Valiant Living Podcast
Welcome to the Valiant Living Podcast where we educate, encourage, and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom.
Valiant Living has been restoring lives and families since 2017 by providing multiple levels of care for men and their families. Fully accredited by The Joint Commission, Valiant Living has earned a national reputation as a premier treatment program, offering IOP, PHP, and recovery housing programs for men ages 26 and older. Founder and CEO MIchael Dinneen is a nationally recognized therapeutic expert, speaker, and thought leader in the behavioral health field.
On this podcast you’ll hear from the Valiant team as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at (720)-756-7941 or email admissions@valiantliving.com We’d love to have a conversation with you!
Valiant Living Podcast
Betrayal, Boundaries, and Healing: One Partner’s Recovery Journey
The path through addiction and betrayal trauma isn't linear – it's messy, painful, and often seems impossible to navigate. In this raw and honest conversation, we sit down with a spouse whose husband went through the Valiant program to hear the story from her perspective.
She doesn't hold back as she describes life before treatment: the exhaustion of overfunctioning, the unpredictability of living with active addiction, and the constant fear of the next discovery or disclosure. For nearly a decade, she weathered cycles of betrayal, attempted repair, and eventual relapse that left her emotionally depleted and uncertain about their future.
The turning point came when she reached her limit and delivered what she now recognizes as "loving leverage" – he needed to leave their home, either for treatment or permanently. This boundary, while painful to establish, became the catalyst for profound healing on both sides. While he worked through the Valiant program, she embarked on her own parallel recovery journey through therapy, support groups, and intentional self-care.
What emerges from her story isn't just survival but transformation. She discovered strengths she never knew she possessed, gained confidence in setting boundaries, and learned to separate the addiction from the man she married. Today, their relationship features healthier communication, quicker emotional repair, and a vocabulary that allows them to navigate triggers without escalation.
For spouses currently drowning in the chaos of addiction, her message offers a lifeline of hope: you're not alone, healing is possible, and the work – while incredibly difficult – is worth it. By recognizing that neither person chose this struggle and that both are battling the same enemy (addiction itself), couples can find their way back to connection, trust, and a relationship that's healthier than it's ever been.
Have you experienced betrayal trauma in your relationship? What boundaries have helped your healing process? Connect with us and join our community of people walking similar paths toward recovery and rebuilding.
If you or someone you love is struggling with addiction, you don’t have to face it alone.
Valiant Living helps men and their families move from crisis to stability through clinically driven care, community, and hope.
Learn more about our programs at www.valiantliving.com
or call us confidentially at (720) 796-6885 to speak with someone who can help.
Ellie, thank you so much for being on the Valiant Living Podcast.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, you're welcome. I'm glad to be here.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. We um around the the the Valiant team, we've been thinking about who who could we invite to be on the podcast who would be brave enough to come on and share parts of their story, you know, to be able to help other spouses who are going through similar things. So I just want to say first of all, thank you so much for for being willing to to jump on and and to do this. And I we have a lot of family members and spouses of guys who are valiant that listen to this podcast. And so I know just hearing parts of your story is going to bring a lot of a lot of hope and healing to them, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, well, uh thanks for inviting me. I'm glad to be able to, you know, share what I've what I've been through and what I've learned because, you know, I'm kind of at that point where it's you know, the part of my healing is that giving back.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful. Well, I'd love to just kind of to jump right in. I mean, I'd love to know what what life was like for you before. And so the the the assumption we're making here is that your your husband went through the Valiant program. And I'd love to know just what was life like before before Valiant for you.
SPEAKER_04:Sure. Um it was stressful, it was hard. Um, and I didn't, you know, I I knew that there was some addiction that was in our lives. I knew that much. Um, but I didn't know really what to do about it, and I didn't know the depths. Um and I I knew that I was I was exhausted that I was somehow kind of overfunctioning to keep everything together. Um, you know, whether that was me just making sure that, you know, I was doing everything for the kids and the house. Um, I also do work full-time. So, you know, it was kind it just kind of thought, okay, this is life. Life is exhausting and it's hard and it's tiring. Um and, you know, and then then there would be instances where I could tell that addiction was kind of rearing its head in my life um and my relationship and my family. And um it it was just really kind of unpredictable and chaotic. I would say kind of in the in the immediate months leading up to um my husband going to Valiant, um I would probably call it kind of like walking on eggshells. Um and yeah, and then I just I finally we finally got to the point where um I I realized that I don't know what life looks like either out of my marriage or without my husband or separated, um, but it's gotta be better than the way that we're living right now. And so I I finally kind of reached that point and was like, you know, it where I said, you need to you need to go somewhere, whether it's out of this house or whether it's to treatment.
SPEAKER_00:So you were the one that kind of called the timeout and was like, hey, this gotta something's gotta change.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it was me. Um, but I will say it was after a very long time of um coaching by my therapist.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Um yeah, so you know, we've been we we had been fortunate in that um both my husband and I for years had been seeing our own CSATs, um, which I know is a little bit atypical. I know a lot of um individuals and spouses who are coming to Valiant, they're you know, kind of right in the beginning. They don't have a CSAT, um, certified sex addiction therapist, I believe it stands for, um, someone who's like really trained in that that type of trauma. Um you know, so we we were lucky that we had those resources already on board. Um, and it was kind of at their um, you know, and they communicated with each other. Um you know, they had kind of a working relationship, and um, you know, it kind of got to the point where they both were seeing something more needs to happen because we're not getting anywhere. Um and they were actually the ones who recommended Valiant. Okay. They um my therapist told me that um that of all of the ones that she was aware of, and she's been doing this for a very long time, she right, she was the one who recommended Valiant because she saw that Valiant's doing the best work.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. So how I'm I'm curious, how long into your marriage did this really start to manifest where you noticed like, hey, something's off, something's not quite right? Was it from the jump, or was there a season of marriage where you felt like okay, things and then so and then something shifted? I'm just curious, when did you start sensing something was was amiss?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so um I I would say I had my first discovery maybe about two years after we were married.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Um, and it was a complete and utter shock trauma betrayal. Um and but I was younger, I mean, you know, I was 26, maybe something like that. Um and you know, we fought about it, and he, you know, assured me that it was all good, you know, it wasn't gonna happen again. Um, and then we both kind of went into our own denial and swept it under the rug. Um, and over the years we kind of went through these cycles of then there would be another discovery. Sometimes it was a disclosure, but you know, sometimes it was a a lot of times it was a discovery, and then we'd fight about it. Um, and then we would kind of go back into this denial, or we'd like sort of try to treat, put a band-aid on it, think we were doing the right stuff. Um you know, and and I went through this for maybe eight or ten years, and you know, finally, after experiencing it enough, was able to see the cycle, see the cycle that we were in of something happening, whether it was discovery or disclosure, um, or maybe it wasn't even that big. Maybe it was, you know, just something like, you know, we got into a fight over whatever it was, right? But it was kind of all wrapped up in in these underlying issues. Um, you know, we'd get into a fight and then we'd kind of patch it up, kind of talk it through, believe, you know, I would believe that he was not gonna do it again or he was in full recovery. Um, and then we'd, you know, go for a bit and then kind of the bottom would drop out again.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. What what emotions were you feeling during those cycles, like just from your seat and your perspective? Like if you had to describe how you were feeling during that season, how would you describe it?
SPEAKER_04:I guess I would say um deb you know, definitely fear. Like once it once the bottom drops out or the other shoe drops, or you know, whatever phrase you want to say, once that happens, um, you know, that that trauma is there and that trauma is rid of. And you're kind of always going to be on the lookout for it. Um, you know, even if you think things are going really, really well for a really long time, um, there, you know, there was just always kind of that sense of but but what if what if it happens again? And then sure enough, you know, it did happen again. Whether it was a week later or a year later, it happened again.
SPEAKER_00:So it just confirms your fear. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. Um, and you know, and wrapped up with that is you know, anxiety, then you know, depression of what do I do? What do I do? I'm married to this person. Um, like that's a you know, that's a big deal. It's not like we're still just boyfriend and girlfriend just walking away, you know, then we had when we threw it kids into the mix. And yes, it's a lot of feeling of just kind of uncertainty, not knowing what to do, what's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_02:Sure.
SPEAKER_04:Um yeah, and uncertainty is not a good way to live your life.
SPEAKER_00:No. Well, not at all. And and that's and that's why I'm just so curious about this, because I think there's just a lot of lot of people, a lot of partners listening to this that might be in that that season right now, which is just like, we've got so much fear. I don't know what's I don't know what's actually happening. They've not gone through like not just the healing, but the education that you've gone through now. So a lot of it, there's just so many unknowns too, I would imagine. Like, you know, you mentioned having your own CSAT. So you had some probably language and context for some of the things that were happening, but a lot of a lot of our people coming in the program, families, this is brand new. It's brand new information, brand new, like all of it is is so new. And you mentioned earlier about just thinking, hey, this, I can't keep going. Was there a was there a certain moment? And I and I'm just curious around the just the the days or even the week around him leaving for treatment, you saying this isn't sustainable anymore. What was kind of going through your emotions at that point? Was it just like enough is enough? Or I'm just curious what led you to the point to be like, hey, we got to ratchet this up. There's another level of treatment that's needed here.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, um it I would say it really mostly was enough is enough. Um I get, you know, I guess where my emotions had shifted from either fear or sadness to just anger. And I've you know, I've always I've it's always been very hard for me to get really mad and like yell or get, you know, angry what I do, what I tend to do. And I suspect a lot of spouses who are listening tend to shut down, get quiet, withdraw. Um and you know, that's what I had been doing for so long to either keep the piece, to avoid confrontation. Um, and I just I really did just kind of reach my breaking point. There were enough of those instances where boundaries were crossed, um, you know, things were done that I had made clear I did not agree with. Um, and you know, it just kept happening and kept happening, and then it increased in frequency, um, such that I, you know, I just realized one day this something's gotta give. It's gotta get better than this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. How did he receive that when you went to him and said, hey, I think you gotta go? What was that conversation like? Because that had to be kind of scary to bring it up, right?
SPEAKER_04:Oh, yeah, it was bad.
SPEAKER_02:Did not go well. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. I mean, um, you know, he was just, you know, really, really in the furs of addiction. And, you know, it wasn't my it wasn't my husband I was talking to, I was talking to the addict. Um, and you know, and over the years, uh kind of if I can diverge a little bit from the question, but over the years, one of the things I started to see and be able to recognize because I'd lived it long enough, was I could tell there were times when I was talking to the addict and times when I was talking to my husband.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting.
SPEAKER_04:Just in the way he would respond or yeah, and it wasn't like, you know, I would say 95% of the time it's, you know, it was clear as mud, you know, I couldn't tell. But there were enough instances where I was like able to see, like, oh my gosh, you know, his brain is hijacked right now, like he's not listening, he's not present, um, he's clearly preoccupied with something else. Um, and so that's kind of, you know, when I had this conversation with him, I kind of knew like that's that's who's showing up right now is the addict. And so that's what I'm having to talk to and deal with. Um and you know, I think having that realization also really helped me and helped kind of fuel me to be able to lay down this boundary and ask him to leave. Um because I could kind of detach my husband and like the person I married and fell in love with from the addict.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. That's huge. And I I think that's I mean, a credit, a credit to you and the work that you had even done up to that point. But I think for a lot of people listening, that is something that they really need to hear. And I think sometimes it's like one of those things where you don't feel it, like your brain can know it, but it's really hard to like your emotions to feel it because it's like, well, I'm obviously looking at this person and the the same person, but right there's just so much great um science around the brain and what's happening in the attic brain and what's going on, like, and it does feel Jekyll and Hyde-ish sometimes. And the fact that you had kind of that realization served you, it seems like it served you well in that moment. But man, I would imagine a lot of people listening or watching are like, man, that's that might even be new information of like, man, I can tell something's off, but yeah, you really are talking to it's almost like you're talking to a different person.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, and yeah, I hope so. I mean, I I know, and as we've acknowledged already, so many of the spouses who are, you know, probably going to be listening to this are people who it's it's all very, very new. The initial trauma betrayal is very new. You know, they're still going through that like real pain. Um, they have not, you know, a lot of spouses don't have their own CSATs yet or, you know, have are in the very, very beginnings of working on their own recovery. Um and so, you know, I hope that over time um that can be kind of a tool or a way to a way to just approach and look at it. Um, because I, you know, I have found over the years that, you know, one of the things that helps has helped me in my healing is really being able to separate that addict piece because then sure you can get angry at the addict. You can have all of your feelings and everything at the addict in an addiction. Um, and it kind of helps protect that piece of you know, of like feeling angry at the person who you love.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and which I would imagine can feel so conflicting and complicated, where like I I'm angry at this, and and a lot of the work that we do at Valiant around parts work and IFS stuff too is is understanding like what you just said. Hey, I can I can actually have love and compassion for the part of the person who is a really amazing and beautiful human, the person I've fell in love with and wanted to be with. And I can also be extremely angry at the part of the person who is has this addiction. And I don't know, did you feel at first when you're when you're experiencing that? Because I know I, you know, it feels like, am I going crazy? Am I am I like what what's going on? Because it feels even when I say it out loud, you're like, what are you talking about, parts and all this kind of stuff? But it it makes sense down the road, but at some time you're it almost feels like maddening. Like which which person am I talking to? How do I decide? All that kind of stuff. Was there ever a moment where you're like, I don't even know which way's up in this? You know, I'd imagine people listening to this would feel that way.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, yeah. I mean, it's you know, we one of the words that you kind of learn in recovery is gaslighting. And maybe people know it beforehand. I feel like it's becoming more of a you know mainstream um word these days.
SPEAKER_00:Um I'm hesitant to use it, but I'm like, but it's it's real. Like I I was I did that in my addiction. That was part of it, you know.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, but I feel like you know, addiction is the ultimate gaslighting, right? Not especially if you're thinking about trying to parse out who am I talking to right now, the addict or the right, you know, the man or the person. Um, yeah, it is for crazy making and making you question yourself and everything you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And part of I I've heard a lot of people share this sort of wonder for you this way, though, or like some of it in going to treatment, part of the healing is realizing that you weren't crazy in some of the things you were feeling and sensing. Did you ever have any of those moments?
SPEAKER_04:Um, yeah. I mean, I I think that um the only way to that I was able to feel, you know, normal and okay and validated um was getting connected with other spouses who were going through the same thing. Um because I just I no one really understands the what betrayal is and feels like um betrayal trauma in this kind of context, unless you've you've been through it and you've lived a bit.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So it sounds like, and I don't want to make assumptions, but it sounds like you got to that point, this isn't sustainable. And with Danin, you've probably heard him say use the word loving leverage. So it wasn't like ultimatum-ish, but it but it sounds like that's what it came down to for you, right? It was like, hey, you have to leave. This wasn't like the conversation wasn't, hey, I think maybe, and if you want to, or whatever. It sounds like you had to draw a pretty strict, like, I'm done, this is done, unless you know, you go and get help. And again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you know, that's kind of what how you're making me feel. Like, this wasn't a let's talk about this. This was a boundary you set, loving leverage, because he went, even though the conversation didn't go well, he ultimately went. What did you have to do in to get him to that point to say, okay, I'll go?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Um, you're right. It it was pretty much an ultimatum. Um, you know, over the years, there had been other times where he kind of forced me to make ultimatums, um, not you know, to that extreme, but I kind of knew that that's just the way, you know, probably was the addict, um not really willing to make any changes or accommodations until it was serious about something. Um and I guess I forgot what the question was.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'm just talking through the loving leverage or the ultimatum because Oh, yeah. Yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Um yeah, and so you know what it what's funny is that post-recovery, we were meeting with a new couples counselor and we were kind of telling our story. Um, my husband and I have slightly different interpretations of what actually happened.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, especially when the addict brain is in full control, we definitely recall things differently. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. And I was able, you know, when when we were at that point, you know, I kind of laughed about it and, like, well, that's not exactly how my that's not my story. His story's a little different. His story is a lot more of um, it was an ultimatum. Like she told me I had to go here. This is what I had to do.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Um, my story and perspective and memory of it is that it was more of a the ultimatum is you have to get out of the house. But what what you choose to do from there is your choice. I recommend you go to Valiant. I strongly recommend that.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_04:But if you don't, then you still definitely need to get out of the house.
SPEAKER_00:Gotcha. Well, and here's why I bring that up. And at least in our in my story, my wife, her courage to draw that boundary and use that loving leverage, I don't think I would have gone if she wouldn't have been that strong. And I know there's a lot of a lot of women out there that that may struggle with drawing that boundary. And I can, you know, to a certain extent, can empathize with that. But I just know I was lost enough in my addiction and thinking that I could figure my way out of it that if she wouldn't have given me, like, hey, listen, this is over unless you go and get the help that you need. And I knew for me, like, I was in for 90 days, and if I came home at 89 and a half, it was a deal breaker. Like, it was like, this is what has to happen, not even to like save our marriage, for us to even have a conversation about what the future might look like. This was where it had to start. And and I heard some of that in your story. And the reason why I want to bring it out is because, man, I am in hindsight, I am so grateful for that strength because I don't know that I would have had it in myself or given myself the gift of going if my wife wouldn't have set that boundary. And it sounds similar in in your case. I'm not I'm not so sure you know what your husband would have done.
SPEAKER_04:I think that's exactly right. Um, because anything less than that that I'd tried for a decade, you know, hadn't worked.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Right. Yeah. Walk us through. So he so he goes.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:What's what's life like for you when he enters into treatment?
SPEAKER_04:Oh, it was hard. It was really hard.
SPEAKER_00:Um did he go pretty much right after you had set the like, hey, you need to leave the house? Uh what was that a long time between that and leaving?
SPEAKER_04:No, it was it was pretty quick. I mean, we it probably it was within a week.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Um so yeah, so he left. Um, I was left home with two young kids and a full-time job. Um and I would say, you know, the I would say the first week, you know, and so in the week leading up to him leaving, um, it was bad. Like we were nasty to each other. You know, it was just bad. Um and so the first week after he left, I would say I was still just kind of fueled by anger. I was still just kind of running on anger fumes, and that got me through the first week. Um, and then in the preceding weeks, it was really interesting. You know, I don't remember exactly what order it happened in, but then I would say like the next week was it was a sense of peace because I was finally letting myself be able to realize that kind of the addiction chaos was out of the house. Um and there wasn't really other chaos going like it was just it was just calm, felt interesting. Um, you know, and then the next the week, the maybe like the third week after that, that's when the sadness kicked in. And that's when I was crying a lot more. Um, you know, feeling the kind of depression piece of basically I was going through all of the stages of grief.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And feeling them like week by week, the different emotions.
SPEAKER_00:So I what I'm hearing you say started anger, then a little bit of peace and relief. Man, I can breathe, and he's somewhere where I know he's safe, and you know, there's just all that. Well, I didn't actually hear you say that. So did you feel that way? Were you was it more just like, hey, he's gone, I'm not having to deal with it. Did you even care that he was somewhere that was safe at that moment? Or was that part of the piece?
SPEAKER_04:No, yeah. His his I would honestly say his directly in top of my mind.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'm glad I stopped myself. I was like, wait a minute, she didn't actually say that. I don't know that she cared that he was safe and had and out of that place. She might just be glad he's gone. I'm not dealing with it. Yeah, and then but the sadness, I think it's interesting to hear that like the sad part came later. Like that was that was kind of like step three in in feeling. Was that what was the sadness? Was it sadness just towards your situation, sadness about where you had found yourself? Or how would you describe that sadness?
SPEAKER_04:Um, I think it was it really was everything. It was sadness. Um, yeah, for base, you know, being a single parent. It was sadness for losing the person that I married.
SPEAKER_00:Um like uh this is not what I signed up for type deal.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. Um yeah, it was yes, and that I that he was just, yeah, he was gone. He wasn't I couldn't share things that were happening. Um, you know, couldn't share what was happening with the kids. I couldn't share what was going on with my day. Um, we were on no contact. Um, and it, you know, it was it was sad. It was kind of realizing like, what if I do end up alone? Is this what it's going to be like not having that special someone to share stuff with?
SPEAKER_00:Um well, and how uh you know, I've and I've I've got sadness coming up in me as you're sharing and applying it to you know my story as well. And it's just like that that has to be just so difficult of an experience because you're you're angry and you're hurt, and at the same time, this person that you're sharing everything with is is gone, and they're like the small details, it has to feel like a complete mind, just you know, you're just all torn up because it's like, what do I uh sounds like there was a like a longing, a miss, I miss and I want to whatever, but at the same time you're processing grief and anger and all that.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, that's a that's a wild emotional place to be in.
SPEAKER_04:It is, yeah, yeah. And trying to, yeah, work full time and get keep the kids on track.
SPEAKER_00:Um were there any were there any misconceptions or surprises or anything for you as you were walking through this process? Like I'm just curious, what are some of the things you were learning along along the way?
SPEAKER_04:You mean while he was valiant?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, just when after he left. I mean, was there anything that surprised you of how like what came up for you or what what you had learned or how you were kind of growing through this? I'm just curious what that process was like for you.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, um, I guess there were there were a few things that surprised me or were kind of realizations for me that I didn't have when you first went. The first one was that um was was that even I felt like the hard part was already over because I had taken all of I'd been dealing doing this for years, and then finally got to myself at a place where I put down the ultimatum, which was very hard for me to do, and got him out of the house, got him to treatment. And so I, you know, at first I was like, okay, the like the hard part's over. We're in this, we're in a calm house now. Um but But then I realized then I started realizing it was just a different heart. It was just a different heart of being a single parent, right? Um, but then I, you know, as we went through, it just became apparent to me like, no, there's still a lot of hard work to be done.
SPEAKER_00:Like we're just we're just getting started here, type thing.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. And that feeling got even more intense as he got closer to coming home from Valiant, where I it was dealing with the same feelings and emotions again of wait a second. Maybe the hard part is just beginning. The hard part of having to reintegrate into our lives together and implement the recovery that we've both been working on individually, like trying to make that work when it without you know the constant oversight of you know the therapist, the valiant.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. Like we're we just got to the starting line here, and now we're on their own, we're on our own. Yeah, I mean, that could feel overwhelming. I and I'm curious too, like when when he was there at Valiant, I I would imagine that a lot of times the spouses could could maybe feel you know overlooked or maybe even invisible from the standpoint of like, okay, now he's getting all this attention, he's getting this treatment, like he's at boot camp basically doing this stuff. And did you ever feel that way? How did you handle like, hey, he's there getting worked on? I'm here holding on the fort. I'm curious how you felt while he was there.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it was I I definitely identify with that feeling of kind of feeling like I was overlooked, I guess. Um not anything that like Valiant didn't do right, but just kind of the nature of the beast of the spouses at home are left with keeping all of the other balls in the air. Um you know, where beforehand, if my my husband, he could at least like drive a kid, you know, from point A to point B, you know, like just practically.
SPEAKER_00:It's another set of hands, and yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_04:Exactly. And so um, you know, there is there was that, and then wanting to know everything that he was doing all day long, wanting to know what I need, you know, I really want to know what breakthrough did he have in therapy today, or broke breakthroughs. I need to know all of them. Um and I and I couldn't get that. I couldn't get that information um because it, you know, it wasn't that there's breakthroughs every single day, and it wasn't that um, you know, it's not that that wasn't happening and there wasn't progress being made, but there was like nothing tangible that I could really, especially in the beginning, that I could really know because I felt like I needed that. Um, and then yeah, just to be at home um and kind of removed from what was going on. Um I uh there's one, it's it's not funny, it's a it's just a story about that kind of emphasizes how I felt um at one point when this was maybe a month or so in. Um, and my he was six at the time, I believe. My kid had just been diagnosed with both the flu and strep at the same time.
SPEAKER_00:Oh man.
SPEAKER_04:And um, I like couldn't get him to take his medicine, like couldn't that was a battle in itself. And like if he took his medicine, then he would throw it up. But because he didn't like taking medicine, you know, it was it was really bad. And at some point, I just pulled out my phone and um I located my husband's phone because we shared locations and saw that his phone was at the base of a mountain, a ski mountain.
SPEAKER_00:You're like, what is he on a ski retreat? And I'm here, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. And it was like the you know, the same day, the same time. Um, and you know, that just really kind of sent me reeling of of how it highlighted um how you know, I know he was, you know, with the valent group, he was doing work, he was you know on an excursion with Melissa. Um, but to me, it just looked like he was just being in Colorado while I'm home, you know, with my kid who has flu and strap at the same time.
SPEAKER_00:And I can imagine a lot of people could absolutely relate to that feeling who have had you know people that men have got that have gone to Valiant because you're exactly right. I mean, that's part of even going to to Colorado and being in the beauty, like so much of the healing happens in nature and on you know, these experientials, all these different things. And even the Valiant team, now that I'm kind of on this side of it, we actually try to be careful because it can look like what are you at, just some like, you know, camp retreat, you know, whatever. We know now, like, man, some of the most healing work happens in these experientials and excursion, like a very intentional. And even Dr. MD would say the the reason why we can go deeper with some of these guys is because our program offers some of these experiences where you know they have a place to exhale and breathe. But absolutely, when you got a sick kid at home, right? You're like, if you're just out there skiing, you know, I could use some help, you know, type type. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and I mean, intellectually it that that totally makes sense. I mean, nature, I agree, nature's healing. Um, but yeah, when you're not thinking about it that way, you're just kind of a betrayed, traumatized spouse and the throes of it at home. Um, that doesn't really matter.
SPEAKER_00:Totally. Well, so so for um for you when when he's there going through this, something that I just had Brooke um Donahue on the podcast, and she leads one of our family support groups. And she um had this concept of parallel recovery that she talks about with um spouses and and family members, all that stuff. But so I'm curious, what did what did your healing look like? You know, even getting to the place of surrendering some of those things, like, hey, he's there, I'm not gonna be able to get all the information I would like to have. At some point, I gotta kind of surrender, let go, let him do his own work, and I gotta I gotta heal and I gotta do my own work. What was that journey of like that parallel recovery for you? And how did you start? Well, I shouldn't say start because you had been doing your own work for quite some time, but in this season, what did what did that healing look like for you?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so I I'll start by saying I think I like that term parallel recovery, and I think it's absolutely necessary in order for us to you know still be married today. Um and the way that I kind of like to describe it is that when he left for Valiant, I was so kind of maxed out and at my limit, um, you know, or like my baseline was like eight or nine every day of just if something, if he does something wrong, or if he forgets something or says something, like I'm I'm pushed over my limit. I'm you know, I can't handle it anymore. And as he was gone at Valiant, and as I had did my own healing and recovery during that time, um, which which started with what I felt was very necessary, which was no contact for I think we went maybe like 30 or 40 days. Um like I'll talk more about you know, kind of at that process, but yeah, by the by the end, um, you know, once he got home and we were reintegrating, because I had had this the space to recover myself, like my tolerance level, it was it was way back down. It was maybe a three, three or four, such that when he got home and he's trying really in earnest to implement his recovery and everything he's learned at Valiant. Um, I had I was able to have more grace and extend that to him, you know. For example, if he did something that wasn't perfect, because beforehand I was I was looking for complete perfection from him because I was consistently not getting it because the addict was just derailing everything. So whether it was forgetfulness or not being present, not paying attention, um, I just I just never got it. So any little mistake put me over the edge. But through my healing and recovery, I was able to really realize and learn nobody's perfect, I'm not perfect, he's not perfect. Um, and so I could have more space to give him a little bit more grace. And I think I would I would guess um that he would say that that also helped him further his recovery because he knew that um he could still be human and make a mistake, right?
SPEAKER_00:Right. Well, and it probably helped because my next question is just around like when he when re-entry and him coming back home. Um it probably helped you guys re-enter closer to the same place. So here's where I'm getting at. You know, we go away for 30, 45, 90 days, sometimes a lot longer, depending on the situation. And we're in this like intensive, you know, therapeutic environment where that's our whole lives for that season is all about getting better in therapy. And then, you know, we come home, and sometimes there are spouses or family members that haven't done any work, and so that's like there's this huge gap, you know. We're coming home super pumped of all the stuff we learned and we're different, and all these aha moments. And it's really, I mean, 90 days sounds like a lot, but it's kind of a blip on the radar of life, especially the further away you get from it, you're like that that's especially if you've been an addict for a good 40 years, 90 days is not that long to course correct some of these behaviors, you know. And so I'm I'm wondering, was that helpful as you were doing your own work in this parallel recovery? Was it helpful in the re-entry that you guys at least were starting in similar places, or was there still a gap that you experienced of what he had learned and been through versus what you've had the time? Because again, you're with kids and working and you can't devote your whole life to recovery at that moment. So, what was that re-entry like?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think um I think it we were a little bit more even for sure, but not like I still had perhaps more that I needed to do. I mean, you know, he did as well, but um, you know, during the time that he was gone, I um was seeing, I saw my therapist once a week. Um, I was attending um the partner support group through Valiant um once a week. Um, I had one or two um local connections of of women who, because I'd been dealing with this for a while, who had been through similar things. Um, and so you know, people I would meet up with for coffee. Um I one book that really helped me was The Betrayal Bind by Michelle Mays, um, which had I think it had recently come out. It was pretty new what my husband was going through. That was kind of it was that was like a a book of someone who gets it, yeah. Um that I read at night and before I went to sleep and you know felt like I'd been heard. I did um one, you know, and then I just um also really tried to focus on um my own kind of just well mental health and well-being. So I really took time to kind of prioritize if if I had some spare time to really prioritize what's gonna be good for my mental health right now. Like what what do I really need? Do I need to just turn on the TV and watch a 30-minute sitcom? Is that what I really need? Um, or is it do I really need to journal? Um, and so really trying to be like intentional about those little moments of time because again, there were not many of them.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Right.
SPEAKER_04:There still aren't, even though my husband's back because the kids are older and busier and all of that.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'm sure there's times you just wanted to veg out and not do anything. I mean, it's just like, hey, I just can't, I don't have any more brain capacity to deal with stuff, you know, which is completely reasonable. It was there anything that you that you discovered about yourself through all this that you feel like maybe you wouldn't have found out if you wouldn't have walked through this level of whether you call it pain or whatever it might have been? I mean, do you feel like and I know that even asking that question, I I don't love the question, but was there anything that you discovered or you learned about yourself that you're like, man, I would never have known this otherwise?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, real I think the biggest thing for me was probably my confidence in a in a few ways. I mean, so you know, having experiencing betrayal trauma can shake your confidence in so many ways. First of all, um, whether it's, you know, confidence about your physical appearance or confidence about you know what you can trust or not trust. Um but I where I really gained confidence was in like two areas that I like to talk about in terms of recovery. One was that just knowing that I could do it, I could be that single parent and get all the things done and survive. And like I could I could do it. And so I knew moving forward that no matter what happened with my marriage, um, although I still wanted it to work out, that the unknown wasn't as scary because I basically did it for three months. Um, and so I kind of I like know now and I'm more comfortable that I'll be okay.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Um yeah. And then the the other piece of confidence that I gained from it was um confidence in setting boundaries for myself. Um, because you know, the I would say kind of the ultimate boundary and when it all started was when I said you've gotta get out of the house. Um you can either go to treatment or go somewhere else, but I need I need this space protected. Um and then, you know, after that boundaries as I continued to lay them down, so you know, the next one was I need to go no contact in the beginning of Valiant, and that worked well for me. Um and you know, I I kept kind of setting these boundaries, and then it worked and it helped me. And so it almost was like I got momentum on being able to, you know, have have these bound set boundaries and like keep going with it. And so I kind of gained some confidence in that.
SPEAKER_00:Wait a minute, I I think I like boundaries. I think boundaries where else could I set a boundary? This is fun. Well, I do think, and and that's one I'll just mention it because you did. Um a lot of people I know that have gone to Valley have really struggled with the no contact thing or no phone, or like, you know, I did a digital detox for I think it was 45 days. I can't remember exactly how long, 30 to 45 in there. That's really tough when you're trying to, like you were saying earlier, when you're trying to like control and know and whatever, like it's it can be very difficult. Um for sometimes it's not difficult at all. I mean, like you're saying, sometimes there's anger involved. You're like, listen, just go away. I don't want to hear from you. But I I've heard a lot of people saying that, but man, taking that intentional kind of therapeutic break can be so powerful in relationship early on because you're I don't know, there's just still so much clunkiness and knowing how to communicate, what to communicate. And I know at least in our in our stories, like there's things that could be said that's hurtful and unintentional, or even you know, before I got put on the detox, there was things I was saying to the kids where I was just trying to get affirmation and different things that were kind of looking back on it to use Jill's word, it was gross. But I was just trying to, I don't know, I just didn't know what I was doing. I needed someone to like almost like a kid to put me in timeout and say, you know what, you're not talking to anybody for a season because you're doing more damage and it's good. And so hearing you say that, yeah, I think that's important for people to hear. Like that's that's not a punishment that actually can really be a lifesaver in a relationship to take a therapeutic pause for however long until you know how to actually talk to one another again. Did you experience that?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent, yeah. And um yeah, I I kind of feel like, I mean, I'm not the expert by any means, but I kind of feel like it shouldn't just be the standard, this the standard operating procedure that you don't get to talk to each other for the first month or whatever.
SPEAKER_00:Um I think it is, by the way, now I I don't I'm not sure, but I think they're doing it because I said that too. I was like, why are you even having these battles? I think everyone should just like no contact for 30 days and like no matter the circumstances, I think it's so it can be so healthy for a relationship. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, because yeah, like I really I needed that time. I don't think I would have had that time to go through the anger and the calm and the sadness. Um, like I described earlier, if I had been communicating with him. It would have still, even if it had been five minutes a day or even just text messages back and forth, like I still would have uh it still would have been like aggravating that how I had to talk about I was at like a nine already. Um, it wouldn't have given me the space to be able to come back down.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. No, that makes total sense. For and I just have a few more questions because this is again, I'm so grateful that you would share these parts of your story because I mean, it it's it's a lot, you know, and and grateful that you guys are in a place of healing enough where you could talk about it, you know, and that's I mean that that's a testament to the work that both of you are doing and have done and continue to do. But for the women listening right now who are who are just at the beginning, like back where you were, and they feel all the feelings. They're scared, they're tired, they're alone, they're fearful, all those things. Kind of looking back from where you're at now, what would you what would you say to them? Or what would even you say to yourself if you could go back and and have that conversation?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I guess I would say, you know, first of all, you're not alone. There are so many of us, it seems, that you know, are have been in this space before. Um sometimes betrayed spouses can be hard to find, but once you find us, you know, we kind of gotta stick together and talk through it to because I think that is kind of the biggest, one of the biggest pieces is just having others who've who've been through it. Um, you know, especially as I talked earlier about how when my husband was in treatment, that person who I wanted to share stuff with and was used to sharing stuff with was gone. Um, and then you know, I I needed someone who could or people who could understand what I was feeling and going through. Um, so you're not alone. And regardless of what happens, it does get better. Um you know, we we may not be able to predict the future. And you know, I my my husband and I were in a really good place right now. Um but I also know that no kind of know now that things could change. Uh I don't I don't want them to, and I don't think he does either, but I you know, I we don't know where we'll be in a year, five years, ten years. Um and that, but but kind of so much growth has happened from both with both of us, even though it sucked and it hurt and it was kind of the worst when we were in the trenches of it. Um and so I you know, I guess just if I could, you know, just offer kind of support and hope that it thing things will get better. If they're hard right now and they suck, um you know, no one no one chose this. Um you know, that can be hard to like I think that's kind of a a feeling that as a betray partner I definitely felt a lot was like I didn't ask for this. Um, and specifically I even asked not for this because I have kind of set down some things that I wouldn't tolerate in the very beginning of our relationship. Um, and then they were things that ended up coming up. Um like I didn't ask for it, but you know, my husband didn't ask for it either. Um, you know, and that's where that piece of recognizing that addiction is like its own thing and its own bad force in the world. Like no one asks to be an addict and no one asks to be a betrayed partner. Um and so you know, kind of having that realization kind of helped me also give give him a little bit more grace and kind of feel again like we were on the same team. You know, we're both trying to battle this this bad thing called addiction.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Um, but but it can be so hard when it's when you just when you're in the throes of it and it's just like, well, no, you betrayed me and you hurt me.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. Yeah. My my last question is is if you were if you could speak to the to the men. So my here's most guys that listen to this podcast, it's post Valiant. We don't have a whole lot of guys listening to the podcast thinking, yeah, maybe maybe I should try this recovery thing. Like you said earlier, it's like usually we get to Valiant with some sort of ultimatum or crash or crisis or whatever. So there's not a whole lot of people listening and just scoping out, should I go to to rehab, but we do have guys that are post-rehab alumni or whatever that are listening to this and they're they're they might be in the early stages of of re-entry and learning how to like show up again for their for their spouses. If you're talking to those guys who are in that season and they're experiencing maybe either a spouse who's who's not doing the work, maybe they are doing the work, but it's just not at the same pace, or there's just triggers that happen early on, and you're learning how to how to navigate big emotions and you know, like we said earlier, clunky, it's like learning to walk again, and you're tripping and falling all over the place and having to like learn how to forgive and offer like for the guys that are listening. Help us. How do we how do we in your experience, what's the best way for us to show back up into this environment and to help the healing process along?
SPEAKER_04:So I two two things come to mind. One is a kind of theoretical, hard to conceptualize um piece of advice, and the other is more practical. So I'll start with the the kind of the theoretical one is um is consistency. It's just doing what you say you're gonna do and yeah, and doing that day after day. Um and that I know that can be hard and fatiguing because uh you know everyone wants a break or doesn't want to be, you know, have to be held to these like standards, but the only way that I've been able to regain trust um or rebuild trust is that he is showing up. And you know, that means being present, that means listening to what I have to say. It doesn't mean solving it, it doesn't mean kind of being there but not like engaged, like seeing that you're actually engaged in what's going on with either what I'm telling you or the family life, um and doing that day in and day out is huge. Um the other thing that like that I've I've told guys before, um kind of practically speaking, is one thing that I think is really helpful is being able to, whether it's you create the time or you give the give whatever's needed to allow your spouse or your partner to be able to have the time to work on their own healing. So what you know, for example, practically speaking, one one way that showed up in my relationship was um there's a you know, a spouse's group that Jill leads on Wednesday nights from you know for two hours, certain time. And so I can trust and know that my husband, like he knows that every week that is his time, that he's got the kids. We don't have to talk about it every week, we don't have to plan it in advance. He just knows that I need that time that's important to me. And so I don't have to stress about, oh, did he forget that I have this tonight? We you know what I'm like he's feeding the kids dinner, he's doing everything so that I don't have any of that other like mental load.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And that and I know that that time is protective for me.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So I think kind of like practically speaking, if guys can also do that to build in that time for their spouse, I think that can go a really long way in helping helping them to heal.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. No, that's super helpful. I love that. I love the consistency part and I love the practical, like, you know, make sure that you're showing up and creating space so she can continue work on the healing. All right. My last question is this. And and thank you again for sharing. Gosh, this is like it's so miraculous to me. And I don't throw that word around lightly when people can walk through such pain and trauma, and there's so much hope realizing, like, hey, if you do the work, there's good things on the other side of some of these, you know, very difficult, some of the worst moments in in someone's life. And on that note, what is for those listening, what is what is restoration in a marriage look like, you know, after addiction, or even you know, what are some of the victories or like some of the things that you've had now in your in your marriage that may have not have had, or some of the redeeming things? And maybe there's there isn't any yet. We don't have to end with like a a bow on it, you know, it could just be it is what it is, but but um yeah, what's what's Kind of that the marriage restoration look like for you now?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, I I would our marriage is much healthier than I think it ever has been, um, because we both are healthier than we ever have been. Um you know, mentally, emotionally. I don't know, I don't know about physically.
SPEAKER_00:I'm that way. I'm like, let me let me get the emotion and mental down. I'm gonna I'll cross the physical bridge a little bit later. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Um but you know, I I there's nothing that it's nothing huge. It's nothing, well, it's nothing like significant of like this awesome story of whatever happened, but it's it's things that happen fairly on the right now. So um we have we now have better vocabulary that we can use when we are talking to each other. Um, one of the biggest things that helps kind of diffuse or disarm a heated situation is when one of us says, Hey, I'm triggered by XYZ. So whether it's by something you did or said, um, which is normally what it is, it's like, hey, when you said that, that really triggered me. Um like that's in our vocabulary now, and it it helps solve so many things.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. Um and the other person knows it kind of like gives space for that.
SPEAKER_04:Like Yeah, yeah. And it like it just totally changes the conversation from you know, whatever was like we thought the issue was and what it's being heated and upset to oh, let's kind of explore what happened there, and you know, maybe I can learn to reframe it better next time. I can't promise I'll reframe it better next time.
SPEAKER_00:At least I know, at least there's clarity around, you know. Well, for so many of us, we didn't we never verbalize when those things would happen. We just buried it down and let resentment or whatever build. And now that we can say, hey, time out, you know.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, exactly. And I and and on my side of it too, you know, I was the same way. I would just kind of shut down and let things build up. Um, you know, kind of on that point is like similarly, is that there's no well, there's I have fewer what I learned to be called emotional hangovers, um, where something something would happen and we get mad at each other. Um, and then even if it was kind of small, I could still carry that anger or just angst feeling around inside of me for like days.
SPEAKER_00:Um it's like the repair, the repair process is a gets quicker sometimes, it feels like, right?
SPEAKER_04:Exactly, exactly. And it's so much quicker now. It's a good way to put it. Um, you know, just like last weekend, I don't even remember what it was, something happened, and we were like, oh, we were bickering about um milk.
SPEAKER_00:As couples do, right?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And like trying to fit in, like how to get some milk and where we were gonna get milk because we needed some. And um, you know, and then I just left the room and then I came back in and we both just were like, I'm sorry I snapped at you. I'm sorry, you know, and then we just moved on. Yeah, and that that kind of interaction would have never happened pre-recovery. Um, it just it just wouldn't have. I would I know I would have been mad the rest of the day about, you know, why didn't he listen to me about the milk?
SPEAKER_00:Well, listen, thank you for this. This has been incredible. What an inspiration. And gosh, you guys have been through so much, but it gives it does give so much hope that there is there's healing to be had, you know. What I hear in your story is is a lot of hard work, you know, but there's also it it's it's worth it to get to that place of health and healing. So thanks for sharing, sharing with us today.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, again, thank you for having me. It's um I love to kind of, you know, it's healing for me too to keep talking about my story and what I've learned. So that's been good for me too.
