Valiant Living Podcast
Welcome to the Valiant Living Podcast where we educate, encourage, and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom.
Valiant Living has been restoring lives and families since 2017 by providing multiple levels of care for men and their families. Fully accredited by The Joint Commission, Valiant Living has earned a national reputation as a premier treatment program, offering IOP, PHP, and recovery housing programs for men ages 26 and older. Founder and CEO MIchael Dinneen is a nationally recognized therapeutic expert, speaker, and thought leader in the behavioral health field.
On this podcast you’ll hear from the Valiant team as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at (720)-756-7941 or email admissions@valiantliving.com We’d love to have a conversation with you!
Valiant Living Podcast
Breaking Free From Old Narratives with Michael Dinneen
Everyone carries internal narratives that shape how we see ourselves, others, and the world. These stories—often formed in childhood and reinforced through years of living—can either liberate us or keep us trapped in cycles of shame, fear, and self-doubt.
In this powerful conversation, Michael Dinneen and Drew Powell dig deep into how these narratives influence our recovery journeys. Dinneen vulnerably shares his ongoing struggle with a "younger son" identity despite 33 years of sobriety and significant professional success. "How much hustle I've gone into in my own life," he reflects, "has been this overcompensation for this kid that thinks he's unworthy and just messed up."
The discussion takes a transformative turn when they explore the parable of the Prodigal Son from a fresh perspective. In Western culture, we focus on the wayward son, but Eastern traditions call it "The Parable of the Running Father"—shifting attention to the parent who desperately loves rather than the child who strayed. This reframing offers a powerful metaphor for recovery: perhaps our healing comes not from fixing ourselves but from allowing ourselves to be seen differently.
Both men examine how our protective mechanisms—whether withdrawing completely or charging forward with excessive intensity—often represent polarized reactions to fear rather than expressions of our authentic selves. "Neither of those are really the essence of me," Dinneen observes about his tendency toward either isolation or aggression, "but I think they are me."
The conversation reveals that true transformation requires courage to question everything—our perceptions, reactions, and deeply held beliefs about who we are. The journey isn't about arriving at a destination where struggle ceases but developing a different relationship with our internal experience. As Dinneen powerfully concludes: "The alternative is you just keep reinventing a more savvy way to outmaneuver yourself...and it only lands you temporarily in the sweet spot."
Whether you're in recovery or simply seeking a more authentic life, this episode offers profound insights into breaking free from limiting narratives and discovering who you truly are beyond the stories you've been telling yourself.
Well, hey everyone, welcome to the Valiant Living podcast, where we educate, encourage and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom. I'm your host, drew Powell, and I'm a grateful alumni of the Valiant Living program. Valiant Living offers hope and transformational change to men and their families struggling with addiction and mental health challenges. So on this podcast you'll hear from the Valiant team, as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at 720-756-7941. Or you can email admissions at valiantlivingcom. We'd love to have a conversation with you, but for now let's dive into today's episode. Man, I'm so happy to have you back on the podcast again. Thank you, this is good. I love any time we get to talk and hang out. Man, you're running fast. So for people, that's an understanding. For people who don't know what you've been up to, man, give us a little Michael Dineen life update how you been, how you doing?
Speaker 1:Oh, I've been doing well, thank you. My mom had some health problems so I was back east with her and I'm grateful that I was able to do that and be with her and help my dad out. My daughter today's her senior luncheon how?
Speaker 2:does that feel, man? She's graduating.
Speaker 1:I don't even I think I've been going so fast, I haven't let it sink in. Yeah, I start crying, but I'm also super grateful because it's like I never even thought I'd get to be a dad. So, uh, the fact that I am launching this beautiful majestic wild um young woman and she's going to be going to panama she's first she's doing a missions trip in um nicaragua, but I get some time in with her. But so today's your senior luncheon. Two days from now she graduates and, uh, she's going to university of texas, austin, so she could be near her brother yeah, both kids in texas huh yeah we're getting a little time in with uh caden uh, because he's at a&m.
Speaker 1:he's at a&m but he has an internship this summer, so he's only only home for a couple of weeks and he's driving back down. So tonight we'll hang out as a family, but then we have a whole bunch of family coming in over the next few days and then I go back from my 35th Boston College reunion. I've never been back to a reunion, and for high school or college, but I just decided this time. I reunited with my cousin, carrie Dineen, in New York City a few months ago and she said you know why don't you show up? And I'm going to show up, but that's going to be trippy.
Speaker 2:That'll be crazy, yeah, we could talk about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yeah, because.
Speaker 1:I was blacked out in the 90s. So this is going to be a real. People are going to be like you're doing what? Well that? And yeah, it's just gonna be Twilight Zone-ish and then. So there's a lot going on, yeah, man, but I'm grateful for all of it. It's a little too busy, I think, right now, in that sometimes I'm like what week is it? What month is it? Things seem a little unsettled. So I love a lot of action, but I think sometimes it gets too much. But things will slow down drastically in June. Sure, and that was one of the things I was going to ask you about. It's like when you come back, we should do this, oh yeah, every time we get a chance, 100%, and then see if something really cool comes out of it. So then at least, at the very least, you and I get an hour in a month together talking about something cool.
Speaker 2:Well, because I forget. Whenever we're recording, I always forget we're recording and it's just like brothers hanging out talking and chatting.
Speaker 1:That's your gift and I love it. Yeah, it's so fun. That's your gift, cause I feel the same way. I feel it right now, where I get free therapy, so this is great.
Speaker 2:I just relate to a lot of what you talk about and what you say, and and one thing I love about us is like we'll sit down and we don't really have a direction. We're just like what's going on, what's what's coming up in you lately? What's going on and you were talking about we didn't even like pregame anything.
Speaker 1:We're just like you said.
Speaker 2:Hey, I had an interaction at the gym today. I think I want to talk about it. So I love it because you'll say stuff and I just get curious and I'm like, okay, tell me more about that, because and you said this before we start recording I want you to unpack it. But in a lot of ways we're not all that different. That's right, like we have. Of course, we have different stories, different paths that got us where we are, and I learned that here at valiant right, because I've told this a hundred times.
Speaker 2:But you know, I come in and I'm nothing like these guys. These guys are addicts, these guys, guys have issues, problems. I just got caught and now I have to go to, you know, therapy, jail for 90 days and all the ego, all the narcissism, all that stuff. And then by the end I'm like gosh, these guys are my brothers and I I'm the worst of them all, like there's, you know. But even in their different stories they're different, you know hurts, habits, hangups, addictions, whatever. We were way more alike than different. That's right, you know.
Speaker 1:And Wow, you're hitting on like big time, like where I think we're going to go today. Let's dive in, let's go for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, because of this whole, the stories we tell ourselves about others and ourselves and and the narratives and the belief systems that are all appropriate, and you just described a whole bunch before you came in oh yeah, before you came into treatment. This is not my crew, these are I gotta go to. And then what comes out of it. If you're willing, if you're in enough pain to actually open the heart up and have a different conversation inside yourself, you could end up coming out going these are my brothers, or you could end up coming out with the same solidified narratives about why you were there 90 days of jail.
Speaker 1:So I guess the question is going to be that's coming up for me is is at what point do we open our hearts to changing these internal narratives about the world and ourselves? Because even some of the ones that were correct at one point and saved our lives could be the obstacle to the next level of your soul development or your emotional development and your spiritual development and be in the way of your own happiness, and or there's just the next level of healing. But the way this all started, I was praying at the gym and I didn't really have anything. I was like I don't even know what Drew and I are going to talk about. We'll be fine because monotonous rambling.
Speaker 2:We're both talkers and we can fill the space, that's for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like monotonous rambling is still a defective character that I struggle with. So we will have no problem filling up. But but what I? I ran, run into this guy. He's a Jersey guy and he's been out here close to 90 days and it's an uncomfortable thing, cause I think I have like some form of body dysmorphia to begin with. So it's like we're in the locker room and he's a client and and he's in that phase of valiant where he's, uh, he's, he has a lot of free time because he's, you know, he's in that IOP phase and so he's there and it's good to see him. And he said something like I said how are you doing? He said I could see he's anxious. And he said I have a poly today, a polygraph for those that are listening and we do polygraphs.
Speaker 1:We send people out for polygraphs when there's been a fracture, when there's been infidelity or some sort of breach of trust in an area of relationship and intimacy. This is with his wife, in an area of relationship and intimacy, this is with his wife. And so, in order for him to do this disclosure of you know, they're going to get on a plane. Dan Meyer and him are going to get on a plane. They're going to go back, they're going to do this disclosure, I think tomorrow, and the disclosure he has to confess basically like this is what I've done, this is what you know, this is what you don't know. And in order for a betrayed spouse to be able to heal from betrayal trauma, they most of the time really need to know the facts about so they can actually know there's going to be no skeleton from the closet that's going to come back and they could start to heal, because it's all about trust. So can I trust this man? And so he has to pass polygraph before he goes back.
Speaker 1:And so he said you know I'm, I'm nervous, but automatically I just went into. You know, everything's relatable. So I said you know, when I, when I was in your phase of recovery, I went straight into 12 step, I didn't go to rehab. So I'm going to meetings and I'm I'm like taster's choice. Commercials were on at the time, it was 1991. And you know this dad and son talk on the phone. I start crying. I find out one of my best friends is dead. I feel nothing. I feel bad that I don't feel bad for that hour, and then or and or I'll flip into a, you know a rage and and you know, going down route nine in Boston for absolutely no reason because someone cut me off right, like there's this constant emotional swings, crazy dreams, you know violent, violent dreams, inability to really feel like the grounds, you know underneath you, feeling like people could see right through you. All these like a hundred different attributes of what we call post-acute withdrawal syndrome right.
Speaker 1:It's like something where the nervous system is trying to fight its way back Like wait a second. You're supposed to be smoking weed right now. You're supposed to be drinking. You're supposed to be at the bar. You're supposed to be dissociating. You're supposed to, you're not. You're not numbing me out right now. What's going on? And everything becomes dysregulated internally. Right, the brain has to recalibrate your emotions. You have to actually you know, in a lot of ways, act your way into a new way of life. What?
Speaker 2:do you mean? What do you mean by that? So?
Speaker 1:it's, it's not. You can't think your way into right living, but you can start to show up and your feet. I have a friend, ann Meese, who says my feet got me sober right. She just kept going back to the meetings, she just kept doing what she was told and her feet got her sober, not her brain.
Speaker 2:Well, and I don't want to detour because I want don't lose your train of thought, because I love where you're going. But I will say we could maybe talk about this later. But I don't know how people do that without a place like Valiant. And I'm not saying that to give a commercial, I'm just saying for me personally when I was in pause. There is no way. If I wasn't in a safe, accountable environment like Valiant, that I was stuck with it. Right. Environment like Valiant, that I was stuck with it. Right, I was too crazy.
Speaker 1:Well, most of the time and I'll go back, but I'll detour for a sec Most of the time we do get to that place where we're like screw it. I knew my life back then and I know I'll take the lumps and I know I'm messed up and I know there'll be consequences for going back to this old lifestyle. But at least it's known and at least I know how to handle it and at least I have some relief. But this, this uncharted territory where I feel like a whack job all the time. You know, this entry into a new life is painful and sketchy, and so well said. Because if you don't have a box around you and you don't have the guardrails, and you don't have the hope and you don't have the guidance and you don't have people that can embrace you and you're probably going to turn back.
Speaker 2:Well, I just needed a place to pitch a fit. You know, like this was a place where I would just lose my mind over simple stuff and looking back it felt like insanity. But I don't know if I wasn't in a place like this, because I'm sure it's possible. I know people do 90-90 and meetings and all this stuff, but I had to. For me, I had to be in an environment like this where I was not driving, I didn't have my phone, I didn't have my keys, accountability and most of the work that I did here and I've heard you say this before, so I feel comfortable saying it was me in my bedroom just duking it out with God and myself. You need that space, yeah, without the opportunity to go to, to run back to an unhealthy fix. That's right.
Speaker 1:You took all that away from me. People forget too. You hear these pastors and I love them. I mean there's, there's this guy, sean. He's like amazing, I've never met him. He's the head of Red Rocks. Yeah, great dude. And then he'll share about all his stuff and then he'll talk about his book on anxiety and he'll give a bunch of hope and tears and everyone will love it. But he went away, suicidally, goes away and comes off the field and for some reason, when people get sober or they get well, they forget that they actually even did that. So, like the person that literally started Alcoholics Anonymous Bill Wilson in 1935, was in the hospital when he had his spiritual awakening. He was in a hospital fighting withdrawals. He was in a hospital fighting withdrawals. So why are we sitting? Why are some of us sitting in 12-step meetings when and then there's somebody across the room going well, you just bought yourself a $35,000 big book. You never needed to go to treatment to begin with, right when the actual, the leader of the whole movement, went to treatment.
Speaker 2:But let me get back.
Speaker 1:So I'm sitting there talking to him and I'm saying a lot of times it was the anxiety about the anxiety Like I'm so scared that I'm going to have these bad dreams, I'm so scared that I'm going to have this rage, I'm so scared that I'm going to that. It actually not only produces the experience, but it heightens the experience. It's like it makes you even more anxious. So it's the anxiety about the anxiety. So I said to him dude, I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. We're not setting you up for failure. The worst thing that could happen is the polygraph will come out inconclusive. No one's gonna say he failed, he lied, he's full of crap. It's gonna come back and say something's off, his heart rate was fluctuating and it's inconclusive.
Speaker 1:So I could see in his eyes, as I was sharing with him. I could see his anxiety going down and I said so really, what you need to do is know that you're gonna be okay walking into this, and I'm sharing this with you because we all can almost in a lot of ways, produce our greatest fears because of our fear. Now, the reason why I'm telling you this story is because I'm walking in today, going what are we going to talk about and I'm thinking all of this is universal. So someone might be watching and be like, yeah, I'm not doing a polygraph and nor would I ever like need to do one. I can't relate.
Speaker 1:This is no, I'm not talking about that. I'm not talking about the universality of us having to do polygraphs. I'm talking about the universal experience of these emotions that we feel and these narratives that we create and these stories we create about ourselves and others and God. And the core of all of this is a lot of the emotions, the shame, the guilt, the regret, the anger, the fear, the anticipation, the depression, the self-pity, the excitement all the things that come with it. The internal experience and mindset that comes with it is pretty universal. Like, you and I could sit down. We started right before the recording.
Speaker 1:I was like, yeah, I know exactly how you're feeling. Yeah about, oh, yeah about what you're going through right now, and the reality is, um, no, not exactly, but but I know enough to know how to relate and how to show up for you and really listen to you and not make it about me, but give you enough sense that you're not. I'm not like going sitting there about you know. Dial 911. This dude's off his rocker.
Speaker 2:Well, it makes you feel less lonely, like when you say like, hey, I actually had something similar and I know what you're going through, and whatever. It didn't feel like, oh, in that moment you're trying to top my story. It was more like, hey, I, I know what you're experiencing, which, in that moment, what I interpret is I know that fear, I know the sadness that comes up, I know, and all of a sudden I'm like, okay, I'm not alone in this. This is, this is a human experience that happens and that isolation is is deadly. So it it is.
Speaker 2:I don't know that people realize even some of those like small interactions, like what we just had. How much healing happens in that connection?
Speaker 1:Yes, and the shared experience and the risk was you shared. You said something. It was really embarrassing, yeah Right, and I was like, and I was with this guy and I'm a little embarrassed to say this, but but I was coaching my and it was probably part of part of it was diversion I'm a little embarrassed to say this, but but I was coaching my and it was probably part of part of it was diversion. I hired a um, a physical trainer, okay, and so I met the gym an hour ago and he works with some of our clients. This guy, ryan, he's a cool guy and he's an engineer, though he's like, kind of like in his he's heady. And I was telling him how I talked to men about coming in and I was like I could set you up with like different meetings in this building here that we exist in, and I said, here's how you want to play. You know, like, when you're talking to the guys across the hall in that ballpen, a bunch, you know, 20 something year olds, um and uh, how you want to make it seem appropriately like this is smart. He was like, you know, michael Jordan, jordan wasn't going into a shame cycle because he had a trainer and a masseuse and a shot coach and he's wanting to amp his game up. You want to amp your game up. You want to accomplish your goals. You want to get to where you want to go.
Speaker 1:Stop thinking that somehow there's a deficit because you can't figure it all out yourself and then you can't consistently come up with the willpower to do it. Be smart, be humble. And then you can't consistently come up with the willpower to do it. Be smart, be humble, hire the coach. We all need that in our lives.
Speaker 1:To um go into pain in order to uh, in order to um get to a place where what we call it, what you guys call VO two max, how quickly can your body recalibrate and get back to a sense of homeostasis? That's what we're trying to teach our men. We're trying to say it's not. If it's when you mess up, when you screw up, when you go into a shame cycle, when you do something that you regret, when you slip back into an old behavior, how quickly can you rebound? And it's the same thing with working out, and you need to show people how you're going to teach them how to move into discomfort, stay in discomfort, come out of discomfort, have a new level of self-efficacy, move into more discomfort, and it's not rocket science, but we need each other and we need to be humble Like you. Just put it out there. You were like man dude, this is what I'm going through. It opened up a five-minute conversation that could have changed our day. Oh, 100%.
Speaker 2:And likewise, I think there's something to being being people of psychological safety, because you're a person in a leader who who sometimes maybe even to a fault leads with your, with your weakness, right. So like this is not like. Oh Deneen's coming in. He's the CEO of our company. I need to perform for him. How crazy is it that the first thing we talked about was something that was super?
Speaker 1:vulnerable and vulnerable.
Speaker 2:So there's something to, as humans, us carrying ourselves in a way where people feel like, hey, I can, I can trust this person with some vulnerable stuff and it's not going to be turned around and used against me to harm me or whatever it's like. And that's what's happening in the quote, unquote real world. That's why it's not going to be turned around and used against me to harm me or whatever it's like, and that's what's happening in the quote, unquote real world. That's why it's like sometimes even you come out of valiant or for me, I come out of valiant. And one of the hardest things and this is something we've talked about, even incorporating into our programming is knowing how to function again in a world who where a lot of times they don't value the kind of radical honesty that we've come to be a norm here.
Speaker 2:I'll be with a brother and it's so normal for us to get past small talk into depth of what's going on in our lives, because we know how good the connection and the healing is when we share. But then I'll have friends that aren't in recovery and they'll just look at you with deer in the headlights Like why are you? Why are you telling me this? And part of the part of what you have to learn when you leave here is how to not overshare with people at the gym. It was like, wow, I didn't sign up for all that, but it does. It does go back to what you started. These, these the narratives, not just about ourselves, but about others. So I've written a narrative about Deneen, that is, he's a safe person for me to be vulnerable with, you know. So, even with that idea of narratives for someone who's listening or watching who, that's a new concept, a new idea can you?
Speaker 2:kind of like at the ground level, unpack. When you say narrative, what do you mean?
Speaker 1:by that yeah, and I may. It might not even actually be the dictionary where there's a beginning, meet, end, there's some cohesion, there's a storytelling, there's a narrative, what we create from a very early age about ourselves and about the world, to try to make sense of things that could actually really help us and really hurt us if we're not willing to examine them and let go of them. So you just teed this whole conversation up when you talked about how we went right to vulnerability, because for me, thinking about it as this double-edged sword for me, so we both really like that book, because I heard you preach and I was blown away. But you incorporated Henry Nowen's book, the Return of the Prodigal Son, and he used to be one of my favorite authors. Um, and you know, you get and you're near in recovery I'm in recovery 33 years but you get hot on an author who you really feel like understands you and that you're not alone in this world, um, like a poet, uh, or somebody that is that can speak to you.
Speaker 1:For me early on it was van morrison. Okay, I literally thought that van was like at one point I didn't have a sponsor, I was alone. I was living in a, in a in a studio apartment on route nine in frammingham. I was commuting to emc squared up in hopkinton, massachusetts, and I would put it was right around when van got sober in the early 90s, late 80s, and he was putting out these just amazing albums like Hymns to the Silence and Moondance and all that. But there were lines where I'd be like this man understands my internal experience and he speaks to something beyond. He speaks to some sort of mystical part of life that I yearn for and that I can taste a little bit and I just felt like. I felt like, wow, there's somebody out there that gets it. It gets it.
Speaker 1:So you know now, when I'm reading that book and he's doing these like parallel experiences of like Rembrandt's life, of being this guy cocky and all over the place and making money and drinking and partying, but then losing kids and losing his reputation and then getting beat down and having this like and showing it through his artwork and showing that like the humility and just showing the phases he went through and then, but also incorporating the biblical story and the implications of when you ask for your share of while your father's still alive and all the sort of more, the Hebrew and Jewish experience of that story, what that would have meant, right Of the eldest and the father and everything, and the youngest going away.
Speaker 1:And then also our own particular journey, the human journey of going away, going away from God, going away from ourselves, losing ourselves, going to a distant land trying to find the happiness that we think is out there, or the love that we think that we're going to get, or the notoriety or admiration or the conquering that is going to satisfy this yearning in the soul. And so it's like we all go away from ourselves. We don't have to ask for the money and end up in a distant country. It's metaphorical, right, and the coming home and, but then that part of us, that eldest son, part of us that is, it gets to when, when you do get your shit together and and that you and that there is a, they used to say like alcoholics are the only people that can lay in the gutter and judge the people walking by.
Speaker 1:It's like you don't think alcoholics have egos, Alcoholics. I worked in a homeless shelter and alcoholics are just so judgmental. It's unbelievable.
Speaker 2:It's like how do you have the moral high ground to judge? But we do, but we do.
Speaker 1:And so you get these. And then you go into these elder son phases where it's just like look at me, and then, why aren't I getting this? It's like God, I'm not cheating on my wife, I'm not doing anything. I'm showing up at the soccer practices, I'm providing, I'm like, and it's just like, and it's like this almost self-righteousness and this demand that life work out. And this resistance I think this is where now one was going with this whole thing was this resistance to embracing the heart of the father who waits, who's over himself, who doesn't really care what everybody's thinking and feeling. He's in enough pain, he's seen enough that he's not overly impressed with who he is. He's there to love and respond and to run to and to embrace and to plead with the eldest son to come in, to try to do everything he can, but still need to let go. He couldn't make the youngest son come home. He couldn't make the eldest son come into the party. There's a free will component to all of this, but I guess there's always been this.
Speaker 1:Now I'm gonna put the narrative into it. My identification with the youngest son has been so thick and it was so solidified even before I touched the drink, before I started acting out sexually before I did drugs, before I created damage in this world, I was already this little dyslexic, add, there's something wrong with me. And I'd already set up a younger son narrative of getting kicked out of class by the nun. Then they would feel sorry for me, I would feel I would be in a shame cycle. They would give me a piece of cake or soda. I mean, this is seven years old, wow, seven years old I was already had set up this dynamic, that the shame dynamic. If there's anything that exemplifies my life story, it's shame and how thick it's been and how much relief I've gotten and how much reconciliation I've come and how much healing in that area. That's all my story is about, is just a buildup and a healing of shame.
Speaker 1:But then it's like at what point in your life? And it's like at what point in your life, 57 years old, beautiful kids, my daughter just wrote me a letter and it said something like dad, I don't see you as this person that you describe. Wow, from the eighties, where you were this guy, and that is not my experience of you, man, and she's. That is not my experience of you, phew, man. And then she listed off what her experience was of me and I was like and it's hard to handle, you almost have to reject it. Yeah, because it's too thoughtful and beautiful and that you almost can't handle it. It's probably hard to receive, it's hard to receive.
Speaker 1:But my point is is like, how much hustle I've gone into into my own life, this 33 years of recovery, of seeking, how much of that has been this overcompensation for this kid that thinks he's the youngest son, who thinks he's unworthy and just messed up and has to now overcompensate and knock it out of the park so that I can make up or burn off bad karma or get God to see that I'm the good boy now, or I'm the eldest son, or I'm the, instead of just embracing the story of it.
Speaker 1:It's okay to move into this fatherly role and to get over yourself and to be yourself and to be okay and then not downplay yourself but not upplay yourself. Like. There's just like and just it's just. You're just not that interested in any of it. I love that. It's just a hard it I'm. I'm describing it as like something that is. It seems like it's almost easy to do, like a decision Like hey, get over yourself, embrace this new, but the internal war is what I'm really talking about. How do we give up, how do we let go of old narratives about ourselves, others and God?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know. Here's what you're making me think. Yeah, I don't want to interrupt you because the train of thought you're on is awesome.
Speaker 2:I'm just thinking about this story in Luke 15. So, whether you're a follower of Jesus or not, this ancient story is so applicable to anybody. I mean the depth of this story. I keep learning new things about it all the time, like it's like you think you'd read a story but like you got all that you can get out of it. But there's just so many layers. Well, here's a new layer that just came to me, because you're sitting here talking about the narratives and the stories that we write and who we become and all those kinds of things, is actually only in the Western culture that the translation is called the parable of the prodigal son. Over in Eastern cultures and Eastern religions it's actually called the parable of the running father, and I think part of it is. I'll say, for me, and especially in Western cultures, it's so egocentric that even the name of the story is about us. But then we realize that wait a minute, I'm not the central figure in this story. It's not the story. It's not about the prodigal son, it's not even about the older brother. It's about a running father. And understanding the running father is how you rewrite, I think and test this. This is bone jelly Is how you rewrite the story, because here's what you made me think.
Speaker 2:When the prodigal son comes home to the running father, why did the father run out to him? Well, I think it could be a couple of reasons. I think he might have been excited to see him. I also think there was people back at the house. I think the running father could have potentially ran to him because he wanted to present his son how he saw him, but not how he was presenting himself. I mean, think about that. Like he says, go get the finest robe. Well, whose robe is the finest robe? The father's. So he runs to him.
Speaker 2:The son has been reciting this narrative. Remember when he was in the pit? He's like here's what I'll go back and here's what I'll say. So, to your point, there's a narrative. He's writing this narrative and he's practicing it. Yeah, well, if you read in the script I literally just thought this when you said it he doesn't even get through his whole story and the dad interrupts him, right, he's's like that's not the narrative, right, go get the rope right. And so when they walk up together to the house, whoa, he's wearing a ring and a robe. He's not looking like he's in the pit and the father is rewriting the story for him and in re presenting him to everyone as who the running father sees him as, but not who he saw him as. Wow, isn't that crazy? It's crazy, you know.
Speaker 1:You're reminding me of I had goosebumps as I was thinking about that. I have goosebumps right now and one of the things is, you know, you move from head prayer to heart prayer, right, and that's why we sometimes repeat right Like a repeat of prayer.
Speaker 2:Like a liturgy or something even.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, like a repeat of prayer, like a little over something, yeah, in order, in order for it to slowly open the heart up and then start praying from, from the, from our being versus our head, right, but every now and then, you know, I'm, I'm like you have to pray like you mean it, like you really mean it, and there, and you're reminding me of like that, like psalm 23, where it's just like the cup is gonna overflow, he's putting a ring on the finger.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna, I am gonna dwell, like in like goodness and mercy follow me this, this thing has my back, the creator has my back and there's, and it's almost like I'm the obstacle, because it's like, if that's true and I'm willing to completely embrace it, that puts a whole different view of this day and my life. But if I'm like, no, you have no idea the shit that I've done.
Speaker 2:It's like If that's the narrative you're starting out, if that's the Psalm you're reading I'm in trouble.
Speaker 1:Different outcome, different outcome, but if it's the Lord is my shepherd.
Speaker 2:I won't want for anything.
Speaker 1:So it's almost like this belief that. It's like it's like this guy, david, who seems a little off the wall from the Old Testament. It's like his belief, though, was he's going to forgive me, he's going to welcome me back and I'm going to be okay, and and he is going to restore me, like I just know it he restores my soul.
Speaker 1:I don't restore my own soul, right, I just know it. Yes, and so now that I'm digging into that lately, because it's like it's like I'm not digging into actually the Bible, but I'm digging into that concept of of like, when it's this constant your faith, faith has healed you or it's your belief, it's it's as you as a man thinketh. So it is all this kind of metaphysical meets by, meets, bible meets, meets, everything of like how much of this really is manifestation and and belief and vision and and how much of of life really is about the narrative, about the mindset, about and it's not like you can fake yourself out like positive, positive, positive, positive, positive.
Speaker 2:It's not that.
Speaker 1:It's not, and I think that's deeper than that.
Speaker 2:It's so deeper much deeper than that.
Speaker 1:That it's like. It's like this willingness to completely step into the unknown. I'll give you an example. You know how I do this off the wall stuff. Like this client was like I, I can't come in. I got to go to this conference and I was like great, I'll go. Yeah, I was like dude, I'll, I'll just come in, get settled in, I'll go with you and, uh, so we're in this car.
Speaker 2:Your wife's gonna be like what is he, where's he going?
Speaker 1:again, she doesn't even question anymore she's like as long as we're not moving, yeah, as long as you haven't.
Speaker 2:You know, that's funny funny, but we need to get her on the podcast, by the way. But go ahead, that would be awesome.
Speaker 1:So I'm in this thing and the first night of this conference called the Awaken Conference, I had no idea what it was. It was like Christianity meets landmark and it was like a self-improvement check. Your like, check. Like if you really want to grow, you have to, like, question the lens you're looking through, type stuff. And the first night the head woman walks up to me, the head trainer, and she's like you want some feedback. And I was like sure, and she's like I experienced you as arrogant and thinking you're superior, whoa. And I was like, and she walks away and I was like and the next day I had made friends with this guy. He's an army ranger, like psycho, coolest guy ever.
Speaker 1:He's like number six out of 250 army rangers. He's now retired but he's like still he carries that intensity with him. And I see him walk by in the hotel. I was like dude, that squid last night, the head trainer. Because he was one of the trainers, I was like you're, you're, you know, the queen bee. I was like I don't know what was going on with her. But this is, and he's like can I give you some feedback? I'm like, yeah, everyone else is feeling free. And I was like bring it, man. And and he's like, just continue to question the the lens you're looking through, dineen, and all of a sudden he walks away and, granted, remember and this is sort of ego, but sort of like shame that I'm saying this Like I don't know anyone that's worked harder on themselves than me. Okay, okay, so like I believe you. Yeah, I'm going to therapy later today and she's a rock star, this woman. She's helped change my life, but I'm You're still in meetings all the time.
Speaker 2:I'm in meetings.
Speaker 1:I'm doing retreats, I'm reading books.
Speaker 1:I'm doing centering prayer twice a day to connect to the contemplative movement. I am like trying to get in nature as much as possible. Like the list goes on and on. I just came from the gym. I as much as possible. Like the list goes on and on. I just came from the gym. I'll do yoga tomorrow. Like it's like, and it's a lot of it, some of it's functional, some of it's dysfunctional, and like how much work I have to do to get to like a normal baseline, what I would consider a normie But-.
Speaker 2:You're also pouring out a lot, so you have to fill back up a lot. But anyways, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And but all that work and and and I had never come to this deep. You know when it goes, when it goes the seven layers deep and it gets out of your head and it rips through your body and they call it catharsis or they call it a psychic change or they call it. You know, like, but what you were talking about was really important. But what you were talking about was really important. It's like these moments where you're wrestling with God in your room alone and you're having these profound moments and it's like in life they're few and far between. Like you know, if you get 20 in a lifetime of these like massive mental shifts, you are a really blessed man. All of a sudden he walks away and all of a sudden I realize all I've been doing my whole life since I was a little chubby boy, was taking your temperature to see how you felt about me, yeah, and then I was going to adjust my self-perception.
Speaker 1:We call this codependency. But how deep this runs. When you're swimming, when you're a fish swimming in the water, you don't actually know you're in the ocean. When something is so deeply ingrained into your psyche you don't actually even know, everybody else kind of is tapped in a little bit. They could see how kind of needy you are for for like a hug or whatever, but, but you're not.
Speaker 1:You can, you're kind of aware, but you're, but you're not as aware as you could be if you were actually out of your body, looking at the hardware and the software from an outside perspective and all of a sudden, this realization rips through my body that you can't live this way anymore. You have got to get to a place, however painful. And if the world rejects you, and if you end up alone because, by the way, all of these narratives have consequences If I truly become my true self, whatever that is, or if I truly walk out and the great spiritual teachers are really good examples of this it's just walk out and just be rejected by the world, sit under a tree, whatever it is right. There's always this story of like, this dude has lost his mind, whatever it takes to be free from myself and the narratives that I've created about me. And God, bring it, wow, bring it. And it takes.
Speaker 1:I think it takes a certain fusion of pain meets realization, meets gift, meets grace, meets everything. But when you get those moments, it's not as embarrassing as gosh. I can't believe it's taken this long. Sometimes it's like, wow, thank you that I'm finally there, thank you that I'm finally there, and it's a little embarrassing because you started a treatment center for this very reason. You know what I mean. You teach what you need to learn, you teach what you need to learn, and so it's like, oh my gosh, I'm teaching all this stuff that I actually need to learn.
Speaker 2:That's right, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:So I'm saying all this because it's like how much of me can just jump down and dirty with you because I so identify with the younger son? Yeah, how much of it is unhealthy. How much is healthy? I think more healthy Healthy? Yeah, with you, and I For sure.
Speaker 1:And so I just have to, as I'm going through this new phase of kind of spiritual development, of like getting to a new level of I'd rather live in truth than make you feel comfortable and make me feel comfortable, put us all in a box. I'd rather be so uncomfortable living in truth right now than anything. Then, when you hit this new phase, it makes you question everything, and that's why I was struggling, like what are Drew and I going to talk about? I don't know if I sometimes know the truth. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I'll read people like Cynthia Bourgeau and like this woman that I found lately and I'll be like, yeah, this woman is off the charts, right, but I was like dude, I don't know what I. I'm still this like. In some ways I'm down the line, I'm 33 or sober and in some ways I'm like at the front end of so many things.
Speaker 2:Yes, so many things. I think that's awesome, like what you just said actually gives me more hope than make me feel shame, because I'm like gosh. At first I'm like, well, if Deneen is just learning this stuff, then man, where, where am I? But when I actually think about it, I'm like the beauty of it is not not to be cheesy or cliche, but you talk about it being more of a journey than destination. I want to fix it, I want to arrive, I want to.
Speaker 2:You know, even when some of these situations we were talking about earlier popped up, the first thing I want to do is to spring into action. But because I had tools from Valiant here, I was able to lead myself to just sit in it, sit in the pain and be uncomfortable, move through it, you know. But before I move through it, to actually feel it, hey, what's coming up for me? What am I feeling right now? Is this fear? Am I sad? Do I feel hurt by this? Whatever, it is because I wanted to just jump into action immediately. But the beauty of what you're talking about and the reason why this is hopeful for anybody listening, that's like okay. Ceo, founder of a company that does this for people been in recovery for a long time is having aha moments, almost daily moments, almost daily is still going to meetings. It's still going to therapy, still going to silent retreats, spiritual treats, whatever comes up. It's still willing to be confronted and receive, you know, feedback. That's it makes me think okay, great, we're all on the path.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've had. There was a group of guys that would. Uh, there was like a number of different people that would go to onsite, but this original group of men, this guy Gary Fisher and Bobby Ferguson, the kind of like guys that are now kind of- in retirement.
Speaker 1:There's a guy, mike Netherton, who used to be the COO of Betty Ford. When Betty Ford was like the place to go, all of that, they started a group and they started getting real with each other and then I think we were group number three like that started going to onsite but they paved the way of like I was like, oh man, if, if, if, bobby Ferguson could get super real about like how scared he is about sense. He called it like census deprivation disorder Because I was telling him one day. I was like, dude, I am so scared right now about my census and he's like, yeah, join the club of treatment center owners.
Speaker 2:Daneen, Like you are not unique.
Speaker 1:I'm like dude, I'm not as spiritual as I'm like a weak man my whole life is like correlated to like how my wife feels about me and my senses and he's like, yeah, that's not impressive in any direction.
Speaker 1:He's like that's how we live and it was just. It made it so comfortable for me to be more comfortable for me to be human and be like oh wait, second, jay walker is like a massively successful company, sure, and bobby's had a huge impact on this field and he has been as scared as I am and it all it took was for me getting real and and all it took was for him to be like he met you in that place.
Speaker 2:it's exactly what he did for me earlier. Yeah, same thing.
Speaker 1:And it wasn't a pat on the head Like, oh, it's going to be okay. It was more just like been there, yeah, and not there now.
Speaker 2:But yeah, you're right on time. I've got a friend that's a business owner and he's very, very successful and I asked him one time about you know just his process, whatever and he says he says I wake up scared, I go to bed scared and everything in between is the grace of God. And I'm looking at this guy and he kind of said it with a smile. But I'm looking at this guy like what, like how, like you're a multimillion, like you're running this massive company.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:He's like yeah, I'm scared to death. I wake up scared, I go to bed scared and I'm like, oh man, I thought there was a place where we wouldn't have to feel this anxiety anymore. And he's like no, but it goes back to what you were saying earlier when you were talking about Psalm 23 and some of the other things. It's which narrative are you going to step into at the beginning of the day, is it? I shall not want? You guide me, you protect me, you restore me, you lead me by still waters, you bring peace, you, whatever? Do we recite these narratives of ourself? Or is it, man, I'm scared and I better go out and work hard and do something and roll up my sleeves? And I got to make this happen, and so we live in this anxiety versus surrender posture.
Speaker 2:And it wasn't until really me it was. It was psalm 51 and again there's I know there's people that are listening and watching this that our beliefs are all over on the spectrum. So this is not about you know my beliefs, but just in general of praying, these ancient prayers and these liturgies that get the focus off of ourselves. And and you mentioned David earlier this guy was a train wreck. I mean a murderer, an adulterer, whatever. And then here God says David's a man after my own heart. Yeah, like David's my guy, mind-boggling. You're just like. David really is your dude. Why I still struggle with that? I think it's just because he, david, really is your dude. Why I still struggle with that, I think he's just cause he was so honest. Yeah, he just was like God. I'm. I'm pissed at you today. Where have you been? Why are you? And then it's almost like he would start with that narrative and then halfway through the Psalm you'd see him course correct and it's like but I know you're.
Speaker 1:I do that all the time. It would come out that way. It would come out like all this crazy and accusations, fear, shame, and then sort of like a plea, and then ending with somehow you work your way through. I mean, that sounds like that's a great recipe Into gratitude. Somehow you're like, yeah, but in the past I've always come out of this and in the past God has always shown up in the past and then all of a sudden it moves into gratitude and it and it, and that wasn't on purpose, it actually just happened from just barfing it out and then working through it.
Speaker 1:So it was like here's where I'm at right now, what I'm feeling help me and then, ending with gratitude, I know are reminding ourselves of, of who god is and what. What I want to share too is just like so, as we kind of move towards conclusion. I want to share like how this narrative manifests itself internally with me, and I want to give one example. And I don't remember I'm at the front end of this, I'm not, I can't speak to it as though I've tapped in to the sunlight of the spirit. I've tapped into this power source. I've tapped into this like this true self that I'm going to um, that I'm going to live in and stay in. But I'm very aware sometimes they call it the negative way, like we kind of know what God isn't and that's how a lot of people find God is like you, just by the process of elimination of what God isn't. They call it some Latin term for the negative path to God.
Speaker 1:But in some ways it's like I see these parts of me and you've, you've witnessed these. It's not like. It's not like I'm hiding them as well as my ego thinks it is. It's like I have this part you you found me one day I was hiding and it's like I have this part that hides. That's like I'm too much for the world, my energy is too much, I'm too passionate. My, my, my emotions can, my emotions can light up a room, but they can also be toxic for people, and so you need to save yourself and you need to save everybody else by not being around anybody.
Speaker 1:That's where some of the self-care comes in. It's like when I'm doing all this cool stuff, some of it is to keep me occupied and keep me in the zone and not doing anything self-destructive, but not actually engage the world fully. And then there's this other part of me, because you talked about feeling all those emotions and groups and all. And then there's this other part of me that is savage. It's the kid in new york, the way they teach you to do it. If you know this is going down, hit hard, hit first, yeah, and act crazier than you are and act way tougher than you are because you're about to get killed you are going to get.
Speaker 1:It's just a survival mechanism, yeah and so so there's a part of me that's like we're fucking go, we're going to fucking take action, action, action action spraying emails.
Speaker 2:I'm, I'm.
Speaker 1:I'm like, like it's good, shit is going down, Whether we like it or not we're going to burn this.
Speaker 2:That's just a hit first fear reaction.
Speaker 1:It's a it's like and the fear is, it's like if I don't act crazier than I am, bad things are gonna happen, right, and it's like so you gotta go, you gotta go, alpha, you know, um, uh, mock, mock 10 with your hair on fire. And neither of those are really the essence of me, but I think they are me. These parts, parts, right, these voices, these behaviors, these internal pockets. The truth is that there's a deeper, there's a deeper sense of self, there's a true self in there. That is, that are neither of those things.
Speaker 1:Those are just extreme examples, polarized examples of what happens to me when I'm in fear, when I'm scared of what happens to me when I'm in fear when I'm scared, uh, and the journey is less about satiating the fear of, like staying away from people, or motivating and getting things done and and making change. Neither of those actually accomplish the goal of coming home right Of like this, you know, like the running to that was amazing. And this coming home experience and coming to this like true sense of self, like who are you? Who are you really? Who are you really, who is your true self. And so this is kind of crazy how you kind of teed it up, like you always do, in a cool way of like the, the ring goes on the finger, the robe gets taken out. Maybe that's more who we really are. We are the child.
Speaker 1:Yes, we're the child that we're gonna. We're that, for whatever reason, this, this dad or mom or universe or thing, has taken a real liking to. Yeah, it's just sort of like I know who you are and I really still like you, right. And so this power center, this source, is inside of us and it's our job to go through whatever Lord of the Rings trilogy we have to go through in order to tap it.
Speaker 1:And when you tap it, when you grab the ring, when you finally go and you don't necessarily need to fight, but you do need to walk through the dark and there's going to be a lot of creepy crawlies internally, the end result is pretty good, the end of the story is good. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, like that's really where I'm headed with this like let go of narratives question. Maybe I'm not the prodigal son, maybe I'm not the eldest son, maybe there's elements of the father inside of me, maybe maybe this is there, maybe there is a unique sense of of who you are, how you are wired, that is, it is that is not fully tapped yet and that you're in it, you're in the process and, uh, it's better than thinking somehow no offense of like make enough money where I could buy season tickets to the broncos or something like that that's going to fill a hole right, like, because otherwise I'm just I'm going to think the answer is external. That's right, I am. I'm going to constantly think that it's that the answer is outside of me if I, if I make this is where the power comes back to you and I, if I make it that the answer's outside of me. If I make this is where the power comes back to you and I. If I make it that the problems, the obstacles, the healing and the answers and the power is all within, then I'm no longer a victim.
Speaker 1:This was done to me. I'm no longer the perpetrator. I'm no longer the perpetrator. I'm no longer any of this. I'm just a man that's seeking to tap into the true self. Yeah, and to have enough guts to try to do it, because I'll tell you, I'll end with. This is the real fear. Is what if I tap in and I find out you are the scumbag that you always thought you were, or that you are unworthy and you will get rejected and you will be left alone and people will wise up and you will be unloved and you won't have people around Like I know that's very dramatic, but that's at the core of the human experience.
Speaker 1:Sure, absolutely Of the tribal experiences. Will I be left?
Speaker 2:Do I belong?
Speaker 1:Right, where do I fit? But fuck it.
Speaker 2:It's worth it. You got to just go for it.
Speaker 1:The alternative is no. The alternative is like you just keep the smarter or the more creative you are, you just keep reinventing a more savvy way to outmaneuver yourself and your ego to get what you think you want, yeah, yeah. And it doesn't land you. It only lands you temporarily in the sweet spot.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then it's back to where's my sense.
Speaker 2:Well, we appreciate you listening to this episode of the Valiant Living Podcast and our hope is that it helped you feel educated, encouraged and even empowered on your journey towards peace and freedom. If we can serve you or your loved one in any way, we'd love to have a conversation with you. You can call 720-756-7941 or email admissions at valiantlivingcom. At Valiant Living, we treat the whole person so you not only survive, but you thrive in the life you deserve. And finally, if this episode has been helpful to you, it would mean a lot to us if you'd subscribe and even share it with your friends and family. You can also follow along with us on Instagram and Facebook by simply searching Valiant Living. Thanks again for listening and supporting the Valiant Living podcast. We'll see you next week.
