Valiant Living Podcast
Welcome to the Valiant Living Podcast where we educate, encourage, and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom.
Valiant Living has been restoring lives and families since 2017 by providing multiple levels of care for men and their families. Fully accredited by The Joint Commission, Valiant Living has earned a national reputation as a premier treatment program, offering IOP, PHP, and recovery housing programs for men ages 26 and older. Founder and CEO MIchael Dinneen is a nationally recognized therapeutic expert, speaker, and thought leader in the behavioral health field.
On this podcast you’ll hear from the Valiant team as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at (720)-756-7941 or email admissions@valiantliving.com We’d love to have a conversation with you!
Valiant Living Podcast
Dad Went to Rehab. Daughter Went to College: A Hard Conversation About Boundaries, Courage, and Healing.
The week Grace packed for college, Drew packed for rehab. What followed wasn’t a neat redemption arc, but a raw, practical path: loving leverage, clear boundaries, impact letters, and the slow re-growth of trust. We open with a feelings check—fear, shame, anger, gladness—then trace the hardest choice Grace made: asking her dad not to be part of move-in so she could protect her heart and he could face reality. That boundary didn’t just hold a line; it helped save a family.
Grace shares how college became her lifeline. New friends formed a portable sanctuary where she could tell the truth about addiction, grief, and hope without being defined by them. She names the paradox of healing—freedom away from home, sorrow when returning, and the relief of not managing a parent’s emotions. We walk through the impact letter process that precedes amends, how Drew sat with her words in group therapy, and why empathy must come before apology. A small crisis—a car accident—became a trust test he passed by simply showing up.
We dig into the interior shifts too. Drew describes surrendering control and the ego-breaking work of early treatment. Grace noticed a gentleness where force used to live, a willingness to listen rather than steer. Together we redefine “functional family” as one that admits the mess and tells the truth. Grace explains how crisis clarified her identity and sparked a calling to counsel kids and families—the very help she once needed. This is a story about recovering hearts and voices, not erasing the past but learning to carry it with honesty and hope.
If you’re a parent entering treatment or a student navigating the fallout, there’s practical help and real hope here. Grab our free resource for college students and young adults at ValiantLiving.com/episode 53, subscribe for more candid conversations, and leave a review to share what boundary or moment began your healing.
If you or someone you love is struggling with addiction, you don’t have to face it alone.
Valiant Living helps men and their families move from crisis to stability through clinically driven care, community, and hope.
Learn more about our programs at www.valiantliving.com
or call us confidentially at (720) 796-6885 to speak with someone who can help.
Well, hey everyone, welcome back to the Valiant Living Podcast. This is episode 53. I'm your host, Drew Powell. And today, man, a very emotional episode. I was able to have an interview, a conversation with my daughter, Grace. She's my oldest daughter, the oldest of four kids. And when I went to rehab in the summer of 2022, is when she was getting ready to move off to college. And so it was an extremely emotional time, a very difficult time in our family's life. And Grace has agreed to come on and talk about her experience, what has changed in her, how it's shaped her, what our relationship is like. And man, it's super honest, it's super vulnerable. So I hope it's helpful, especially for families, for parents, maybe that are having a good rehab and feeling some guilt and shame around the impact it has on their kids. Maybe you're a college student or you're a young adult and you're trying to navigate all these very difficult waters. And so we hope this episode is helpful for you. Also, we created a resource specifically for you. It's on our website. If you go to ValiantLiving.com slash episode 53, you'll find a resource that are really helping you as a college student or a young adult navigate this really difficult season. So we hope that's helpful for you. And as always, if we can serve you or your family, go to ValiantLiving.com. But with that said, let's jump in with Grace Powell. Well, hi Grace.
SPEAKER_01:Well, hi Dad.
SPEAKER_00:This isn't awkward at all.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's not.
SPEAKER_00:Welcome to the Valiant Living Podcast.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks. Glad to be here.
SPEAKER_00:Um I told you before we started recording, I'd love to just check in real quick. I think in a lot of ways it's for my own sake because I I think in s in these type situations, I can tend to be performative and want to make sure I'm saying and doing the right things. And I think in order for me to be present, maybe it's helpful for you in this interview to just kind of check in like what we're feeling and kind of start there. Yeah. That's okay. Yeah. Um, because what we're talking about has a lot of a lot of weight to it. We've done a lot of work as a family in the last three years, but also it's I think we would be amiss to not acknowledge that there's some some heaviness to it. So you want you want me to go first?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, good.
SPEAKER_00:I'm definitely, you know, we we talk, we use a lot of chip dodd's eight core feelings. Oh yeah. Um so that's a big part of our the language of our household. So if I'm if I'm using those eight, I definitely have like top plate for me is probably um some shame. I've had shame come up a lot over the last few days. Um some some anger, but behind the anger is is shame. Um definitely have some fear, um uh gladness. I'm glad to be sitting here with you having this conversation. Um But yeah, I think that's kind of what I'm what I'm feeling right now with shame being my my top plate.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, that's good. Um I think for me right now feeling some fear. I think that's my top one right now. Um also very glad. I think those are more like my two big feelings that I'm like feeling right now. Um some hurt and some sadness. Yeah, yeah, mix of mix of a lot. But I think I think my top one is fear.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Well, thanks for sharing that with me. You ready to dive in?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know how so I've I I was able to do this with your sister, Imory, a while back. Yeah. But I don't outside of that, I don't know how many times a dad gets to have a conversation and record it with their daughter about their experience around going to rehab and treatment and getting healthy and just the the effects of of that, not just on the addict themselves, but on the whole family system and also the importance of the family system, or at least in our our case, of you know, me getting healthy and going or at least starting that process. And so, anyways, I'm I'm really grateful to that you're willing to share your story. And even though Emery did it, it's different because every one thing we learned is that the recovery process and the healing process is different for everybody in the family. Hers, your siblings situation is different than your situation. So it's it's not like you work one um amends process for the whole family, it's like it's individual. We might talk about some of that. But before you introduce yourself, you're my eldest daughter, in whom I'm well pleased.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yep. I'm the oldest. My name is Grace. Um, I'm 21 years old. Um I am a senior at Southeastern University.
SPEAKER_00:Which just blows my mind that you're graduating this year.
SPEAKER_01:I know, I know. It's insane. Yeah, I graduate in the spring.
SPEAKER_00:And when you're studying.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm studying multidisciplinary studies with a double major in family ministry.
SPEAKER_00:Let's go.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, it's great.
SPEAKER_00:And when we were walking through this crisis as a family, it was a summer of 2022, August. Um, talk a little bit about where you were in your in your place of life then, because you were 17. Talk a little bit about that, because it was it was a huge transition season for you already.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Oh yeah. So I I graduated high school in the spring, and then you went to treatment. I want to say like a week or two before my birthday and my 18th birthday and moving to Florida, going to Southeastern. Yeah. And so that was a lot of change and like even just moving to to Southeastern and moving states, like that in of itself is a lot of change. So I think like you also going to treatment, it was just it was a lot all at once.
SPEAKER_00:Do you rem what do you remember feeling during that time when you were, you know, here's dad going off to Denver. We were supposed to move you in as a family. We had been looking forward to this for so long. It's our first child moving in for a freshman year, moving from Tennessee to Florida. It was a big deal, and all of a sudden, that is all turned upside down. Yeah. So here you are going to Florida, just you and mom. I'm in Denver. We're not we're not even in contact at that point. We're on a kind of a I think we were on a on a like a therapeutic break at that point, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. We weren't talking like hardly at all. I remember we we FaceTimed before I I left on my birthday. And that was pretty much the the only time I talked to you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um and it was honestly, it was a really big deal for me, just wrestling with a lot of disappointment and hurt. Because it was literally like a bomb went off in our family, and it was just like, you know how like in movies when it's like it's their ears are ringing and it's like the bomb goes off, and it's like, oh my gosh, where am I? Like everything is in slow motion. Yes, it's like that. Like, wow, that's kind of like what that was like for me of like, I can't like it's so hard to even like get my bearings right now. Yeah, and so I think that's why it was such a big deal, and it was so difficult for me to not like include you on that day. I think that was the first time of me moving in, of like that was the first time I really like set a boundary with you of like I like you're not gonna be part of this. And so it was it like I really wrestled with that. Like, I remember like just like really struggling the night before moving in with mom in the hotel room of like just like this is really hard, and like I because it's like those conflicting feelings of like you're my dad, I want you to be part of this, but like I'm feeling so much hurt and like it like it was important for me to like to make that boundary of like for me of like this you you kind of lost that place in my life at that time to be part of that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, man. I can't even imagine how difficult that has to be to make that call because this is so this is early in treatment for me. Well, let's let's rewind a little bit back to my the intervention that was had for me. The biggest reason why I said I wasn't gonna go to treatment was I'm not gonna miss Grace's move-in. Like I'll go after that. And in my just like looking back on it now, it's so silly because for me to even think that that was an option, you know, for me to think that I'm gonna just go to Florida and pretend like we're, you know, one day happy family in the midst of crisis is just absolute insanity. But I remember telling everybody, like, hey, I'll I'll consider going, but I'm not gonna miss Grace's move-in, I'm not gonna miss her 18th birthday, which was both in August. And you had already sent over well, let's put it this way something was read to me in that meeting from you, your words. Could you kind of unpack and kind of describe some of that? Because a big theme of this episode that I want people to hear is how absolutely devastating it is, but how significant it is for people to draw boundaries and use what Michael Denine calls loving leverage. Yeah, because I was using every excuse possible to not go, but to hear you say what you said even during my intervention was like, oh wow. It was like some reality was starting to set in. Um, can you describe a little bit of that? Like when because you guys were ready, you guys had already like got out in front of all my potential excuses for why I couldn't go, and we're we're ready, we're prepared for with an answer. Talk about that a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was it's just kind of funny like how it all like fell in line. Cause it's like I remember like on that day when mom told us everything that was going on. One of my like the first things that I said is I don't want him at my 18th birthday, and I don't want him moving me in. Wow, like that was like that was like the first time I was like, There, like he can't have any part of this. Wow. And like, and I think there's a reason why because it's like well, first of all, I was hurt, I was angry with you, like and then also like drawing that boundary of like you like this is not like in order to like protect me and not bend to what you want, because I know you wanted to be part of that, and there's a part of me that wanted you to be part of that too, but it's like in order to like make sure that I was okay and like putting myself first in that, yeah, I think that was that was like the big thing for me of like I like I'm just trying to protect myself, right? You know, right? Um but yeah, it was a really it was a really difficult thing, but I'm but it's also like I'm kind of glad that it did go down the way it did, because then it got you to treatment, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Well, 100% because if if so I said I'm not gonna miss Grace's move in her 18th birthday, and they read me a text that was from you that basically said I I don't remember exactly what it said, but the the gist of it is I want you to go get help. I want you to go get healthy, go go to treatment. Um, it wasn't harsh, but the it basically alluded to I I don't want you at these things, or basically like I I would rather you go get help than be at these things. I mean it was worded very carefully, but it was like one of those like reality moments for me. I'm like, oh wow, this is like the the the BS is over.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because the bottom line was if you weren't gonna go to treatment, there was no way you were gonna be part of my life. That's what was going on in my head. Of like, if he's not willing to like do this for our family and do this for us, then like why would I let you back into my life again?
SPEAKER_00:That makes sense, yeah. What gave you the courage to draw such a strict and harsh, like not harsh and like not in that way, but like um to hold such a boundary to be like, hey, listen, it's it's this or you don't have access to me anymore.
SPEAKER_01:Um I think part of it was like mom, like I a lot of it was just me following her lead.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And I think that's true for a lot of the siblings of like we like we just didn't know what to do, so we're like just following mom's lead and just like talking to her about how I was feeling because I mean I was hurting and upset, and but also I also leaned a lot on Jill. Okay, who's there?
SPEAKER_00:Family therapist sat down and shout out to Jill.
SPEAKER_01:Shout out Jill.
SPEAKER_00:Um I remember calling her like the night of moving in, because I remember you were trying to also FaceTime like throughout the day, like Yeah, because I at that point I wanted to still be a part of your move-in weekend via FaceTime.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And um I remember like really like leaning on Jill like during that time of like I don't like feeling guilty that I drew that boundary and like she just really like kind of like was a person for me to lean on of like it's okay that you like don't want him to be there, like he hurt you, and like it's okay that like you don't want him to be there, right? You know, and I and I really needed to hear that, I think, because I was just wrestling with like so much like conflicting feelings that it's like I just needed that reassurance that like it's okay for you to like draw this boundary, you know, because I'd never really done it before, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Well we had we had developed such a pattern of codependency in our family with me being the center of our worlds, and whatever I wanted was kind of the like everyone just kind of went along with what I wanted, and this was like the first time where everyone was like, Nope, yeah, that's over. And you guys drew on each other, but like like you said, the therapist. And this was around the time where Jill told me something, and I've repeated this a lot, where she said to me, like Andrew, you you smoke people, and basically the reason why they wouldn't let me have or encourage you guys not to have contact with me and drew a boundary there, and or I should say helped you guys draw the boundary because Valiant doesn't draw the boundary. I mean, they'll advise and whatever, but it's it's your decision to do this. Because if I would have talked to you guys, or if I would have been a part of that weekend, like in hindsight, I'm so grateful that you drew those boundaries, even though at the time it was hard. Um, and I don't think I was angry, I think I was more sad, like the weight of my decisions was starting to set in. But in hindsight, I'm like, that was part of the work for me, which was feeling the weight of the trauma and the hurt that I've caused. Um, and at the same time realizing like me using, you know, and as Jill says, smoking people, using people to feel better. Like a big part of me wanting to be a part of that move-in weekend was I didn't want to feel the guilt and the shame of missing it. So if I could have FaceTimed in or I still want to be a part of it or interject, then I would it would have made me feel better about what was going on in my life. But you had to stand up and say, No, wait a minute, he's not gonna use me to feel better. He's hurt me. I don't want him to just pop in and out all day long. Like, I want to be present at my move in, I don't want to have to think about this. And I remember that the team they were saying, Hey, they're trying to like go on with their life. Every time you pop in, it reminds them again of this the current situation, and you're disrupting their lives. And so you having to say, in this scenario, no, that was so good for me in hindsight. Like, hey, it's not about you anymore, big fella. Like, you're not using us anymore. Yeah, that was so so important. So you went on, you went and did your move-in weekend with mom.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was it was great. It really like I think not being kind of like what you were saying of like not being taken away from like FaceTiming you and like the reminder of like, okay, my dad is all the way in Colorado in treatment, like it's just like a hard reality to come to terms with, too. So I think like being present and like of course there was like there was still like some sadness there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, I think we'll we'll always carry sadness. Oh, yeah. I mean, like I'll always, you know, sadness is is the emotion that comes up when something's lost.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And we lost that weekend together. And I'll always be sad about that. Yeah. Like I'll never not carry sadness of like, man, I I can't get that back. Now, what's also true is because we're doing the work, we've we're able to actually recover. I mean, you talk about being in recovery, it's recovering what was lost.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:We're able to, we've been able to recover a lot of things that we wouldn't have had otherwise. So, yeah, I did have to miss some important things. You know, that's way better than missing all the rest of the important things for the rest of of our lives, you know. But yeah, there's gonna be sadness there around that, yeah, around that weekend. Do you feel like in some ways like you're 17 years old? You're you're about to turn 18 in college, you turn 18 in August that year. Did you feel like it made you kind of like grow up faster or I don't want to put words in your mouth, but did you feel like there was something also lost just in like the final stages of your childhood? Or I I don't know. Is there something in there for you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think they're they're definitely is like a part of that of like um like like an innocence I think um I think we've kind of like talked about that as a family like we there's just like this innocence that was lost of like a carefree like no worries like and I know like I kind of felt that especially during move in when I just saw families like moving in together and it was such like a fun and joyous time especially or even like seeing my roommate move in and stuff like because they were our close friends I saw I mean Jackie has been on this podcast before and they're close friends. We were it was supposed to be a weekend our families all went down together and here I am not there you know yeah definitely so there's a lot of disappointment with that um and just like being like dang like this really sucks that like this is kind of like more of a sad time for me than it is like a like a fun time or like a a joyous time and that like um like missing out on what could have been yeah for us.
SPEAKER_00:Right. You know right. Well talk a little bit about that first year of college first semester. So now you're there you're the oldest of the family and you've always carried some you know responsibility you've always been a really great um role model and you know someone for the siblings to look up to the family's going through this crisis and all of a sudden you're off to Florida. Yeah you're out I mean you're down there doing your thing trying to you know be present and immersed in your freshman year of college when you remember back that first year what what feelings and emotions come up for you? Were you were you glad to be kind of gone and out of out of it or were you carrying like some responsibility of like I'm leaving the family in the season like I'm curious what was going on for you during that time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I think it was like it was a mix of both of like I'm at this new place no one really knows me um and like no one like knows my story and it was kind of nice like it was kind of freeing of like this is like I can become anyone I want to be you know like apart from my family and all the crap that's going down you know um but I also think like I've love you guys and I love being part of this family. And so it was really really difficult leaving whenever our family was trying to heal and being away and then coming back home for like short periods of time of like I get back to the house and I'm like okay what's like what's the situation like walking back into the battle zone or kind of yeah yes exactly so it was just like a mix of like okay I'm like I'm kind of free from this and I can like figure out like what's going on inside of me and like I can like just like detach a little bit um but then also like just feeling really sad like Emory AJane Bentley and mom like they're like still at home like still struggling like like this really sucks. Like I can't be part of it. And I remember there was there was a part of me before I even left for school I talked to mom and I was like I like I really like don't think that I should go to school like I really so I didn't know that. I was like I don't like I'll stay here and like we I'll just like figure it out and like and just like stay and like hear like heal with you guys. And she told me she's like I think it would be detrimental to you if you don't go to school.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so I'm I'm so grateful that she told me that because that's kind of what like pushed me over the edge of edge of like I like I have to go. You know in hindsight like I'm glad that I did like so glad that I did.
SPEAKER_00:Well and you you mean you met some incredible friends like almost day one right that are still your roommates and friends all the way to this day and a support system that we're so grateful for. Talk a little bit about that from the standpoint of you know if if someone's listening that has college students or adult children, you know, just the importance of finding people that will walk alongside you during those tough seasons. I think a lot of people would hear this and everything you're saying would make total sense. Well I need to put my dreams on hold I need to put everything on hold but you're like you know what this is going to be tough but I'm gonna go through it anyway and in in doing that and having the courage to step out it's almost like what what you needed you were met with what you're what you're needed.
SPEAKER_01:Talk about that just from the standpoint of like stepping out having the courage to step out and then finding that every step of the way what you're what you needed was available to you yeah um I think doing it afraid is like a big thing of like I like I was afraid to do it but it's like it just takes that like step of just like okay I don't know what this looks like but like I'm just gonna do it anyways because I know it'll be good for me. And I think like with the friendships that I made um like I I know that they're gonna be like lifelong friendships and I found so much healing in like in relationship with them and like finding like when my family didn't feel safe and secure like I found that with my friends and that was just such a like that was so healing for me especially like I was able to be honest with them about like what I was going through and I was met with such like I don't know like it was just like so much comfort and like and like they were just like in it with me like literally from day one like one of my best friends I met her on the first day and we are best friends like to this day. Yeah you know and so shout out shout out shout out JQ um but yeah I I don't think I could have done it like without them and also without having the courage to be honest with them. Yeah because I didn't want like me telling them I didn't want them to like view me or my family differently.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. There's a lot of shame that comes along with like well how are people gonna view us or receive us or yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah definitely so I think like the honesty part of it and like having the courage to like and of course like making sure that they're like trusted close people in your life too um yeah that was just like a really like healing part for me.
SPEAKER_00:Well and I I think too like it's it's really comforting for me as a parent and for the other parents listening that we can trust that like we don't have to I think for a parent it's it's sometimes I feel like my whole goal is to keep you guys from experiencing pain and hardship. And I got to control that and I got to you know but it's like you can trust that you're gonna work your process that you're gonna get what you need that God is kind that our higher power is looking out for us and is going to give you what you need when you need it. And that's been true in our lives even before this.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But it's just a great reminder of like oh wait a minute it's not all dependent on me to you know give Grace everything she needs like or our our higher power excuse me is like I got this like I've got friends for her I've got a path for her I got the right school for her I mean even this the school environment has been great for you you know and it's just a great reminder that in recovery as we're as we're taking steps as a family and we're all taking steps to get healthy that no one is left out from getting what they need in this in this recovery process you know and stories are different. I mean some some people work the recovery process and you know they're for whatever reason their families go different ways or their process takes them different ways or sometimes there's just been too much hurt or damage done and you know whatever. But you know for Valiant for us our our mission and Danine will say this it's bringing families back together. I mean at the end of the day and that's not always possible but at the end of the day if we can that's that is our goal. Like we want to help bring families back together. And I think you sharing part of your story is a great reminder that that is possible if everyone is willing to do the work. It's totally possible there's hope for every family out there if you do the work and it's hard. Oh yeah I mean it's it's so hard but even hearing you tell the story now it's just comforting to know that you had everything you need when you needed it. Not that it took the pain away it wasn't about ignoring the pain but you had you had everything you needed you feel that to be true?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah definitely and I think I knew like just our family being surrendered to the process of what it means to like recover um like recover our hearts you know yeah like talk about that for a minute what does that mean for you for me I think it was when everything happened it was just complete and utter heartbreak. Like it was just like like everything has shattered to pieces um and so there was a lot to recover. Yep and so I think like this recovery process is just like part of just putting the pieces back together. Sure. That's how I that's how I kind of view it of like finding that that healing of like okay like let's recover my heart my voice my feelings I love that stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00:So what is the for on for your on your side of things what is the trust building process what does that look like for us you know from so it's been over three years three and a half years but you know it's given us some some time to recover and heal but it's still pretty early. I mean it's pretty I mean it still feels somewhat fresh we're getting some time and space away from it right but it's you know it doesn't take much to tap back into some of those old feelings like it hasn't been that long. So for the people listening or watching that are worried like will I ever trust again will I ever regain their trust what does that look like for you now yeah um like you mean in our relationship?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I think so okay um I think I think it's slow. It's definitely like it took time and it takes time um but I think it's the continual like showing up and doing what you say that you're gonna do and like kind of like kind of proving yourself you know of like I'm I am in recovery I'm on this journey and I'm figuring things out and it can be messy and that's okay but just showing up in that of like and I think for me that builds trust of like okay like he is doing what he's he said that he's gonna do. Right. You know um and I I remember early on there there was do you remember the car accident that I got in um of course yeah it's kind of funny how that how that happened we got in a car accident and I me and my friends got in a car accident in October I think around that time in the fall like after like my freshman year. Like so like all this was going down and I think you were starting to visit home again. And I remember like calling you and like getting in that car accident and like it was such a big deal for me somehow because I in that moment I was able to like lean on you in that moment and that was just like that was such a big deal to me because I thought I thought you were a person I could never lean on again. And so like even though that was a really not good situation of me getting in a car accident and it wasn't it wasn't even that bad but it just kind of shook me up because I hadn't really gotten a car accident before but it kind of showed me it was like the first step of like okay like maybe like he showed up for me in that moment like what if he shows up for me again you know and like kind of like having like trusting you and that you're doing the work and also having the faith that like you are going to do what you said that you're gonna do it yeah in some ways it's just it's it's not that it's easy but it is simple.
SPEAKER_00:And I tell guys now that are in early into treatment and they're worried about that. I'm like man just sh show up honest and do what you say you're gonna do and and even like in respect boundaries like if they say hey I don't want you a part of this don't take it so personal where you have do you force your like just say okay if that's what you need you know that's that's what we'll do. And I will say the trust building process has probably gone faster in some ways than what I expected. And I also I have the mentality that it's a lifetime process. Like it's not like okay trust is built we're good now. It's like no part of living in recovery I mean your mother and I just had this conversation this morning on some things that I need to re-engage in my recovery it's not you're not done. Like I'm in a lifetime of recovery and a lifetime of building trust and a lifetime of showing up and being honest and I'm human. I'm gonna make mistakes I have made big mistakes in the last three years and times where I haven't shown up for you guys in the best way but it's you guys see my heart my honesty and my like I'm I'm gonna continue to show up and we're gonna continue to build the trust um I'm curious as you're talking I just had this other thought I know we're kind of off the script a little bit but one thing that when guys go through treatment and recovery one thing that comes up or at least came up for me was the shame of what what was real you know what I'm saying like what was true and what was you know and then the shame comes in of like man was my whole life just a joke or a show or am I was I was anything like as a as a daughter how did you how did you process through like you know here's this here's this my dad is supposed to be the one that never hurts me that protects me that keeps me safe you know we've had a we've had a close relationship always how did you reconcile like man this is this person is not who I thought he was did you have those thoughts of like do I even know who this person is and how do you like how did you and we've learned a lot about parts work with IFS through like there's parts of me that feel different things and you can honor those different parts but I'm curious from your seat how disorienting was it to be like do I have to get to know this person all over again or did you even feel that way?
SPEAKER_01:Did it did it change the way that you even reflected on your childhood and all that does that make sense yeah it definitely does um I think I think there is a mix of both like I don't think by any means was like my childhood ruined or like or like just because of what happened in our family crisis that well everything's out the window. Because I remember having conversations with mom of like it's not all or nothing you know like it is like there it's a mix of both of like there were some really real and special moments and like and we had like there's great memories and like close relationship and stuff like that. But there's also like the mix of like dysfunctional like just being a dysfunctional family codependency and addiction and stuff like that. So yeah I think I think yeah that's definitely like a mix of of both and I think I think too whenever you were talking it made me think of um how like how much how big of a deal it was for me whenever we FaceTimed or whenever we did a Zoom call after you read my impact letter.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah I wanted to talk about that something yeah go let's go there.
SPEAKER_01:And it was it was the first time I really talked to you like in a while. Like we had we didn't have any contact and so it was a really big deal to me and I was like watching for like the way that you were you know like I was looking for a difference and like and I was also looking for what was the same you know and like and I think just the way you were was just different like on the zoom call and I was like oh thank God like because it's like if you were the same I would have been like yeah kind of freaked out.
SPEAKER_00:Can you I this might be impossible but can you describe the difference because I think for me a lot of times when we go into treatment there is a systematic breaking down of our at least for me there was of my ego and my defenses and so there was there was transformative work that was happening early in recovery even just the first couple weeks for me was just getting me to a place where I would surrender to the process. So some of it happens and I don't see it. So I'm not asking here like fishing for compliments I'm just curious as far as what did you experience like what what was it? Because I a lot of times it happens and I don't know like I don't I don't necessarily know that felt that different yeah if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah definitely um I think what I noticed was I I remember there was always like this force about you of like it's hard it's hard to describe but it's just like like almost like a forcefulness. And it's not even like that it was bad. But I also but I noticed like a new like gentleness in you somehow of like and I think that's a big deal for my personality because I I tend to like I can just fly under the radar and I think It was a big deal for me to see like you weren't being super forceful about it. Like you weren't trying to like lead everything and like like control the conversation. It was like it was like both of us and the therapist that was there. Like it was like I don't know, it was just like a good like a newfound like give and take, I think. And like I the only word that I can find is like a gentleness. And like you were, I saw that you were surrendered. And like it I think that just changed.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. That's interesting. Well, for me, thanks for sharing that too. But for me, that there's definitely was a breaking of my will in like a healthy way that needed to happen. Of like, I don't, you know, I don't have to try to control everybody and everything. And that's that's part of the work that we do at Valiant, especially in the first 30 days, is you're just learning to not have to be in control of everything and not try to, you know, codependently manage everyone else around you, and even try to manage the therapist and in your treatment plan. And you know, when do you get to use your phone? I mean, everything, you know, you're kind of you almost go back to being a little kid again, where you're like, okay, I'm just gonna get in the van when you tell me, and I'm gonna go into the therapy room when you tell me. It's like, yeah, I'm gonna be on your schedule. And like, man, for some of us, we really buck that. Like, I really bucked that in the first little bit. Yeah, but then you get to the point where you actually start to find peace. And wait a minute, I can let go, and I don't have to be in charge of everything. I don't have to be in control. And man, that still is not my default. I mean, if I'm not doing well, if I'm not healthy, I will still get big and bow up, and like my default is not, but that's part of doing the ongoing work is getting back to a place of rest and peace and surrender and and all those things. Um, can we talk just a little bit about the impact letter? We I we don't talk about what you rent it, but I think it's helpful for people to know that there is a process that Valiant helps us work um specifically with family. Um, whether that's through a disclosure or whatever else, but there is a there is a process. You're not out there just trying to navigate how do I rebuild with the kids. Like we work a very intentional specific process, and part of that is the amends and impact letter process, and making amends is not just like, oh, hey, by the way, I'm sorry. It's like, you know, and there's a big part of this as a living amends, like we're just you know, the way you live is but there is an actual like impact letter that you write that all the kids wrote separately. And part of it is for me to feel and hear and experience the weight of the hurt. And so even before I make amends, it's like, hey, I need to sit with how this impacted Grace specifically, even different than the other kids. Talk about that process for you and writing that letter and what that was like.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, um, I definitely procrastinated that a little bit, um, just because it was just it's just difficult to address the hurt that you feel that I felt. Um but I I really leaned on mom. She was just like she kind of helped me of like don't just don't hold anything back. Like anything that you are feeling, like just you can put it in that letter and it's gonna be okay. Yeah. And I feel like that's that was a big deal to me of like regardless of like because me telling you how you've hurt me, like I was afraid that like okay, well, that's gonna hurt him, and then that's just gonna suck for me because I'm gonna feel all kinds of guilt and shame and stuff like that. But like realizing that like I can tell him my hurt and it's gonna be okay. Like that was like the biggest thing of like I'm gonna be okay if I tell him how I feel. Yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Well, because you've always been the the child that's wanted to kind of make the make peace.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like, hey, it's okay, it's you know, like, and even in your letter, there was still a lot of that. I mean, there was a lot of hope in your letter still, like, here's what I hope for you, and here's what I you know, and so it was, you know, but I think it was really healthy for you to kind of be able to lay it out there. And it was honestly great for me because I I needed to feel it. Like, and then the gr the beauty of it is when we get our impact letters, we can then take it to our group. So I'm not I'm not alone in it. I can take it to the guys in my group in therapy. And I I read them all of y'all's letters and just sat with it. And they didn't try to like make me feel better necessarily, or they didn't try to like fix it, but there was an attunement. There was like, man, I I feel sadness with you, or I feel like carried it with me. And it was okay. Like I didn't have to fix it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It was like, okay, grace is hurting now. Let me go fix it. It was like, no, I can just I can sit with this and I can feel it, and I can, and then that can actually lead me to because a lot of a lot of addicts like myself really struggle with empathy. You know, and it's one thing that we have to like sit with it for a while and allow ourselves to feel it before we go fix it, because man, I I need to feel the empathy. Like, oh man, this was this was rough, this was traumatic, this was really painful. And before I get to an amends or an apology, I really got to sit with that, with that, that hurt, you know, and that that was really, really important for me. I want to talk a little bit about just the impact it had on your identity and you as a person. How do you think walking through this crisis through this season has shaped you as a person, uh, for better or for worse?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. Um I think it was it was really important that even though it was one of the most difficult things our family's ever been through, um it shaped me in a way that like nothing could. Um I think especially like figuring out who I am, um like apart from my family and like our like family dynamics, that was a huge thing for me to learn um of the person that I'm becoming. Um it helped me it helped me realize that I am a lot stronger than I think I am. Um and I think it helped me also realize like I have more c more courage than I think I do. And it just helped me, it helped me see the ways that like I can overcome things. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's awesome.
SPEAKER_01:And and of course, like this is an ongoing journey, like this isn't like it's a it's like the path of recovery. But yeah, I think it's like it's almost like it helped to like lift the curtain or like lift like the veil over the eye like my eyes of like this is like this is reality, like this codependent, dysfunctional way of living, like this this doesn't have to be the way that our family or like I have to live anymore, you know, like in walking in that like in that freedom, in that hope. Because I I mean even in that impact letter, like there was I I had hope for our family, and like I I believed that, and so and I trusted that we were surrendered like to the process of it, um, and we're still like learning and navigating everything. But I think for me, it was just like I don't know, like I just it just grew me in ways that I couldn't have without it, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, which is kind of hard to explain to people who haven't been through it, because man, as a dad, husband, whatever, I mean, uh if there was any other way, I mean, there's there's I don't think I'll ever be able to say, man, I'm so glad that that happened, but mostly because of the hurt it caused people that I love. And what's also true that I don't really know how to fully reconcile is I don't know how I get to where I'm at today without walking through some sort of pain and crisis, something that formed me and shaped me, or how Richard Rohr talks about the being the second half of life, like that we're living in now, was such an eye-opening experience that I don't know what would have gotten my attention enough. And it took me walking through something like that. Again, I I don't want anyone to hear me say that I'm I'm glad it happened by any stretch.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_00:But I also have to acknowledge that I don't know how we get to where we are today without some kind of something that exposes us to the pain of life, the realities of life, that wakes us up, that gets us out of the unhealthy broken system, that puts us on this new trajectory, and where we're living with a tolerance for reality now, a tolerance for pain, a tolerance for like things happen and we can cope in healthy ways. We don't have to use things to hide and to escape our feelings. And it it does make me grateful and also grateful for I mean, I don't know if you're willing to share, but a big part of what you want to do with your life. Yeah. And I don't know how much that because you were already wanting to do something, you know, along these lines, but I don't know how much you're willing to share just about how this situation has shaped kind of how you want to show up even vocationally and professionally with your life.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, definitely. Um, I know we've talked about um the portable sanctuary of um I know Chip Dodd talks about that. Um and that's definitely part of like a huge part of what makes me want to do what I want to do, which is um I want to be a counselor for kids um in families, and um and I know I want to specialize in a couple of like other things too. Um but yeah, I think what I've been through in like what our family has gone through of like in the people that have walked with us through what we've been through, like I now want to be that for other people, um, specifically kids too, and like giving them um the space and a voice and um just a safe place in a secure place. Um because I know like there were moments where we were going through what we were going through as a family and I didn't feel safe or like I didn't feel that security and I didn't feel like like who like who's reaching for me like in this moment? Like who like who actually cares to like sit with me and like let's figure this out, like let's let's find a path. Yeah, and I will I want to be that for kids. Of like I I feel like I've always thought like I I want to reach for the kids who feel unreachable. And so I that's a big part of like what I want to do, of like and I'm sure there's like there's more to like learn and unpack about why I want to do what I want to do. Sure. Um, but um yeah, that's just like the the heart behind it.
SPEAKER_00:I love it, I love it. And if that's what you choose to do, I mean you would be so great. I mean, you're so amazing at just you're a great listener, but also you've got such wisdom, and you get that from your mom. I mean, just uh discernment and wisdom, and it's uh really beautiful to to watch and see. And I'm I'm curious as we kind of wrap up, um, and thanks by the way for sharing this. I mean, this is it's actually really helpful for me to like go back and hear and and review. I I know for me it's easy for me just to like you know bust off the rear view mirrors and pretend like the past doesn't exist, but man, it's so good for my recovery to go back and to kind of relive. And I and I even when I go back to to Valiant and and visit and work there, it's so good for me to be back. It's like sacred ground for me to be there and be like, man, this is where it's kind of where it all began, you know, the second half of our life. But when you look back at or when you look at our family now, what what feels different now versus before? What what feels healthier? And it's okay, I'm not fishing for an answer. It's okay if it doesn't. Like you, you know, I'm just I want your honest take on how's our family different now than it was before August of 2022?
SPEAKER_01:Um I think I think we're just willing to acknowledge the mess. Like I think that it's like we were willing to talk about the ways that we are dysfunctional. Whereas like in the past, like I don't think I don't think we would have recognized it or like would have been willing to talk about it. So I think that's like kind of like the way that we're starting to grow of like we're willing to like actually talk about how we're actually feeling and being honest about that, talk like sharing like what we need. Um and like just being just being honest with each other and um just about like how we are dysfunctional. Um and honestly, like it is kind of funny, like before I thought like, oh my gosh, we're we're all like fine, like we're doing great, but now it's like oh my gosh, we're such a mess. Like I feel like we're more of a mess now than we were before. Um but I think it's good because it's like but you can see it, like yeah, you see where it it is messy and letting it be messy because like we're not we're not getting it right all the time, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Like, yeah, yeah, willing to face and confront. Well, I'm trying to remember exactly I'll bot botch it, but what Jake, uh Dr. Jake Smith, who was just on the podcast, he we were doing a family session with him a couple weeks ago, and he was talking about the difference between a dysfunctional and a functional family. Do you remember that? Yeah, and I forget it, maybe you remember better than me exactly what he said, but basically, dysfunctional family, the only difference is you're willing to embrace and address the dysfunction. Yeah, there's really no such thing as a a functional family, it's just the ones that are willing to actually do the work and basically embrace that word dysfunction. Did I get that right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, that's the gist of it. Something like that. Close enough.
SPEAKER_00:How's our relationship changed in the last three years? You know, is it the same? Is it better? Is it worse? What would you how is it different?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, it's definitely changed as I've gotten older and like I'm becoming an adult. Um we we've kind of like talked about like how like yes, I do need parents. That's not what I'm not saying. I do need parents, but I need less of a parent and more of like a friend, or like more of like a guide, I think, of like helping to like lead the way, I think. And I think like that's what our relationship is becoming. Um in like you are a person that I can lean on, and it's like what what I thought about you whenever like you were in treatment is like not what it was, like you are a person I can trust and lean on, and like that's such a big deal, like with everything that our family's been through, you know, and like not taking that for granted, yeah. And like, and I can be honest with you too about like how I'm feeling, yeah. Because I remember like we had a conversation whenever we were in Colorado, and like just had an honest conversation about like blind spots and like just like sharing my heart with you, and like that was just that was a big deal of like we're like I'm so grateful that we're talking about this, and he wants to talk about this, and like it's just really it's really good. Yeah, of course, we're still like learning and figuring things out, and I I feel like we have been saying throughout this episode, like it's a path, and yeah, it's messy and we're figuring it out, but yeah, it is like it is a good time of like growth, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's clunky, but this chip says it's clunky is about as good as it gets. Like you, you know, it's it and I'm grateful, grateful to be on this path. I'm grateful, I'm grateful for you and just for your mercy and your forgiveness and your your willingness to do the work. I mean, I know a lot of people that I've seen in treatment, you know, just don't have the gift of a family that is willing to do the work. And it's part of why I want to do this episode with you because I want I want people to hear that, man, hope and restoration and reconciliation, all those things are possible. It is possible to have that. Um, you know, and not that we're not, we're definitely not putting our family on any kind of pedestal or any kind of like, you know, we are just feel so fortunate to be where we are because there's a lot of people help carry us, you know, and a lot of people at Valiant help carry us through this season and become like family to us. Melissa, Uncle Dan, and Peyton. I mean, just go let you mention Jill, just you know, go down through the list of all the people who showed up for our family in huge ways that have become like family to us now. But I'm just so grateful for you and so glad that we're able to have this conversation and that our relationship gets to continue to grow. Like it's not like you know, hopefully three years from now we could have this conversation and it feel even different. And we're still doing that. But so so grateful for you. We we named you appropriately, Grace Abigail. Abigail, my father's joy, and you are my joy for sure. I love you so much. I'm so proud of you. Um, final word to uh um families that are listening. Maybe it's a college student or it's parents of a college student that are walking through the dark night of the soul.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's like, man, I is there hope for me? What would you say is a final word?
SPEAKER_01:I think I think I would encourage to just show up however you need to, as long as it's honest. I think that's like the biggest thing of like you can be like angry and like you can be afraid and you can be sad and like all the feelings. I think it's important and I encourage to like show up in that and like trust that it's gonna be okay. Because I think that's what I really needed to hear of like someone just to sit with. Maybe like it's okay. Like you are going to be okay. And like you can feel and like it it is not gonna fall apart, you know, and like that was like a big thing for me. So I would encourage like especially young adults and kids in college like to show up however you need to, and like trust that like the the I guess just trusting that um the person that is doing the work in your life is like they have the tools to like be okay with how you're feeling, as long as they're surrendered to the process too.
SPEAKER_00:Man, how special was that? And I I can't help but just feel like the most blessed, blessed guy in the world. And you know, a big part of this episode is just to give hope, you know. As I said in the episode, Valiant is about bringing families back together. And the the truth is there's there's absolutely nothing special about our family, um, except for the fact that we use what what I learned at Valiant called provisional trust. We had some great people in our life that we chose to trust, and we just worked the process. We showed up every day trying to be as honest as we could, respecting one another's boundaries, and um man, it's just amazing what can happen. It's just been a little over three years, and so um, man, I don't I don't take any credit for myself. I feel extremely humbled when I when I uh have a conversation like that with my daughter and grateful for for my wife and for the rest of my family who have been patient with me, have shown me mercy and forgiveness, but have also done their own work. And so we hope you're encouraged. Again, I'd I'd encourage you to go to ValiantLiving.com slash episode 53, and that's where you'll get a resource on there where we kind of help you if you're a college student or young adult, or maybe you want to send it to someone who's in that age bracket that is struggling or wrestling with a parent who's going to treat them. So, with that said, man, we've got some great episodes lined up this year. I can't wait to bring them all to you. Every other week we drop a new episode, and again, if we can serve you and your family, go to Valiant Living.com. Until next time, let's keep showing up on us, and thanks so much for listening.
