Valiant Living Podcast

Why So Many Church Leaders Collapse with Gary Katz

• Valiant Living • Episode 54

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Ever felt the pressure to be “on” every waking minute? We sat down with Rabbi and therapist Gary Katz to unpack the quiet cost of spiritual leadership: how constant likability, role-based identity, and unspoken expectations can turn faith into performance and push leaders toward secrecy. Gary opens up about his own crash into sex and love addiction, the spiral into substances, and the slow rebuild that followed—rooted in a radical idea: spiritual progress beats spiritual perfection.

Across our conversation, we map the terrain of process addictions and intimacy disorder in clear terms. If porn becomes a numbing loop, removing porn alone won’t solve the craving to shut down; the brain will find another off-switch. If affairs or attention are really about validation, new “respectable” behaviors can still feed the same hunger. Gary shows how the work is identifying your loop and building healthier ways to meet core needs without hiding. We also explore a common leadership blind spot: many of us can lead or follow, yet struggle to stand eye-to-eye as peers. That’s where healing happens—phone calls, coffee, shared truth without a stage.

We talk about the trap of curated vulnerability, the fatigue of 24/7 role performance, and the difference between toxic shame and the healthy kind that guides better choices. For leaders afraid of disqualification, Gary offers a measured path: hit pause on big decisions, anchor in real support, and relearn how to be a person before a title. Integrity isn’t spotless; it’s aligned. If you’ve been living split—polished outwardly, isolated inwardly—this conversation points to a way back to wholeness, connection, and a more honest faith.

Grab the free resource at ValiantLiving.com/episode54 and learn more about Gary’s work at intimacyrecovery.com. If this resonated, follow, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a quick review to help others find their way to deeper recovery and real connection.

If you or someone you love is struggling with addiction, you don’t have to face it alone.

Valiant Living helps men and their families move from crisis to stability through clinically driven care, community, and hope.

Learn more about our programs at www.valiantliving.com
or call us confidentially at (720) 796-6885 to speak with someone who can help.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, hey everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Venny Living Podcast. I hope everyone is having a great start here. My name is Great Alum. Great alumni, the Venny Living Programme. Today we have Luffy Cat. Isn't podcast. We try to talk about it. We started talking about every super interesting every day. I'm happy for you if you don't if you don't care already. I'm happy for you. I hope it's not for you because I don't have a couple. Um I didn't really have a gun late. I didn't really have a late um and I definitely need to have a late self-take next step. So I hope this um resource is is super valuable to you. You can go to ValiantLiving.com slash episode 54 and get that resource. Um but let's go ahead and jump in now with Gary Katz. Well, Gary, thanks for jumping on the podcast with me, man. Yeah, I appreciate having me here. We are we are brand new friends. I think we're we're a week old in our in our friendship here or something like that, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. Uh a week and a half. I feel like you're minimizing the intimacy that we have.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you ever have this is gonna be I'm gonna this I'm gonna feel like I'm gonna go back to middle school here because do you ever have people that you meet and you're just like, I really like that person, and I really hope they like me too, and I'd really like to be friends with them. That was that was my experience with you the first time we met, and so I'm really putting myself out there because I'm fairly confident you didn't have a similar experience, but I didn't okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, um, I really enjoyed me and you. I don't think I thought of it in those terms, but I was excited to I was excited that we were gonna collaborate on something like separate from this, this came out after. Yeah, yeah. And you know, I kind of felt like, yeah, we're gonna we're gonna see because it's it's a nice thing for me to meet someone who both I connect with energetically and I feel like aligned with in terms of kind of emotionally and spiritually, and also has a very, you know, um a very similar uh background to me, um, which is in some way, you know, that in some ways um that's unique. Yeah. And that's I think part of what we connected about. You've been. I felt it. I didn't think of it middle school, but I felt it.

SPEAKER_00:

I appreciate that, man. Yeah, you've been a great friend of Valiant and to a lot of the team there, and and a lot of the team there at Valiant, you know, they think very highly of you and a lot of a lot of partnership stuff through the years and and hopefully a lot more to come as well. Um, I'd love to just get to know you a little bit first. There is something very specific I want to talk about today that we kind of just we threw out like one line because I've I've got a history past, I've dwelled years of vocational ministry and grew up in a pastor's home, and we just started talking about process addiction as it applies to pastors and leaders and religion. And then you're like, hey, I've got all that's my background too. And so we're like, let's talk about it on a podcast. But before we jump into that, um, I'd love to get to know you a little bit. Like, tell me a little bit of your story and how you got into doing the work you're doing.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, sure. You know, I came to this is a second career for me. My first career is as a is as a still am, but was as a rabbi working in Jewish education. Uh I spent seven years in rabbinical school in Jerusalem and then worked in various communities across North America, from Seattle to Edmonton, Vancouver, Florida, and the New York, New Jersey area, mostly for the last, I guess. Well, I've been living here for 30 years, but that's what brought me to New York, New Jersey. And um I just in the world that I had was in, that was the way I felt to help people. I wanted to teach kids. You know, um, I I knew how I felt as a kid. Sitting in class at times and not really able to learn because of so much going on emotionally inside. I didn't understand that's what it was, but that's what it was. And um, I had worked in youth groups and summer camps for kids and the states and in Israel and just felt like that's what I was called to, literally called to. And so becoming a rabbi was the kind of way to do that. Um Yeah, and to me, what I wanted to teach them was or help them was like just to figure out and be the best person they could be. And it felt like teaching, you know, in the world I was in, teaching them Judaism in a way that would help them be a tool to enable that for them. Yeah um, so that really felt like a calling. I mean, a calling that like despite objections from my family or thinking, you don't have a way to support yourself, or what are you doing? Like I was like, I like I God, I am good, we've got a plan. It doesn't make sense to anyone else, but I know it, and I was dogged in it. Um and I was also really lonely, you know, very lonely. And um, I just wanted a family from things that had gone on in my own family. I uh I was now living in, like I said, I was living in Israel, everybody was back here in the States, um, and I just felt so alone and disconnected, uh, despite being in a study hall of 300 other students. Um, and I think also what was happening for me simultaneously, besides the loneliness, was an in uh internalization of things I was learning religiously in a shame-based way.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So uh while the teachings are beautiful and still and are beautiful, the way I internalize them, probably because of other things that I had already experienced as a child, I internalized them through a lens of shame. So there's this famous statement like a hundred students go in to the rabbinical school and one exits as the leader of the generation. And in my mind, I internalize if I'm not that one, I'm a failure. Wow.

SPEAKER_00:

So that wasn't told to you directly. That's just something that you kind of because I relate to a lot of that, because there's a really beautiful upbringing in a lot of ways, but I interpreted things a certain way. And at one point around my recovery, I wanted to hold other people responsible for well, how did you let this happen? But the truth is what they were teaching was actually it was true and it was right, but how I received and processed it was was shame filled.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, um, I don't feel angry or blame religion or any of the teachings or the people that taught me, even if I might not agree with them, some of the things today, I don't feel angry. I don't blame them. I, you know, the first thing I learned in recovery was I'm responsible. You know, like my first sponsor had to make a list of everyone who contributed to, I forgot how he put it, to my addictions or to my problems. I had a long list and he crossed them all out and just put my name at the top. I was like, Wow. What's wrong with it? You're not getting the message here, buddy.

SPEAKER_00:

So for a new sponsor, it sounds like.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and so for me, the loneliness combined with um childhood trauma and internalized shame, just made that a recipe for a ticking time bomb, you know, and um and not also really knowing how to connect. So got married at 19 in an arranged marriage. Um, had my first son at 20, another one at 21, which I'm very grateful for. Um, and then all of a sudden at 22 was already tea a rabbi in teaching. I never went I went from like being a boy to clergy to being a rabbi. I was never called Mr. in my life. I was either called my first name or Rabbi Kath. Wow. Um, and and then, you know, and I looked like I was 12. Um, but it it was um challenging because all of a sudden you're expected to be a leader or to behave in certain ways and to hold standards. And one of the things that I think is a little similar to being a therapist, um, but even harder for clergy, is that you're all you're in a role 24-7. A therapist is in a role for 50 minutes out of an hour because the therapist figured out how to do that scam, a 15-minute hour. But clergy, you know, like it's not likely, unless you live in a small town, that you're gonna, as a therapist, you're gonna bump into your clients wherever you go. It does happen occasionally. When you're a clergy member and you're living in a tight-knit community, chances are you're gonna bump into someone at the grocery store. Chances are, I mean, I remember you said this when we were talking, like you're driving. You you gotta be I used to call it driving while yamaka. Like, I if I was driving, I would would cut someone, and I was I'm not a crazy driver, but I was nervous if I cut someone off in some way. What if it was a congregant? Or if someone wasn't a congregant, but they saw me wearing a yarmulca, which is like those the skull cap. Yeah, it makes a bad name, not just for me, but for all Jews. So it's like this constant standard of being on 24-7, always interested in whoever you bump into, always thoughtful, always kind. And there's no human that is like that. Nobody.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, it's funny because I'm just thinking back, like I would say hi to strangers in public because if they looked at me, I would I would be so afraid of maybe not speaking to someone who may have recognized me that I would my people pleasing, I would just talk to random strangers because I would I didn't want to take a chance on them being, you know what I'm saying? Like, well, what if they go to the church? And I now they're thinking, well, Drew's Drew saw me in the line at Target and never said anything to me. So anybody I catch eyes with, I would say, Hey, how's it going? You know, and then you get the you'd be the master of hey buddy, what's up, man? How you doing, bro? Like, yeah, don't know anybody's name, but you're yeah, yeah. That's so it's interesting.

SPEAKER_02:

There's no, you know, and there's no room to really be messy. Because even if people want a down-to-earth clergy, rabbi, minister, whatever, pastor, they still want you to act at a certain level. Like, I remember being at people's dinner tables and I was teaching their kids, and they're like, Oh, you could swear here, or you could like they would tell dirty jokes, but if I would tell a dirty joke, like they might laugh, but in the back of their mind, they're like, That's the guy teaching my kid religion. You know, so um you're you're always even if it's authentic, most 80% of the time, you're performing still. And so then it's very it's also very lonely because who really gets to know you? So, like you wear you're wearing a mask of a performance, which uh is in some ways it's very similar to what addiction is, where someone's functioning and performing without secrets. So I could call this maybe privacy versus secrets, but this expectation that you're always on, plus the word that you mentioned a minute ago, people pleasing. Many people, including myself, who go into uh community work uh uh as a clergy member or somebody are huge people pleasers and it pays dividends, it's the currency. I will be of service, I will serve the community. And you know, um, I imagine that for someone like you who grew up in a as a son, a child of a pastor, right? Like that has its own lessons because it's that's that's the currency being modeled in the house.

SPEAKER_00:

It's so true. And in the in the current the ROI that you're judged on in church leadership is likability. You know, I mean some churches are like growth and whatever, but you're not really reporting growth. I mean, you want the church to grow, but the environments I was in, it wasn't like, hey, you're fired if the church doesn't get to a thousand by December. It wasn't that. It was like, okay, well, the church healthies are growing. Well, statistics say how a church grows is do the people like the the man or woman up front?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And so your whole and then if you have a big staff, you know, not just your livelihood, but other people's livelihood is all depending on do people like me and will they stay and will they continue to give? And if they don't like me, or if I tell the truth about something that I'm thinking or feeling, and it's it and they leave, they stop giving. Well, all of a sudden I can't make my mortgage payment. And I think I love to hear your thoughts on this, and again again, I want to get back to your story too, but we're just kind of diving in. But it's like feels like a breeding ground for intimacy disorder.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, because you can't be authentic. You have to, you're always performing right.

SPEAKER_00:

And your livelihood and a lot of people's livelihood can depend on performing one thing, and that is do people like me enough to stay and continue to give? It's tough.

SPEAKER_02:

It's tough. I have a I used to have a client, really wonderful, wonderful man, a minister of a church nearby in New Jersey here in New Jersey. Um he would do three services on a Sunday morning. And if he didn't get a certain amount of positive feedback, he felt like a failure. He would, if he didn't get X amount of hundreds of likes on his at that time, Facebook posts, because going back a number of years, he felt like a failure. Like he's constantly reading the metrics of am I liked, does that equal I have worth?

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that that was shaped to me at a young age because we experienced a lot of not a lot, but several church splits as a kid. And how I internalized that was if my dad as the pastor would have led better through those situations, they would never have left. So I told myself, first of all, I'm never gonna let anyone close enough to hurt me like that. Like no one's gonna get in that close. And two, I'm just gonna chain smoke every leadership book that's out there and just, you know, I'm gonna be, you know, whatever, whoever the author of the day was, the Maxwell, the Andy Stanton, the whatever, I'm gonna read all this stuff and I'm just gonna be the best leader because if I can lead at the highest level, people won't leave.

SPEAKER_02:

I did the same thing. I used to stop at the truck stops on the highways here in the uh northeast, and I would buy all the Christian leadership books for the same reason. I thought, oh, there's values in here, leadership values I can learn to make me better, but also to not fail.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, to not fail by, you know, like having people not like me, to not fail by numbers going down, to but the pressure is so internalized it doesn't let up.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and I don't know if this is the way for you, but if you ever got together with uh other rabbis, other pastors, I mean, it's like within the first 30 seconds, it was always, you know, well, how many you run in? How many people you got?

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, it was a lot of posturing and ego. There's a lot of ego in in the you know, not speaking on anyone specific, right? Um, but there is there's a lot of ego with and it's dressed up in spiritual humility, but they're still there, yeah. But humor.

SPEAKER_00:

Of course, of course. Well, tell me how did how did you get from that from I know you're still a rabbi, but from doing that a lot more vocationally into this recovery world, and even if you're willing to share some of even your own recovery where you realize, hey, I need this for myself.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I um I developed a sex and love addiction, and that led me also to substance addiction, substance abuse, and that crashed and burned me fast, the substance abuse smoking crack. And um that brought me into recovery back in 1998, and um I would say for me, recover one of the biggest eye-openers and gifts of recovery was the idea of that quote of like we claim spiritual progress, not spiritual perfection. Like that was mind-boggling to me. It's a quote from the AA Big Book. Like I didn't know that I could just make progress and not be perfect. Um, and so that that there's a room in that space of you know, the um quality of the ability to be imperfect that was so novel but inviting to me. And I really connected with that, and I had to kind of renegotiate my own relationship to God in order to get sober because mine was so shame-based and judgmental. Um, and I didn't even know it at the time. And I would say over the first seven years of my sobriety, um I kind of like went through this process of uh almost like coming out, like someone might come out in some other way. Um, but of like I couldn't even admit to myself that I wanted to connect to God in a different way than I had been trained. And I had a friend who said, Yeah, I think you like being a rabbi, but I don't know you want to be an orthodox rabbi, which is like the more observant level. Like, that's ridiculous. How dare you say that? What are you talking about, you know? And I and then, you know, a year or two later, I was like, Oh, yeah, I don't I don't think I do I feel more connected to God in this other way or that way. And um, and then it took a little while for me to uh tell some other people to come out, so to speak, to them. And then I was sober and I was living a double life. I was working in synagogues and teaching at schools that are were or are orthodox, my income was dependent on it, my identity in the community was it with it, but then I would go with people from recovery to a diner and eat non-kosher food or drive on the Sabbath on Saturday. So I'm like, I didn't get sober to live a double life again. It was really painful, and it took about seven years to get honest with myself about that and then figure out a plan to exit that because it's you know, economically I was dependent on it. I didn't know what else to do. It's what I had done since I was 22. And also, it's a very tight knit community. I'd never lived outside of it since I was an adult. So it was scary. There was a lot of fear, and I feel like a lot of the gifts that I got in recovery or the lessons I learned in recovery helped me to figure that out. Um, and it was shame based because when you know, if an accountant has a change of observance or a change of faith, all right, whatever, right? They can figure it out. If clergy does, people don't like it. No, it's a big deal. It's a big deal. And also I felt a responsibility. I didn't want to confuse kids that I had taught. I didn't know I I didn't have an issue with the religion. I don't didn't have an anger towards it. I just felt like I feel more aligned with this level of observance and this, and I didn't have it figured out either. Like I wasn't, you know, um, so I didn't want to confuse a kid either. That that was important to me. And so it was confusing, it was hard. Um, I had to talk my own, I remember my oldest son was in college. We were looking at colleges at the time when I shared it with him. I was like, I this is where I'm at. I don't, he was like so happy, but I was like, I don't have it figured out, and I'm probably gonna be a hypocrite. I was already being a hypocrite, but I'm like, uh, because I don't have this huge policy, I didn't write a thesis. I'm just trying to figure on the flight of what feels right. And so it was a process, and it was also a weird process because eventually that took me out of Jewish education full time, and I went back to school for social work. And then when I was in grad school for social work, that was the first time I was ever called Mr. I was now probably 40 something, and no one knew I was a rabbi, which also was a weird thing. Like you get a certain you get treated differently when you're clergy, right? Positively and negatively, right? And all of a sudden, I'm just Gary or Mr. Katz. And what was interesting to me was I was like really enjoying it, and then probably in my second semester in grad school, I shared that I was a rabbi. I'm like, what did I do that for?

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Why did I do that? And I would come to terms with like the fact that um actually was a very important part of my identity. I didn't want to disavow it, I didn't want to exile it. It is, and I had to figure out a different relationship with myself and being a rabbi, a member of the crazy that wasn't exactly the same as the, you know, and that was ongoing too. And I started working instead of within the Orthodox community with people who were unaffiliated or who didn't have a structured community. And so that I was able to keep that up for a long time while starting this work.

SPEAKER_00:

And yeah, was there a part of you that felt free, relieved of that title and that thing, or was it more more sadness, like because it was your identity, or it was a little but a little bit of both?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, it was that question. I think we I think a lot of people, um, especially men, like when they don't have work, who are they? Right? Like it yeah, one of our primary identities is men in general, is our job. You know, it's the first question we usually ask them when we meet them. What do you do? Right. Um, and so it was a combination of my profession, but also my identity, like you said. Yeah. So I felt I kind of felt naked, like Adam in the garden. Like, who am I? How do I move through the world? Um, and um also how do I just be an average congregate or an average person, or even how do I find my own spiritual community if I'm not the one running it? And so for a while I made my own for a couple of years, then I got to not have to figure that out, and I still like to do that, might be a little ego too. Um, but I find it really challenging. And I think a lot of people who leave formal or full-time clergy work, it's really challenging to find a place to um to be because also like clergy are kind of weird. Like, I remember sitting in a rabbinical meeting of all these rabbis of this uh on this board. I'm like, who do I want to be my spiritual mentor? I'm like, can't make eye contact, lots of ego, bad breath, um, doesn't stop talking. Like, I was like, there's nobody who I felt both had like was hum like human and personable, but also like the spiritual teacher that I wanted. And I think for me, the biggest compliment I got in as a rabbi, and it's also how I try to be as a therapist. I had this family that I did, their two sons bar mitzvahs, and we were out to dinner one time, and they said to me, Gary, what we like about you is that you're a person who's also a rabbi. You're not a rabbi and then who's also a person. And I didn't, that's exactly what I wanted. Like, I would call it like being relational and therapy speak. And that's how I try to work as a therapist too. Like, yes, I'm the therapist, but I'm we're having a relationship. So um, going back to school to become a social worker and then a therapist to me felt like the same calling as becoming a rabbi 20 years before, which was here, like when I was a teacher in schools, I saw kids and I felt like I had some skills to help them, but I had a lot of things that I couldn't, I didn't have skills to help them. So going back to school was helpful to me to have those skills. I thought I would work with kids because I worked with kids all the time. I found it very different as a therapist. So I actually worked with adults and you know, men and women.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Tell a little bit about just the work you're doing now with intimacy disorder and process addiction, because I think it's it's really important stuff. And then I'd love for you to even define because we've got people listening or watching right now that might be new to all this. So they hear process addiction and they're like, what are they even talking about? So I'd love to hear your definition of that as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So in my own recovery, I had to learn how to well, I just stop the behaviors, stop using drugs, stop acting out sexually. Um, and then I also had to learn how to be intimate with other people. I didn't know how to. Actually, it was not just that I didn't know how to, I was terrified of it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

Which I didn't even know because I could be that people person, like you said, that clergy guy who knows how to. People would be shocked when I would tell them, like, I was so nervous being at a wedding or at a party. Like I used to ask my ex-wife, well, don't leave my side until I'm comfortable. You're like, what? Yeah, I would just be like, what do I say? I get in my head, or I feel insecure or less than. So I had to learn how to have intimate relationships with other people. And as a clergy, many times, like in a power dynamic, you're here and everyone else is here. That's a role that I know how to play. I also know how to be the student. But to be in relationships like this that are peer-to-peer, I never I didn't know how to be. It was too scary. And I was terrified of it because I would get hurt. So my own recovery and journey through that stuff informed a lot of the practice that I have now, which is helping people to first be intimate with themselves. And what I mean by that is to be integrated as a person. So, like using our discussion here about clergy is a really good example. But the same is true for people who have secret addictions or secret lives. Like I have the parts of me that are shiny. I might put them on an interview, I might put them on a podcast, I would put them on social media, and then I have the parts of me that I don't even want to acknowledge exist because it's too ugly or I feel too much shame. Yeah, and they're not integrated. So it's like by 95% of the time, I might be with this shiny, happy person. But this other part of the time, I'm doing things or feeling ways that are so different. So recovery to me was that learning how to be intimate with myself that I can look at all these parts of myself even when it's uncomfortable. Right. And then with the right people, I can even share those with people. Not everybody, but when it's appropriate. And so that's intimacy with others, letting others see into me at a level that um is appropriate. And that's that's like the thumbnail of it all, but there's all these defenses that we all develop from reactions to painful experiences, usually as children, because the pain the experiences are so outsized, impactful because of our little brains and what we you know are who we are, um, that cause us to find smart ways at the time of playing it safe, not getting hurt more. But those there's a line in one of the 12-stop books on sex addiction, which I love, which is that what was the solution became the problem for many people. Substances, sex, high achieving, being the class, the funny guy, being charismatic starts as a solution to something else. But then it becomes more and more maladaptive until it becomes the problem. So that's kind of the how what we focus on. So we try to help people become intimate with themselves, seeing all the parts of themselves, and then and then with others, but also to unwind the ways they may have learned, the strategies they developed that became maladaptive over time that get in the way of that. So, for example, like you said, process addictions, which are things about the way my brain works, versus like I'm addicted to nicotine or for me, it was crack cocaine, um, which is addictive in its nature. Um this is more about what happens in my brain. And I do actually want to say one thing about it to answer your question. So sometimes the brain learns a process that helps it to feel better. And so for some people, sex, let's say we're talking about here, and I know Valiant does a lot of wonderful work with that, is like is considered by many to be a process addiction because it's like what goes on in your brain? Like, so maybe I feel sadness and my brain clicks and does this thing, it like kind of like morphs the sadness, it sexualizes into sexual feelings because the sadness is too pain, and sexualized feelings can be um feel better than sadness or loneliness or yeah, shame.

SPEAKER_00:

Same is gonna be true with gambling, food. These are all process work, yes, work.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think what's unique though with this, and what I've been really thinking about recently is that, and why how I work with my clients and train our staff here is that you really want to get specific to what is the brain process for each person. So, for example, let's say someone's addiction addiction is watching pornography, and they, you know, what does that do for them? So let's say it could be do a variety of things, but let's just say it's about numbing out. So when we work with them on their sobriety and their recovery, it's not just about not looking at porn, it's about not doing things that have that same brain process of numbing out. Now, everybody numbs out at some point, we all do, but learning how to have a health, it's different than let's say someone who goes to A and says, I'm not drinking at all. They have to learn how to have a healthy relationship to numbing out. So, for example, it could be they numb out watching cat videos on YouTube, or they numb out watching basketball. And, you know, what's my relationship? Can I do it in a way that's still healthy so I'm not missing deadlines or I'm not ignoring my relationship? So that's for them. The person who might use sex through like multiple affairs or sex workers or relationships or things like that. Usually the process is not about numbing out, it's more often, let's say, about validation. Oh my gosh, she wants me. Uh oh my gosh, they texted me. Like, oh, they think I'm so funny. So it's like getting, and this is where I think a lot of clergy get caught up, right? Like getting that validation of worthiness. So the process of addiction isn't just only about sex. Actually, it's much bigger than that. It's about validation. So, like, let's look at like what boards are you on as the savior of your community? Or how do you act in front of people? Like, are you doing these attention-seeking behaviors? One guy I know, like, he'll give a hundred dollar tip for like a garage instead of like a three-dollar tip, you know. Wow, that's the same thing. That's him acting out, you know, getting validation. Look, so I want to help now we all need validation. It's a human to be seen. It's it's you know, I'm not telling the guy to wear sackcloth and like you know, go sit under the chair, but it's like learning how to have a healthier relationship to validation.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think you even and maybe this wasn't you. If it wasn't, I'm sorry, but I read an article that I feel like you posted just recently about taking naps. Was that you? And is well naps. Well, I do too, but it was this idea of like just behind like this as an escape versus like rest, like what true rest is versus I'm napping to escape reality. And I hadn't looked at it that way. Like, hey, not that there's necessarily a right or wrong way, but you're actually you're thinking about why am I why am I every day wanting to go take a nap? Am I actually wanting to rest? And one actually does refill you and and recharge the other one, you wake up and you're still not feeling rested because you just did it to not deal with your feelings or whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I mean, I used to have a joke that, like, in the cats family, when there's a crisis, the cat's men get up and they go take a nap. And I didn't, I I observed it, so I knew it happened. And and I remember also like years ago talking to some, I was in a relationship, and whenever I would get that comment, like, hey, I think we need to talk, I would fall asleep. And I was like, what is going on with me? Like, why? Like, no, I don't want to have this conversation, but like, I'm not a jerk. I she's telling me that she's upset about something, and I'm falling asleep. It doesn't work very well. And so, you know, and so I would sit there and like pinch my face or pinch the soft part under my thigh secretly to keep me awake because I literally struggled. And then when I went into recovery and I started going to therapy, it would happen during therapy. And so what I learned is that that's a hypo arousal response, right? Like my bot, like instead of fight, I'm going into like flight or like shutdown mode, like play dead. It's a sign that I'm getting overwhelmed. And so, and and even years later, when I would do certain as a client, EMDR, I would be the client and do EMDR, I would fall asleep sometimes depending on the topic, because my body was so that's how I learned to respond. So I try to check in with myself. Like, I love a good nap. I feel like I have to take care of my health and my energy level. But is this me doing that to recharge, or is this me avoiding? And sometimes even I know it's avoiding, I'm gonna do it, and then I'm gonna go re-engage. So it's not avoiding it completely, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Right. You're gonna come back to whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I like to reference something you said a minute ago that I've never heard before, but I've really I really connected with. And I I think this is true for church leaders, but I also think it's true for a lot of the people that you work with, a lot of the men that come through our program, and that is this my paraphrase of what you said, I can lead or I can follow, but I don't know how to be a peer. Like when you said that, Gary, I've never heard that before, but I struggle now, even now, sitting in church services, sitting in like, and I'm I'm actually pretty, I'm a pretty decent follower. Like I'm a pretty good and I can be a good employee as well, but I almost have to be on either side, either you're my boss and I'm due, and because then I can people please, I can I want to please my boss and get affirmation there, or I want to be your leader, but I don't know how to just be with someone on an equal plane in that intimacy. That was so interesting to me. Could you would you be willing just to unpack a little bit more of that? Because I I think that's definitely true for pastors, because a lot of pastors don't have any problem submitting to someone, another mentor, another pastor or a bishop or whatever. But it's also true, business leaders, I think. I mean, men like high IQD men, like I think that's that's probably true for I can work for a CEO, but I don't know how to be on a team and be equals and connect.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Um, I think we learn, I mean, like I said, I think it's a role that we learn how to play. We usually, especially someone going into the clergy, they first are students at to as they're studying. So they learn how to be in that role. And we know it's very defined, right? Like I'm receiving knowledge, I will do whatever I need to do to learn how to be, to have some humility. Um, and then once I'm the teacher or the leader, I also know what to do. I mean, I know how to be in that role too, like it's very well defined. But when it's peer-to-peer, it's not about my role, it's kind of more about my heart. The currency is not the role I play, the currency is showing up as an equal. And if you think about even like when we're peer-to-peer, we're like eye to eye, right? Like that's much harder than I can look down or I can look up. And I think it's interesting because I see it's a big difference between the communities. Obviously, this is an overgeneralization, but I really believe it's true. In the substance abuse communities, like let's say the 12-step communities like AA and things like that. They're told early on, get a sponsor, call three people today. And most people who still get involved in recovery, they do that. They might be hesitant, you know. That is the hardest thing to do in the sex addiction recovery community. They'll do a workbook, they'll even listen to their spouse tell them what they did wrong. They will listen to another podcast about betrayal trauma for their spouse, they will meditate, gratitude list, journal, but tell them, hey, call a guy and go have dinner or go watch a basketball, go play basketball together. They're like, it's literally the most resistance I get of anything.

SPEAKER_01:

Why is that shame?

SPEAKER_02:

Because it's in it's the personality type, I think, and it's also intimacy avoidance. And I feel it's something that I feel very strongly about because I I you know I I had to deal with it for myself, but I also feel like the wounds that we have that we have are relational, so the healing has to be relational. It's not going to be in a workbook. It's not. And so I intentionally like push clients to I just told two different guys today, like, call this guy or call someone from your group and tell them you're having a hard time. I can't do that. Why not? You're going to a meeting every day, you're willing to try that new thing, you're willing to go to therapy four hours a week with your wife, in group, individual. What's different? And it's because it's scary, right? Like scary, it's it's being back in the playground in the sandbox saying, like, do you want to be my friend? Kind of what you started with.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

How you said, like you, like when we met, and I felt the same thing. It's like, oh, I like this guy. And you know, I figured it's gonna unfold and we'll have a nice friendship and professional relationship. That's how I felt too. But it's the same feeling like you described so well. Like, I'm back in middle school. Who do I sit with? Who wants who's my people? Will they like me? Is my outfit cool? You know, like yeah, do I have to talk a certain way? Like, it's the same stuff. So I feel like it's so much harder and it's there's more at risk.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. Talk to that person that you mentioned this earlier. So say say it's I'm gonna say clergy, it could be pastor, rabbi, but I think it applies to a lot of different positions that says, Hey, I think I may have a problem. I don't know if I'm I don't know if I'm willing to call an addiction yet. I know I wasn't. In my intervention, they told me I would I potentially had an addiction. I was like, I don't know, like that's nonsense because I didn't know any of this stuff yet. Um, but they fear, man, any disclosure of what I'm going on, what's going on in me to my family, to my faith community, my church community, it's going to impact everything. My identity, my role, my finances. And I'm stuck in this cycle of even if I don't know what to call it addiction yet, I just know it's not working. What do you say to a guy like that or a woman like that, even?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, first of all, I usually get them after the fact, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. I mean, right, they're coming to our my office to Valiant because they didn't act on it early enough, usually, unfortunately, not to interrupt you, but now on this side of things, there is a part of me when that happens where I'm so um I'm so glad for them. Because I feel like I know this is the worst thing that you feel like has ever happened to you, but man, the what you're gonna start to experience now, the freedom, even the connection with God, if you'd like. I mean, it might be a totally different kind of connection than what you experienced, but it's like once all the the BS kind of comes down, I'm like, now you can actually start to recover yourself in your life. So like I hate to hear it because I know it traumatizes families and church congregations all that. So I'm not like cheering on that part of it, but for the person, I'm like, man, I'm I'm so glad you now get to like go to work.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. I don't think someone can hear that. Like you're speaking a language that they do not understand, right? You know, but I would still say it sometimes, I think. But I would say if someone, I mean, if someone's already had that happen in their process of their life blowing up, I just try to walk alongside them in the pain. And I want them to know it will get better. It doesn't at early on it doesn't feel like it, and sometimes it gets worse, but um, it does get better. Um, I've seen it, I've experienced it. Um, I think the person who hasn't yet got that and they're still hedging, they're not gonna believe me. The fear is so great. And so what I usually just say to them hopefully lovingly is I just hope that you can, you know, let's to work to try to get the willingness to address this before you're forced to in a way that is less on your terms.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

But the fear is so great, and my experience is also that eventually it's gonna come out.

SPEAKER_00:

Almost always, right? Just it's hard to avoid that. What about a pastor that feels like or or spiritual leader that feels like, man, because of this thing in my life, I'm now I'm disqualified. You know, that that word was specifically used in my case in the announcement to the church. And I've done some work around it actually. I've actually have a I have a really good ref reframe uh for that word now, but um but at first it was really hurtful. Like I I really struggle with that word. What do you tell the the people you're walking with around that? Like, hey, I'm I'm I'm done.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I usually would encourage them to like not make any quick decisions, right? Like like to life is long and um you know they may have done some things as a member of the clergy, like I have too, that they really regret and even harm people and feel tremendous shame about. Um and maybe that means they shouldn't do it anymore, or maybe if they can change and not be that same person, then that experience that they've had and the pain from it and the shame from it in a healthy way, healthy shame, actually can propel them to help people in a in a very different and unique way. But we're not there yet. Right now we're in like free fall, and I totally get it. And you know, and I usually challenge them if they have kids, you know, I would or a belief with what God feels like if your child does something wrong, even horrific, does that change how you love them? If you love them, most people still love their kind, they may not like their kid at that moment or they may not like what they did, right? But they still love their child. And I would say the same thing is true for you. Your value as a human isn't defined by one or a number of things you've done, and especially when you work to change it, it' um it really makes a difference. So, you know, let's tease out the difference between the unhealthy, toxic, intrinsic shame that you're just broken and a disgusting person to the healthy shame that can help you to like not do it again.

SPEAKER_00:

Is that part of how you also start to untangle the identity? Like it's so it's so deep in there. Like, how do you start to get us clergy to stop identifying as pastor rabbi and start seeing ourselves? Is that even the possibility?

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, I try to like some I have some I've I work with a lot of clergy for the reasons, you know, my background, the reasons we're talking about from all faith. Sometimes the hour a week with me, it's the only time they can like be messy. You know, whether they have an addiction or not, you know, like it's the only time they can complain about the people in their congregation without worrying about it. It's the only time they can be like, I don't feel like doing this thing, or it's the only time they can question stuff or have be doubtful because they're supposed to be a person of conviction and confidence and faith and all these things. So I think that having the space just for that is so important, but um really kind of modeling as a therapist for them. What I would hope that they would have as a clergy, which is what I said before, is that they're a person first and then they're the clergy. Can they can they start to like be human? Can they just be a human being instead of this like messenger from God, so to speak, or this person teaching about God or religion that's supposed to have it all figured out and always be the nice person.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And you know, I'm speaking of intimacy, right? Like clergy who feels petty feelings or jealousy of another clergy or a congregant or feels envy of someone in their church who has a nicer car, that's human.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02:

We all have it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I've man, that's so true. I mean, and I think being.

SPEAKER_02:

In our first car, because in our first call last week, you were in the car. I'm just that's right.

SPEAKER_00:

That's right. Well, I mean, I think I would if I had to go back and do other lot of things I would do differently, but I I love what you just said because I think I would acknowledge the different parts of me that I felt like I had to ignore because it was not very pastoral to feel those things. And like one very common practice in the circles I grew up was before you would step out on stage to do anything, you would have almost like this sin-purging prayer. You would pray that it's like, God, in order for you to use me, you know, would you would you please forgive me of all my sins and cleanse me? And I just want to be a vessel that you can use and anything that would stand in the way of, you know, all that kind of stuff, right? Which is, I don't think in and of itself is a bad prayer. I just don't know that it wasn't it was entirely possible for me to do because I still walked up on stage as a human, but I was trying to be superhuman in that moment. Like I don't have anything going wrong. I just literally hit the cleanse, the reset button. I'm perfect walking out on stage, and now I'm gonna sing or lead or preach, perfect. As opposed to now, I think I would just my prayer would be, God, I do have this part of me that really wants to honor you, and I want to not have you know this unhealthy ego, but also man, I really want people to like me and I really care about this. And I think I just would bring it all and just say, here it is, and I'm just gonna walk out there with all of it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. I didn't, I didn't, you know, I don't have that prayer, so but so I didn't have that experience, but I get what you're saying. I think for me the challenge is that there's also a currency in acting like you're messy, but not really being.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my gosh, dude, you are reading my mail, bro.

SPEAKER_02:

It's a currency I'm thinking of that. Public speakers, politicians show a little human side, but then still have to be the politician. And clergy can be like, oh, I struggle with that too, but they're not really struggling with it. But they're saying they're they're sharing a little messiness, but it's kind of like I still got it together.

SPEAKER_00:

Because it's so endearing to be that the the right level of vulnerable, like so.

SPEAKER_02:

Then you learn how to act that way that feels authentically vulnerable, but it still can be a performance, and that's really risky. It's like being in, you know, you can smell it in a 12-step meaning too, and the person shares a very humble way, but it's also guarded, performative, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yeah. Gosh, I was the I was the master of that. Preach on depression, anxiety, all of a sudden, people come to me, oh, you're so open and vulnerable. And I'm just like, Yeah, you know like 10% of you see the tip of the iceberg. I was so good at making you feel that I was being honest. And I I mean, it wasn't like it was necessarily dishonest, it just wasn't the whole story, that's for sure. Correct. Well said, yeah. Well, first of all, I got one last question for you, and you didn't ask me to do this, but can you where can we find just the work you're doing? Is there a website we could go to, or where what's the best place to see all the stuff that you got going on?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, I think our website's probably the easiest place. It's intimacyrecovery.com, www.intimacyrecovery.com. Also on there, you'll find my email. But if anybody wants it, like, and if you're a clergy and you need someone to reach out to besides you, Drew, you're anyone's welcome to reach out to me. I'm happy to chat, find a time to chat and either provide some support or guidance or something. But my email is my name, Gary Katz, G-A-R-Y-K-A-T-Z at intimacyrecovery.com. Um and yeah, you know, I think I think another conversation that'd be valuable to have in another episode, similar to the clergy, is like mental health professionals.

unknown:

Right?

SPEAKER_02:

The double standard, like, even though it's there's a very big difference to from clergy, but the same issues of like fearful, fearful protection of one's reputation from really actually getting the help you need.

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm. Well, and I think we'd be well, we got to tease out a little bit the the partnership we got coming up, and right there in Denver. We're gonna do a we're gonna connect, we're gonna kind of do an experience for mental health professionals, the people in this place to come in. Sound bath. I mean, that's Melissa, our wellness director is gonna come in and do sound bath, and I'll leak all the information and details uh in the in the episode, but that's coming up in beginning of of February, I think, right? Yeah, yeah. About three weeks.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I'm already looking at what restaurants to go to in Denver and everything.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Okay, final word, and thank you so much. And I I don't want to keep you, but this has been so great. If you're gonna go back and you're gonna you're gonna sit down with 19-year-old Gary, or maybe even it's easier to think about the clergy across the table from you. What's the thing that you wish someone would have told you at 19?

SPEAKER_02:

Um that just made me really sad. Um you're okay. You're lovable. You have everything you need, you just have to connect to it.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. That was that was pretty emotional for both of us. As soon as we stopped recording, um, we kind of had to just sit with what Gary said for a minute because it brought up a lot of a lot of feelings for for both of us. And I'd imagine if you're if you're listening to this too, and maybe you're a pastor or um clergy of some sort, or maybe just a leader within the church, um, or maybe you're uh a statement or a therapist, and you're you're working um with these kind of people that are that are really struggling with this. Um I think this I think the simplest estimate we put together might might be a help for you. As I mentioned earlier, you can go to dynamicliving.com slash episode 54 and you can download. Um, it's free, of course. All the resources we put up are free to just serve you and all you're doing. Super grateful for the work that all of you guys are doing that are in the field if you're listening to your family members. Or maybe someone who's struggling we want to be a resource to you. Even if we can help you, we want to get you all the things. Um it's coming up here. That's coming up next episode. Unbelievable that she's doing in the restoration in a kill to bring in an episode. But until next time, we have a wonderful week for engaging listening to the

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Drew Powell

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