or what's that? You know, we go back to that. Okay, trust is behavior over time. And if there's a hiccup, there's a hiccup in your trust for a second, it's gonna take even more time to go back, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So well, and what one thing I know about John, because him and I are friends, and we've been in a lot of groups and meetings together now, is that he takes that very seriously to this day every day. You mentioned boundaries. I know there's things that he still does that you know, candidly, a lot of guys get a little funny about some of those things, like, oh, I don't want to have to keep doing this, whatever. He's glad to continue to be accountable and whatever. He's not, and and if you know John, he's a he's a man's man. I mean, there's no getting around it, but he still does the things I've seen him doing the things every day to say, hey, I'm gonna continue to build trust every day, do the simple things, you know. Um, and I draw encouragement off that because there's not really a time where I view it as, hey, I'm fixed, all trust is built, everything's better now, we can go back to the way things were. That that's not a reality anymore. That's not our reality. And it doesn't, and Jill said this, uh, one of the therapists that it'll never be the same, but it can be better. So this idea of going back to the way it was is ridiculous. Nobody wants that anyway.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02It's always going to be different, but it can be better.
SPEAKER_00And and today, the way you live today is just your new normal. It is what it is. And if your new normal makes your spouse feel safe and secure and loved and trusted, and it goes both ways, then great.
SPEAKER_02I had a guy tell me a friend of mine who's not in recovery, say, I just don't know how you do it. I I couldn't, I couldn't, you know, share my location with my wife. I couldn't do all that kind of stuff. I just don't know how like you live that way, and it's like I'm and I'm looking at him like, What I don't see it that way at all. I I love her and I want to build back like this. It's it's actually a joy and an honor that that we're in this partnership and in this relationship, and it it means you know, for me to do that kind of stuff right now feels like that's not a reality is if you have nothing to hide, then who cares if they can see your point? That's a great point.
SPEAKER_00If you're not if you have nothing to hide, then yeah, I I know when you're at a you know, who cares?
SPEAKER_02Well, I know because I've talked to John about this too, if there is something that happens where, and it won't even be a deceit, but it'll be a small like change in plans or change in schedule, whatever, something rises up in us too, like, oh, we gotta like if I'm going to one coffee shop and it changes to another coffee shop and I don't tell Jamie, I feel weird because I'm like, I don't like there to be anything between us that feels like even if it's you know innocent, you know, small things, you just get to where you just appreciate the connection of honesty, especially if you've been living in deceit for a long time.
SPEAKER_00Once that's so I'll tell you if I yeah, uh John. So we have a rule now today that we still live by that John's not allowed to have cash. Yeah, because if he has cash in his pocket, you never know.
SPEAKER_02That's actually what I was referring to, but I didn't want to tell your story for you. I knew I knew about that rule and I love it.
SPEAKER_00No, it's okay. He's not allowed to have cash. Well, um, you know, if he's going golfing with guys one day and he's like, Oh, I owe so-and-so ten bucks or whatever it is, okay, fine. Like, or I need to buy this for five dollars, whatever. Okay, fine. So, you know, he I'll give him 20 bucks and he'll he'll send me back, you know, $15.99, whatever it is, like, and he'll give me a receipt.
SPEAKER_01You know, I know.
SPEAKER_00Okay. But uh one time, you know, it gets weird because like his parents, you know, he he goes home to his mom's house or something, and you know, his mom bless her heart just wants to hand him a hundred dollar bill, like, here you go, honey. You know, I love you. Go, don't spend
Accountability Without Control
SPEAKER_00it one place, buy some beers for the boys, whatever. You know, like great, it's what all moms do. But he has to start saying to her mom, you can't give me cash. And her initial reaction is like, What well that's ridiculous, you know, and and you know, it can be viewed really as like I'm controlling him. But really, this is something that he's offered to me as a way to make me feel more comfortable. Like, hey, see how about you take control of this, don't give it to me, don't allow me to have any cash, you'll feel comfortable, I don't need it. It's fine, you know, right? And and that works for us. Um, it's not a matter of me controlling him, but it's just a matter of him holding himself accountable and in a way using me to help him do that.
SPEAKER_02And so that's what we're committing to do. This is not you, this is not you controlling us. This is us saying this is like our making feel safe, we are gonna commit to this.
SPEAKER_00Right.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02So a lot of people's totally different concept.
SPEAKER_00You know, and it's not, it's like it's every little thing that that you know you have to do when you have this kind of addiction. It's it's the cash, it's even just spending on a credit card, you know, the computer use. To this day, John keeps um, you know, controls on his um devices, like parental controls on the buttons I don't manage. Um because I will drive myself crazy checking sites, checking sites. You know, I used to do it, you know, prior to our, you know, the therapy and the work. I used to, you know, he's sleeping, grab his phone and go through it. Or I used to open his laptop because I know it would connect and I would read the text, and I'm so I knew he was doing things, or I would see his location. The iCloud connects the two. And I would sit at home with coffee and just follow that computer and follow the messages and be like, ah, like I know.
SPEAKER_02Private investigator mode at all times.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that's terrible. I mean, Nick, you make yourself crazy stalking your partner. And so I just knew that I couldn't do that. We had to agree on somebody that we could give this responsibility to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and guess what? My brother-in-law that referred us to Valiant does it.
SPEAKER_01Oh, nice.
SPEAKER_00He's got the ultimate control on John's phone. And every time something comes up, you know, that he searches something, he gets blocked or something. Sometimes it's random, like he'll try to get onto the REI website and it goes, no, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That happens to me too.
SPEAKER_00Dave and go, Hey, uh, can you let me get onto REI? So um But yeah, it's it's it's funny because I could drive myself crazy doing that. And but I really love Dave. I know Dave loves me and I trust him completely. And so it's a really good uh you know um solution for us.
SPEAKER_02Good accountability. Well, and I I've heard therapists say that's it's often better to not have your spouse be your accountability partner. It's like if you can help it, you know, obviously there's a lot of people.
SPEAKER_00If you can help it, yeah, it's too much on us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I think that's good. Uh I want to ask you about before I I let you go, this has been awesome. And I'm so I'm so grateful you've been willing to share. I want to ask you about life now, what life is like just with you and John. And you know, we've talked a little bit about the accountability, but can I go backwards just for a minute? Because you mentioned disclosure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Can we talk? So that's a scary thing for a lot of people. You guys worked the disclosure process. Could you just kind of briefly share just like what was that like for you for someone listening? It's like, man, I think I need to go through disclosure, but I'm scared. Like, what was your experience?
SPEAKER_00It's heavy. Um, you know, if you do the work well with the right people, though, um, you can sort of spare yourself the things you don't want to know, right? Um, there are things I definitely wanted to know, but there were details that I hoped he didn't share. And so we did a lot of separate work on like what I want needed and wanted to know versus what he needed and wanted to share, um, and how that was gonna kind of collide in person. Um it's it's heavy. It weighed on me for months and months leading up to it. Um, I was afraid of hearing things I didn't already know. I was hopeful that I already knew everything and it couldn't get worse, but I was really scared that it could get a lot worse. Um and so there's a lot of emotion behind, you know, an impending disclosure. But the day we did it um was very freeing. It was like a weight off my shoulders. Um, because there was so much time spent in the process of it, you know. I mean, he spent all it was gosh, let's see, he was there for 30, 90 days and then we did this. I mean, it was probably a good six months or a year in the making. I can't remember. It was a long time. He didn't do it before he left Valiant, um, which I think is normally the goal. But we had some hiccup. We had changed he or he had changed a therapist here and there, whatever. And yeah, um, so it didn't happen the way that the planned um program had it happen. It happened afterwards while we were both um still separated, but in our hometowns, you know. And and we did it in his new therapist's office. Um, and I really liked
Why Spouse Isn’t The Sober Coach
SPEAKER_00the new therapist. I met him ahead of time too, and um I I felt connected to him. He was a good guy, he was a local guy, and he too was a widow. I felt like he understood me um John. Um and anyway, uh I was allowed um to have some time before I responded, you know, to go home and collect my own thoughts and write my response. And um got to kind of read that to him with a therapist in the room to make sure that I could get it through it and we could get through it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And um and it was heavy, it was really hard. It was a lot of tears shed on both sides. Um, it'll ruin you for a day or two, you know.
SPEAKER_02So we most there's a process that's a it's uh you've got professionals walking you through. You know, don't go it alone, don't try to manage it, you know.
SPEAKER_00Like right. And I did that in the beginning, like, you know, I was getting mad at him like and trying to manipulate it. You better tell, I better not find out something I don't know with some stranger. You better tell me right now what's happening.
SPEAKER_01Right, right.
SPEAKER_00I remember when he left the first day he left for Valiant. I was like, if I find out more while you're gone, you better just release it right now. You know, I don't want to find out.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00And he looked at me and he just goes, Lee, you already know. Yeah, and he never told me anything, but I told him what my gut was saying. And that to me was he sort of validated that my gut was not right, and I thought, okay, you jerk, you can leave now.
SPEAKER_02Did you feel any kind of just because you just said it, did you feel any kind of what's the word? Is it relief? I don't know. Like when you finally were like, hey, I'm not crazy.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Oh, it's so validating, like, and just being able to tell him how it really made me feel, and like that I was at the lowest of all lows, and it was because of his behaviors, it was because of him, it was his betrayals and his lies and his deceit. They're so like deeply painful. And being able to just voice that without you know, a blank stare or manipulation or a gaslighting, and him just accepting that responsibility and accountability, yeah, is so it's a huge weight off my shoulders.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then and then to like start over and to build the bricks
Facing Disclosure Safely
SPEAKER_00one at a time again in a new life, um it kind of gives you that clean slate that you're always searching for, but you never really get, even with the I'm sorry, I'll never do it again, you know. You don't really get a clean slate without doing that work.
SPEAKER_02It's true. Because and then the gift of it, at least for on the addict side, is first of all, they help you write it because you you don't realize how much you try to explain yourself. And they help you like not do a lot of that stuff, like to really just say what it is, not try to make excuse, like just but man, when when you finally have that confession and that disclosure, and then someone still chooses you, like to like to be fully seen, fully known, uh you know all of my bullshit, there is nothing hidden, and you still whether you stay together or not, you still see me as a human and you still have a love for me and whatever. I can't tell you for me how much that changed my life. Because it was the first time I realized because I was so was bought the lie that if people really knew me, they wouldn't love me. And then when that lie went away, it was so so freeing, you know. But it is heavy, and sometimes people do hear things that years and years of betrayal, and it's just too much to overcome, like just too much there. Um, yeah, but man, what a what a gift, healthy disclosure process is for both both people to hit that. I think you said maybe a reset or like a blank, like slate or something like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, a clean start. And and I I you're saying that, and I'm seeing that and hearing that in John too. You know, he's he's been seen and he's been heard, and he's admitted like so many awful like you know, faults that he's had and things that he's done, and yet I'm still here, and I think that means the world to him. And I don't think any other, you know, relationship in his life has somebody validated that for him and stayed. You know, everybody just left him every time. And so I think he needed that as much as anybody, you know, to heal himself and to feel like he deserved to be loved, you know.
SPEAKER_02So good. So, what's life like now today? What's life in recovery look like for you guys? Everything's perfect and no frights, no arguments, no like just never euphoric.
SPEAKER_01We have the perfect marriage.
SPEAKER_00We're all jealous. Um, John is not OCD at all, don't worry.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, great.
SPEAKER_00It's funny because our life is very different. Um he said to me one day that even a therapist told him in at Valiant, you know, sometimes you have to just blow up your life. Sometimes you have to just blow everything up to make it better. And so, you know, we we John retired. He left the job that he's been in for 27 years. Um, we moved to Montana. We'd no longer live in Southern California. We sold that house, bought a new house here. Our kids have basically been kicked out of the house too because we sold it. So um, they're adults, you know, the girls are 21 and 23, almost 22 and 24. Wow. And so they live on their own independently now. So John and I are empty nesters, he's retired, we live in another state. Life is very different. Yeah, um, but it's great, you know. I think it made it this path gave way for a better life for us. You know, a lot of the relationships in our past that caused the trauma and that hurt us and that sometimes still do is sort of um distanced now and better managed with distance. Um you know, he doesn't have to me, I feel safer. He doesn't have the same like access to the things that he used to have living down there, with or without all of our, you know, boundaries and you know, right controls, all these silly things, you know, with or without all of those things. Um he's there's still a distance from the world we used to live in where this behavior was, you know, out of control. And and being here and starting a new life and meeting new friends and me having a new job, and it's really um we're having a great time. I feel a little bit like we are newlyweds again with no children because we're free to like build our own schedule, do what we want to do. We spend a lot of time together, and um, you know, we're financially better off right now. We are um so much more communicative. I know in a second I could look at John and go, okay, something bothered me. We need to talk. And he would drop everything right now on the couch, like and we talk. And you know, in the past, if I did that to him, he'd go, Oh boy, here we go. And here we go again. And he would, you know, walk away. And it's not like that anymore. So he really is different. He's you know, he still has this exterior, he's the man's man, right? He's still this but inside he's he is so much more open with me than he's ever been, and it just makes for such a better, you know, partner in life. And yeah, you know, does he drive me crazy sometimes still? Of course, he's John. That's what makes him makes a lot of noises, you know. He his Tourette's really kicks in sometimes. No, but but it is all part of his charm. It is.
SPEAKER_02He he has become a dear friend of mine, and you know, both of you. I mean, just the work you've done.
Rebuilding On A Clean Slate
SPEAKER_02You guys came and visited where we live in Nashville not too long ago, and we had dinner, and it just was like being with old friends. I mean, it's part of this shared experience, you know, and it's well Jamie and I are so grateful to have friends who are on this journey together, and it's so imperfect and it's clunky and all those things, but man, yeah, it is better and it's honest. And I've I've found John to be a very generous and loving and and gracious human. I'm I'm glad that we're friends. And then now meeting you, and and honestly, our our wives are the heroes of of these stories, and that's not just that's not talk. It really is. I mean, yeah, we had to go and and do the work too, but man, there's no way we're where we are today without without our wives. And so, final word, anything else you want to share, or if you're talking to women that are listening, partners that are listening right now, what what hope would you share? What final word do you have?
SPEAKER_00Um, gosh. Um that's hard. There's so many thoughts still come to my mind for that. Um to your point, for really quick, I don't want to say that I am so grateful for John still, too, to this day. I mean, we've been through a lot, and in a lot of ways, I feel like his addiction really dragged me through the mud in so many ways and so many times. But today, I'm so grateful for him because our relationship truly is better on the other side. And he could have very easily gone, you know what? I needed that, and I and I have this issue, and I am um, you know, grateful for the help I got, but I don't want to be married, or this isn't the one for me, or or heck, I don't care. I want to watch porn every so often, so I'm out of here, you know. I mean, he's an independent guy, he makes his own money, he's lived single for a long time, and I think he was perfectly content being that way, to be honest. And so I feel like he could have walked away from us too. And the fact that he didn't and he chose to save our marriage as well is huge to me and speaks volumes. He could have walked away also and he didn't. Um, I think what I would tell women who are in it right now is um, you know. One, trust your gut always. Your gut will never lie to you. Um get to the bottom of it when it's there. Um don't be afraid to voice when it's there telling you something. Um, always oh you know, I want to talk about boundaries for a second. I I didn't know what a boundary meant when I started this. I hadn't been through therapy in my life where I even knew that term. Um, you know, I was an athlete growing up, and so a boundary to me was like the ball has to stay within these lines. Like what the boundary for your life, I had no idea. And so learning what that means and implementing that has changed my life. And I think for any wife out there that's dealing with something like this, if you have not become a pro at creating a boundary for yourself, it's time to do that. And not just your relationship with your spouse, but in life with everybody. Uh, you know, I have boundaries now with um a lot of relationships in my life that have made me
Life Now: New State, New Rhythms
SPEAKER_00a better person, that have made me more sound, less distressed, um, more present when I need to be with the people that matter the most in my life. And it's so important to, you know, I feel like I love more and I can have more to give when I have boundaries. The relationships in my life that need the boundaries. And so I think, you know, practicing um being grateful for what you have, learning your boundaries, trusting your gut, so important.
SPEAKER_02Man, that was so incredible. I just can't hardly fathom the courage it takes to be able to go back and to reflect, reminisce, and tell that story. I mean, it brings up, I'm sure it brings up a lot of pain, a lot of hurt, but man, what courage uh for Lee to be able to share that. Um, just so proud of those two and so grateful that we're friends and they're part of our alumni program now, and just able to um just kind of pay it forward to share the hope that they have. And as you heard her say, it's not perfect, it's not easy. But man, um we just had dinner together. They came and visited Nashville a couple months ago, and just seeing them together and the work they've done is so encouraging, just to even to me and my journey. Um, just a reminder, um would love for you to grab that free resource on Loving Leverage. It's just a wife's guide to boundaries, clarity, and hope. You get that at Valiant Living.com slash episode 55. And um just so so thankful. Just again, Lee, thank you for your courage to share that story, and we really hope it was meaningful and helpful for you and your journey as well. All right, friends, until next time, thanks for listening to the Valiant Living Podcast.
