Valiant Living Podcast
Welcome to the Valiant Living Podcast where we educate, encourage, and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom.
Valiant Living has been restoring lives and families since 2017 by providing multiple levels of care for men and their families. Fully accredited by The Joint Commission, Valiant Living has earned a national reputation as a premier treatment program, offering IOP, PHP, and recovery housing programs for men ages 26 and older. Founder and CEO MIchael Dinneen is a nationally recognized therapeutic expert, speaker, and thought leader in the behavioral health field.
On this podcast you’ll hear from the Valiant team as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at (720)-756-7941 or email admissions@valiantliving.com We’d love to have a conversation with you!
Valiant Living Podcast
Beyond Chaos: Finding Hope in Addiction Recovery with Maxwell Recovery Services
Recovery isn't a solo journey—it's a family transformation. This profound conversation with addiction specialists Madison Burke and Henry Maxwell from Maxwell Recovery Services reveals how the healing process must extend beyond the individual to encompass the entire family system.
Madison shares her personal story of using substances to escape reality after being diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at age 12. Her recovery journey illuminated how addiction manifested not just in substances but in relationships and work—"it ran through my veins in everything that I did." Henry describes his path from IV heroin addiction at 17 to becoming a recovery professional, explaining the powerful "outside-in paradigm" that drives addictive behavior: the desperate attempt to fill internal wounds with external solutions.
The specialists offer a revolutionary perspective on family involvement in recovery. Rather than viewing the person struggling with addiction as "the problem," they advocate for seeing addiction as a family system issue requiring everyone's participation in the healing process. Madison notes how families often orbit around the person in crisis, leaving them unsure of their identity when that person enters treatment. This insight reveals why family members need their own recovery work—not just for their wellbeing, but as a powerful model that "makes an impact" on their loved one's journey.
Perhaps most helpfully, they reframe the concept of boundaries as "limits"—recognizing when we've reached the end of what we can safely provide rather than attempting to control outcomes. Modern interventions have evolved far beyond the dramatic confrontations portrayed in media, now emphasizing collaboration, transparency, and "leading with love" while maintaining necessary limits. The experts share that these conversations often go more smoothly than anticipated because the person struggling may secretly want help but doesn't know how to ask.
For families feeling overwhelmed, the message is clear: you're not supposed to know how to handle addiction. The healing begins by reaching out for professional guidance, building community, and developing the skills to cultivate resilience. Despite the challenges, addiction is highly treatable, with recovery possible for both individuals and their families when they embrace the journey from chaos to strategy, from crisis to connection.
What step will you take today toward your family's healing journey?
Well, guys, thanks for jumping on and being a part of our podcast. For those that are listening or watching. We've worked really hard to get to this moment. This morning We've had tech issues, so obviously the universe really wants this to happen, because here we are. But, henry, madison, thanks for being on sharing a little bit of your story and the work that you're doing. Really grateful for that. So, madison, we'll start with you. Ladies first, of course, take us a little bit back to just your personal journey. We'll get into the work, but I want people to get to know you as well. What was your life like before recovery? Are you in recovery? How did you get into this space?
Speaker 2:Yes, I am happy to say that I'm in recovery now. I you know a lot of people talk about their recovery journey as sort of like it started when I first used, and for me, I think it started when I was diagnosed as a type one diabetic at the age of 12. And that's really when you know, it was something that I really didn't like happening in my life and did not want to acknowledge was happening, and I just dove straight headfirst into denial and avoidance and rebellion really, and so I lived that way for a really long time and along sort of the course of that, it's like most diabetics are told like you really shouldn't be drinking, it's really bad for your blood sugars, all that stuff. And I was going to show the world that I was different and unique and could do this. Well, and you know, spoiler alert, I was wrong, but I'm very glad to have gone through all of that, to have gone through all of that.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I've got a lot of medical trauma and went to a couple centers before I went to the one more. You know, my last center, basically my last treatment episode, and I think the difference for me there was it wasn't just about sobriety and I could really grab on to sort of the reasons why I was doing whatever it was I was doing to escape. It was like I would date the heroin addict and I would get him well and get him on Suboxone and you know, at the time that was like the most common course of treatment and it was like, and when I'm looking at him I did not have to look at myself.
Speaker 2:It's like, yeah, I was using cocaine, I was drinking at the bars, but who wasn't? In Aspen, colorado, and I didn't really have to look at my own stuff because I was so fixated on sort of healing the world and it was really distracting and it was really selfish and I was stealing a lot of processes from people. And so you know, henry and I'll get into what we do now and how it's important to let people have their processes. But yeah, I was able to look at how this addiction yes, it was with substances, it was with cocaine it was. You know, I had a stint with opiates. I certainly used alcohol in a very unhealthy way, but it ran through my veins every in my relationships, in my relationship with work, everything that I did. It was sort of there and so yeah, well, thanks for sharing that too.
Speaker 1:I mean, as you're talking, I've realized in my own story too and I don't know if you guys feel this way or not but there's so much more that connects us and that we relate, regardless of what is on the surface as far as your your drug of choice, or whether it's a sex addiction or intimacy disorder stuff or substance. It's like when you dig down a couple layers as humans there's so much we have in common that we're just trying, like the way it manifests might be different but, like as you're sharing, I'm like, yeah, I mean, I definitely can relate to that, and you guys see that quite a bit in your work that there's just a lot of commonalities when you kind of dive down beneath the surface.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yes. Yeah, I would say um, in in my work and outside of my work. You know, I think it's sort of that compassion piece and it's when, you know, I assume I don't know anything about the person sitting across from me. And when I learned to ask the right questions and actually hear the answers, I'm like, oh yeah, me too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, henry, talk a little bit about what drew you into this work and kind of what you learned through the years.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I want to just piggyback and say I mean what you're talking about, regardless of the addiction process, addiction, substance use, you know, intimacy disorders, it all is an outside in paradigm, right? It's like I feel empty. And how do I find this thing, this stimulus outside myself to be able to fill the internal wound right self to be able to fill the internal wound Right.
Speaker 3:And when I think about my story, just like Madison, I mean, I think about you know, when I was seven, eight, nine, and just this feeling which I don't think is uncommon for kids in general I think it's more pronounced with some but just this feeling like I'm not good enough, I don't fit in Right, if you really got to know me, you wouldn't like me. And walking around in my shoes with that perspective on life, it's like substances were the first time that I really felt like I could breathe and really felt like that got fixed. Right. And when I'm talking to families, so often they're baffled by the behavior and you know why does this person keep doing this despite experiencing all these consequences? And what I point out, you know, if you're anything like me, it makes complete sense because if the only thing that I've done that really worked to treat that internal condition is substances, I'm willing to experience a lot of consequences as a result of that. Right, it's a clear and actually pretty logical cost benefit, at least for a while. Right.
Speaker 3:And so for me, I mean, I started using when I was 12,. You know there's a lot of nitty gritty details. But essentially, you know, by the time I was 17, which is when I got sober, you know I was an IV heroin addict. I had a felony charge, I had health consequences. You know I had a lot of trauma just as a result of that lifestyle, lot of trauma just as a result of that lifestyle.
Speaker 3:And that's what sort of I mean story. Looking back, it's like I don't feel like I got sober as so much, so much as it sort of happened to me. You know, I was placed in a position where that was necessary and you know I started working in community mental health detox when I was a year sober and I've been in the field ever since, working in community mental health detox when I was a year sober and I've been in the field ever since. You know, and I mean sort of a combination of enjoying helping people and also, I think, in some ways being attuned to a overactive nervous system, you know, and like in crisis, and thankfully that's that's been sort of simmered down a little bit.
Speaker 3:But yeah that's what sort of got me into it.
Speaker 1:That's great and, man, there's so much I want to I'm holding myself back from, because this whole outside in paradigm that you talked about, I mean, I just want to explore that so much more and I don't know, maybe that's, maybe I have to have you guys back to do another, another episode, but that's so the way. You just said that. I was literally talking to a friend in recovery yesterday and they were saying and I wish I had, I wish this was before that conversation, because I'd have been better equipped. But but he was saying that he was like I don't know why I keep going back on and why I keep using, and I was thinking to myself and I think I might even say, well, it makes sense, because you're getting the relief that you need in short term. He's like but I know long-term, whatever, but but he was saying, yeah, it's like it's kind of amazing, like I need, I'm trying to get the relief.
Speaker 1:It was like, well, yeah, if it wasn't awesome at first, none of us would want to do it, but we're getting. You know, it's like the long-term and I hadn't heard that outside in paradigm and I think that that is definitely what connects us all. But can you talk a little bit now about just the work that you guys are doing together. I'd love to hear a little bit about just your organization and what you're doing. And then I want to get into some family systems, support stuff and we'll do a deeper dive on that. But just give us a little overview of what you guys are working on together.
Speaker 1:I'm supposed to ask we talked about this before we started. I'm supposed to specifically ask a person and I'm not doing my job very well right now, so we'll just say Henry, we'll start with you and then, madison, you feel any gaps on this one?
Speaker 2:I'm just going to punt it to him anyway, yeah, yeah right, I saw you kind of nudging that way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure, yeah, sure. So gosh, in essence, what we do is we provide sort of high touch to help families think a little bit longer term and more strategic around. How do we support our loved one, not just in the sort of magic bullet perspective you know hope and fear of.
Speaker 3:Okay, if we get this person into treatment, whether it's 30 days or 15 days, you know they're going to be better and thinking more in terms of you know how do we help families to build a plan that helps their loved one move through the entire continuum of care and have those you know sort of resources and supports after they get out of the continuum of care. And then also helping the family learn how to of care and then also helping the family learn how to I mean boundaries is such a hot topic but essentially set reasonable limits and shift the way the dynamic in the family functions. You know, help the family to access their own support and essentially sort of heal that fractured relationship and develop this. You know, this family system of resilience where people can really support each other in healthy ways, and I think that looks really different depending on the situation. But you know, giving people tools, teaching people how to communicate more effectively. Usually the main thing is, you know, almost less is more right Learning to be more direct and assertive, but also loving.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:And yeah, and sort of in a nutshell, you know helping families to solve problems. Right, I tell families all the time it's like our goal is to be obsolete. And how do we do that? You know we create structure and supports and you know community for you so that you can navigate all these challenges, because there will certainly be challenges even if a person doesn't return to use, right.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, I love that and I think that's one of the ways that we really connected was this idea of family systems. I know at Valiant that's something we care deeply about and I love hearing that you guys are really have a holistic approach to that, because the truth is what you just said. I mean addiction does impact the whole family, I mean the whole family system, and it's like and I know just from my personal experience if the whole family doesn't enter into this process, I mean it really takes everyone buying in and engaging with the process for the family to get healthy. And so I'm curious, madison, in your experience, what are some of the most common ways that families might unknowingly kind of enable the cycle, and then how can they begin to think different and begin to shift that? And then how can they?
Speaker 2:begin to think different and begin to shift that? Yeah, I mean, it's a great question, and I think there are a number of different ways that people do this. I think the first way that I think of is really just forgetting that, just like the identified loved one, the person who needs the more intensive care, the treatment you know whether that's your son, your daughter, your husband, your wife, your whoever child like, they need help. But we need help too. You know, as the family system, we need help too, and so what I'll see happen is, you know, sort of this call to arms and forgetting that, yes, this is a system and that the whole dynamic has to shift.
Speaker 2:I mean the more common things that you'll hear. It's like oh, you know, they're living in my basement, or I'm only buying them food, or you know, I just got them a car. You know, there's sort of like the carrot on the string approach where people say like, if you do this, I'll give you this, and forgetting that this process and this healing and this endeavor together as a whole is the gift. That's the gift in and of itself. And, yeah, I think the hardest thing to do is, once your loved one, let's just say they get to treatment, they're in a safe environment. I mean there's this like huge sigh of relief. And then there's this sense of which I you know, in my experience what I hear from families is there's a sense of okay, now I'm safe to feel all this anxiety, all this anger all this fear that I haven't been able to feel because I've been in crisis and not necessarily knowing what to do with that, and oftentimes it's like if your loved one is the nucleus in that orbit.
Speaker 1:you know you want to either find someone else to orbit around or you want to pull that back back in, and so that's, I think, where interesting yeah I love how you said that, because you know that is absolutely true in my story and I'm grateful that I have a spouse and family that that was willing to do the work. But I just realized, looking back, how much, how much oxygen I sucked out of the room at all times and how much everybody was, you know, pivoting around me to make sure I was okay. And then, once I was removed from that and went to treatment, it was almost like now now, like now, what do we do? Like I even remember them saying, like my family was saying, I don't even, we don't even know what to do with ourselves. Like on a Saturday we were just we're sitting around and, like you know, then they were having to break some of those detachment, you know, detached from the unhealthy stuff, and you know cause. I just realized that when I was in the home I was just taking up all the space and so my family had to learn again how to, you know, do their, like you were saying, do their own work. They had to learn how to? Who am I when he's not around and how do I?
Speaker 1:You know, what does that look like, henry, for the family to actually, when we say do the work. What does that look like? To come alongside their loved one in treatment? Because I will say it made sense to me why, if my family were to say, no, listen, drew's the problem, he's he needs to go get help. He needs to go like he's, this is his issue. Whatever, that response makes sense to me, right. But the truth is and honestly that was kind of my expectation Truth is, the reason why we're in and I say this gratefully in a, in a really good place as a family today is because my wife and kids and everyone else decided to do their own work too and not just make this a Drew issue. And I'm so grateful for that, because I didn't have that expectation for them to do that, but I don't think we'd be here today if they wouldn't. So when we say, do the work, what does that actually look like, henry, in this context?
Speaker 3:Totally yeah. And I will say, first of all, when I tell families right and sort of present to them the idea that they do need to do the work which I think is so important to unpack, I think the hardest pitch to families is the idea that you doing this work separate and apart from your loved one. And I'm not talking about family program, I'm not talking about education per se, right, though I think that's an important piece of the puzzle. That is the hardest thing for families to wrap their head around, like, what does me doing my own personal therapy have to do with my loved one getting better? Right, and I think it comes down to, you know and this is sort of a broad stroke, I don't think this applies to everyone, but if you look at what the family is going through, it very much mirrors typical PTSD symptoms, much mirrors typical PTSD symptoms, right? Hypervigilance, intrusive thoughts. You know this stimulus coming up that may or may not be related produces this huge emotional reaction.
Speaker 3:No-transcript. I was doing addiction counseling, working in treatment. I knew that my area code that I was calling from was going to create some dysregulation. Just getting that call with a 970 area code was going to, was going to impact the family. When I called right, because usually the family would immediately jump to oh, he's leaving treatment, he's, he's AMA from treatment, against medical advice, right, and so I would say I'd say hi, my name is Henry Maxwell, everything's okay, right, just just calling to check in and so. And so you know that's a preface to say what do, what do we mean by doing the work?
Speaker 3:You know, I think there is an educational component. Uh, certainly, but more so it's. You know, how do we make those that education actionable? Right, and how do we take that, just like we would with the person in treatment, right, it's like there's all these concepts rolling around detachment boundaries, uh, you know communication skills, but how do we make that actionable? And what we try and do as, as supports for families, is actually sort of outline, like, okay, what are your specific practices that you're going to do every day? Right, and every week, um, you know, what community are you going to access regularly? Right, and my big statement these days to families is uh, I I say I just want to let you know, right, the, the families that I've seen have the most success commit themselves to a year of psychotherapy, individual psychotherapy and, and most of the time, they sort of wrinkle their face a little bit, and usually it's, you know, they have to go on out on a limb of faith.
Speaker 3:I say, hey, just trust me, you know it's gonna. It's gonna help you in ways that you may not be able to anticipate right now. Uh, and, and I think there's there's two pieces to that. One is it helps with regulation. Two, I think it helps build an awareness of how these patterns started to to develop within the family. And three, I think it also models behavior, right, where we know that, you know, as social creatures, we are so heavily influenced by what other people around us are doing. And I found, time and time again, if the whole family is doing that work and sort of modeling that behavior and sending this message to their loved one like, hey, we are in recovery and we want you to join us, even it, even if the loved one is sort of pre-contemplative or contemplative in terms of their stage of change, that that makes an impact. Yes, right, and, and the person just naturally drifts into, uh, taking more action for themselves and I've seen that time and time again, and that's usually the pitch that works.
Speaker 1:More than anything right, more than hey, we want to focus on you it's like hey, this will help your loved one if you do some of these things well, of course, and it makes you, I can say from my perspective it made me feel so much like just less alone in it, like when my specifically my wife, would be like, hey, we're in recovery or I'm in recovery. I mean, I felt so humbled by that too, because I, even in my shame, early on, I was like man, like I was almost defensive of her, like you don't.
Speaker 1:You don't, this is on me, you know none of you. But for her to be like, no, we're in, we're in this together and even as things have come up, even just recently, she has reassured me. She's been like, hey, just so know, this is ours to work through together, I'm like, golly, that's what a gift that is. But it takes, you know. You said trust. You know one thing you know, I learned going to trust you to help me guide these next steps, because in some ways, my instincts are are a little off right now, or whether I'm having a, a trauma response or dysregulated whatever. So I need to surround myself with a support team and I'm just kind of, in some ways, just going to do what you tell me to do for a season until I can kind of come back online mentally and emotionally. And it's not forever, but it's like and that saved us tons. I mean, that saved us tons, just to be like, okay, we got some great people around us and even we took like um, I think it was like a 45 day, um, like it was a digital detox, it was a we're not going to speak, we're going to just take a almost like a therapeutic separation and it was like I tell the guys in the program at Valiant all the time I think it's what saved our marriage and we didn't cause I was using at that point anybody and anything I could. So if we were to have communication it would have just made things so much worse. But it took people saying trust us, this is for your good. You may not feel like it, you know, and I'm curious, madison, from you.
Speaker 1:Like what talk about boundaries? I think you mentioned boundaries earlier. One of you mentioned boundaries, but this idea of the difference between healthy boundaries and in control, when it comes to someone supporting someone in recovery, right Cause it's like you know, I'm feeling that right now, with a close relationship, I want so badly to help this person get healthy and my control instincts are taking it, but then also I'm like, well, I can't fix them, especially if I'm not invited into that. So like, help us understand. Where does that? Where is that tension at a healthy boundary versus control, versus wanting to help, and it's messy, right.
Speaker 2:It's very messy. I mean it can be at least. And I think, especially when we, as the human race, are trying to do it on our own, without outside perspective, because we're going to be so biased by the situation in which we've been living that it's going to be really hard to see what's healthy and what isn't amidst all that chaos.
Speaker 2:And you know, I've started to steer away from the word boundary in and of itself, because it's really takes this really ugly connotation and I know as, like my addict brain still it's like like this is my boundary, like so that triggers something in me even yeah, like how dare you? That triggers something in me, even I'm like how dare you, right, Right, those are meant to be crossed, even though you know I'm healthy and happy and in recovery and well. So it's like I think, when we talk about boundaries, it's like I'm asking families what are your like what have you reached your limit with?
Speaker 2:And, henry, is that word limitation? It's like it's like one we reach the limit of what we can provide. So it's like it's like one we reach the limit of what we can provide. So it's like I am not a professional, I do not know the answer and that's totally okay. So it's like I can't help you anymore in the following ways, and sometimes that looks like I can't have you in my home because I've reached my limit with, like the sleepless nights, Like I need to rest, I need to take care of myself. I'm worried I'm going to walk down and find you overdosed, or yeah, and and I've reached the limit of what I can take when it comes to that. And for that reason, you know I need you to figure this out.
Speaker 2:Almost always, when we're working with families, there's there's a suggested alternative. Right, it's like I think families, when we talk about like kicking I'm going to use the kicking, the loved one out of the house analogy it's we're not kicking them to the streets. We're saying like hey, we're here to offer you this offer with a, with a chef and a roof over your head, and therapists and all of these things, and and allowing that you know the person to make that choice. It's like so, which can be really scary. And I think we're in uncertain times too, where it's like you know, back in the day you could say, oh, let them reach rock bottom or let them reach another low. And the truth is now, with fentanyl and sort of all these other substances in the mix, those things can be really fatal decisions.
Speaker 2:So we have to be careful.
Speaker 1:I I really appreciate the reframing of boundaries with the idea of limits Like that really helped me even think differently about, because I think sometimes in myself I have trouble knowing where the boundary is, and I'm trying to figure it out as opposed to thinking through well, where am I at my emotional limit and where does this become detrimental? So I'm really grateful for that reframe because, you're right, Boundaries is a word that gets used a lot and sometimes it gets used even selfishly, Like I've had people like just draw a boundary. I'm like well, geez, that's. You know, you still have to be a human and show up like that. No, that's where you drop my boundary, I'm like but I I think there's a lot more compassion and empathy and I'm at my limit, Like I want to help you and stop, but that I don't have anything more to give.
Speaker 1:I'm tapped out emotionally or whatever it is, and it almost puts a little bit more ownership back on the person, as opposed to like trying to keep you at a distance. Like when you said that, I felt a little bit like, oh, I just have more compassion for people that might say hey, it's not about you.
Speaker 2:I'm just I'm at my limit right now. And I think the other thing is it's like we just always have to look at like is what I'm doing helping, or is what was helping at one time still helping? And really not about like it's not punitive, it's not about punishment when you start to think in terms of like I'm going to teach them a lesson that's probably not a healthy boundary, right. Like it's not really your job to teach the lesson. Like the lesson is being learned and lived, I promise so. Is this still serving? Is this helping? Has it ever been?
Speaker 2:And the other thing is like you don't have to know what to do. It's like I know I can't have them living here, or I know I can't continue to give them grocery money, or I know I can't continue to let them dictate their treatment path because they haven't been making good decisions. That's kind of where people like Henry and I come in. But there's all kinds of people that are willing to say hey, what about this option or suggestion? You know you don't have to know what the alternative is. That's when we reach out and ask for help and suggestion, and I do it all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so freeing to not have to have all the answers and not have to fix somebody to have all the answers. And I have to fix somebody and I have to. Just I mean that alone. What you just said like should make people listening or watching their blood pressure go down of like, hey, I don't have to be a hero in this story, I can still stay connected to what, who I am, what I need, I mean that's. That's really beautiful. And when we talk, just Henry, this idea of family resilience, what does that mean to you? We talk about that and how is that cultivated, even like not just during but but after treatment, this idea of family resilience. Let's talk on that for a second.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so essentially, when we think about that word I mean, it sounds so lofty, but really we're we're talking about a series of competencies and skills, right, that are not easy to develop, but something that family members absolutely can develop, and resiliency, right. I believe the actual definition is the ability to bounce back from stressors, right? So how quickly can we return to baseline after a stressful event, right?
Speaker 3:Because it starts to bleed over a long period of time into our lives and cause symptoms, right, whatever the symptoms are, uh, when I, when I think about what cultivates resilience, uh, you know and these aren't my own ideas, you know, they're from sort of education and smarter people have come up with this stuff, but, uh, you know, it's community, uh, is a big piece of the puzzle. Right, it's not doing this alone, and that applies to what we talked about earlier. It's coping skills, right, so, having the ability to regulate our nervous systems right, which allows us to, you know, really gain access to whether you want to call it, the prefrontal cortex or the wise mind or whatever, right, but being able to actually make sort of informed, intentional choices that aren't just a trauma response. I think it's meaning right, so being able to attach meaning to our circumstance right.
Speaker 3:I see the families that are really able to navigate some really tough circumstances up until or I don't know if that's how you say it, but you know the death of a loved one, potentially as a result of addiction. You know I see those families that are able to cope with that when they have a tendency to get involved in, you know, using their experience to some positive good, right, so, helping other families you know I've seen families open up, you know different funds and charities to help people with addiction, things like that.
Speaker 3:So what that's doing is that's actually taking their you know their sort of narrative, you know what's happened to them, their history, and putting it into a context of we're not happy, this happened, obviously, but we can use our experience to some positive good. You know, and we know that from you know, anyone in the 12-step community knows that that's such a life-giving thing, right to pass along what's's happened, our experience, um, and then, yeah, and then I, I think you know, there there is an elf element of as we're we're talking about sort of uh, you know self-ownership and sort of an empowered perspective, right, understanding that, regardless of the circumstances. You know a lot of this is outside of our control, but we do have control over how we take care of ourselves.
Speaker 3:We do have control over you know, sort of the healthy limits we set. We do have control over these things. We're not totally victimized by our circumstances, absolutely. So I think if we cultivate all those skills and access support to cultivate those skills, we'll have resilience, you know, and we'll be able to navigate this stuff.
Speaker 1:That's so good. Community coping skills meaning self-ownership, I mean so helpful, so good. I want to just kind of maybe switch gears just for a second and I want to talk about just modern, infinite interventions, continuing care, all that stuff that you guys do as well. And the reason I want to go here is because I'd love to get your take on this. The word intervention in some ways has been hijacked in our culture and society. So when you hear intervention, a lot of times my mind goes to A&E, the TV version of bombing in on somebody, and it's dramatic and it's all this stuff right, which I'm sure that can be a part, you know part of it for sure. But, um, when you guys hear and, madison, we can start with you on this I'd love to hear just kind of both of your your take on this. Um, how has just modern intervention, how has it just evolved from the stereotypical way that we? Either it's been portrayed in movies and TV or maybe that's how it used to be, but it's just not as effective anymore?
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, absolutely of young adult or youth population. I mean, there are different models of intervention, there are different modalities, just like there are in, you know, any clinical setting. You know we've got the Johnson model of intervention, which is sort of what people think of, and then the modern way, I would say, of doing intervention, at least for most people, is some form of invitational intervention and you know, with that there, oftentimes you know, you'll blend different sort of forms of intervention or sometimes you'll go with one sort of model. But really what we're talking about is sort of leading with love. We're talking about honesty, transparency, we're talking about those healthy limitations and boundaries that, like, the family needs to uphold for their own protection as well as the protection of their loved one, and it's it is. It's an invitation to get well, it's an invitation to trust. It's often collaborative, Like you know, we've been talking about where it's like we want to do this together. What we have been doing as a family, as a unit, has not been working and we also need to change.
Speaker 1:Right, so they don't feel attacked, they don't feel like everyone's just focusing on them. It's a. It's a which is is not manipulation.
Speaker 2:It's true, I mean that's exactly what needs to happen, right, yeah, and you know, you, that that doesn't mean that sort of the stereotypical letter writing, or you know that still does exist and can be really helpful Sometimes you'll. They'll write it out, the letter, the night before and it's like I'll have, you know, a dad come back to me and say, oh my gosh, I wrote this letter. I was so angry I didn't even realize how angry I was. I read it back and then this is what I came up with, my train of thought there.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I mean it's and it's strategy.
Speaker 2:I mean really what it is like we're talking about. How do we do this differently? How do we stop sort of this progressive disease from worsening to a level, you know, to a place that it does not have to go worsening?
Speaker 2:to a level, you know, to a place that it does not have to go Right and what's the best course of action here? And developing a really intentional, organized strategy, because pulling out of that chaos and sort of crisis and hypervigilance like Henry was talking about and oftentimes I think for me and for us that means pausing. It means pausing.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think it helps families know that there is a, like you said, there is a strategy, there is a plan, like there are tools that you can use and and guides, like yourself, that that we can trust to come in and help us through this process, like, and I think that alone knowing, like, oh, I can actually go in this with intentionality and help, and because I think I would imagine a lot of the families that you are working with there's just such, I don't know, maybe just confusion or just overwhelmed, just we don't know what to do.
Speaker 1:And then when you hear like, okay, not that it's cookie cutter, but there is an actual process and a plan and this is, and proven results, like here's what we've seen, like this, this is how it works. You know, and if you work this plan, you know, here's the, the, the chances of this working out as much higher or whatever it is. It just helps families be like oh, okay, I don't have to try to figure this out on my own. Henry, are there key components of like a healthy intervention product? I'm sure it varies based on the person, what they need and all that kind of stuff, but what are some of the components that you guys use there to make sure that that process goes well.
Speaker 3:And Drew, are you sort of talking about? What are the principles, that sort of guide any interventions?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think principles yeah just key components of an intervention process, like things that you would maybe employ in every intervention. And again, although it's unique, I'm sure, to the person, what are some of the things that you were just like? No, these are key pillars of an intervention that we'd have to have in place to make sure this goes smoothly or goes well, or that you guys just even philosophically believe in.
Speaker 3:Totally. I mean, if you think about what an intervention is in essence, right, it's a strategic, structured conversation that is really meant to move people along, sort of the people at the peak right where we can get them to access services. And then typically it goes down and that's where, ideally, people are in treatment and they can sort of engage in, you know, the clinical work that they need to do. But really, you know that's ultimately how I think about it, right? So we start with assessment and you know, part of that is just information gathering on what this person needs in terms of you know, the right treatment program. But for me it's also about understanding, like what does this person value, like what's important to them, right?
Speaker 3:Because I don't like starting with you know, can we appeal to what's really important to this person and how they've usually gone against their values in ways that they don't appreciate, you know, and how can we start to sort of elicit some, to be fair temporary motivation to change right so that they can access services that they need? And you know what elicits motivation to change. You know that temporary motivation to change, I mean sometimes that is leverage right, that which is the family saying we're no longer going to support you, harming yourself and harming us, and and you get to make a choice in that right. We can't force you to do anything, but you have to make a choice, given, given this new information about how things are, uh, and then you know, I I think it's ideally trying to sort of connect with the person you know the the human underneath all the sort of dysfunction, Uh, and you know, usually, uh, you know that's, that's a mixture of sort of empowering them to make the right choice.
Speaker 3:It's sort of creating a little bit of vision around what their life could be like and you know, and it's sort of sending the message to them that their family's behind them and we're behind them, Right, and we believe they can get better, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean, I don don't know, maybe this is wrong, but don't you feel like, like it feels cliche for me to say but but love is such a more powerful motivator sometimes. I know it's got to be. Sometimes we're gonna be tough and we gotta you know, like you're saying, madison, we gotta respect the limits we have. I think some families feel like we got to come in and we have to have all these ultimatums and stuff, but sometimes it's just, man, I love you, here's what I want for you, here's what I miss, here's what you know.
Speaker 1:Like, sometimes, that hearing a loved one just articulate some of those things can be more powerful than if you don't clean up, you're going to get cut off, which can be more powerful than if you don't clean up you're going to get cut off, which, like I said, I'm sure there's a place for that. But I mean, I think that might be one of the misconceptions is that there has to be this like, really like just drop the hammer. But what I keep hearing you guys say in our conversation is it's less about us versus that person.
Speaker 1:Like I keep hearing you guys say we like, we're in this, because even that feels loving like I'm not going to just target you, but then also the approach can be very, very loving and less like madison you're talking earlier, like the less of the dramatic scene where we got to come in and just really battle this out, whatever. Because I think a lot of families might even potentially be pretty non-confrontational as far as even getting to that point with the addict, like they've there's been years and years of not confronting behavior. Then all of a sudden they have to sit in a room and confront a behavior and it feels overwhelming to the pattern that they've already. I've already started, but I'm kind of rambling with this. But does that ring true? Like this whole, this, the approach of it feels more connected, more we, more loving than us versus them we're going to drop the hammer. I mean, madison, what do you think about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you bet. I mean, that's exactly it, it's, it's. Yeah. Sometimes we have to pull in those tools and say you know what? Like, these are the things that we can no longer provide you or we can no longer support you in or give you, but it's most, I would say, very, very frequently, if not most of the time, the intervention process goes much more quickly, much more smoothly than a family will anticipate. Oftentimes, just the simple gathering and intention and the fact that we love you so much. We obviously don't know what we're doing, because what we've been doing hasn't been working, and so we have this person here to be your advocate and to help us and you figure this out. Like, sometimes, that alone is enough. Oftentimes somebody will walk in the room and be like, okay, where am I going? Or like, or can I see what you know? What have you guys been talking about? And I think it's about involving involving us, the addict, involving us in the conversation, because we deserve to be involved, um, to the level at which it's helpful.
Speaker 1:Well, it's interesting you just brought up a memory when you said that, because in my, in my personal intervention, when I got to the intervention, it was almost a relief, like I was like okay time to get help.
Speaker 1:Like it like it was. That was my like life raft, like it wasn't like a surprise, it wasn't like a wonder what's going to happen Now. I was a little bit surprised at some of the things that they wanted me to to do next, but at that point I was fully surrendered. I was like I almost felt super grateful. I remember even telling my wife at one point. I was fully surrendered, I was like I almost felt super grateful. I remember even telling my wife at one point I just wish my friends would come do an intervention for me, and it was already been planned that day, and so it was like I was so to your point. A lot of times the family's level might be thinking oh man, how's this going to go when our loved one might be? That's what they're begging for and they don't know how to say it. Can you please come help me and give me, give me a path? Like this is obviously not working. Will you please help me?
Speaker 2:You know yeah, it's kind of like, hey, like we're all going to meet and we're going to talk about this, like we've got to change something up and we'd love for you to come, like we want you to be a part of the conversation. We don't want to talk about you, we'd rather talk with you and, like discuss this together. And you know that involvement and that collaboration and also nobody likes to be talked about behind their back, so, like I know that would get me in the room anywhere. Yeah, and I think, plan and not doing this without knowing exactly, sort of like, what the next steps are. I think that's where the interventionist comes in and, while I think that families are capable of having structured conversations on their own, typically when someone is at the point of calling and needing intervention, they should have a professional there to navigate.
Speaker 1:Definitely Well, and it just takes the family off the hook. The pressure of having to be that person. You get to now just be the dad, the mom, the brother, the sister, the friend. I mean you don't have to feel like I've got to drive this or I got to get it right, or like you can actually just kind of have yourself more in that moment too, and just you know well. So last question, and this has been just, I'm so grateful. I feel like there's so much more we can talk about and again, I don't want to presume, but I'd love to have you guys back and talk more about even just the continuum of care, and I just love the work you guys are doing. But I wanted to end with kind of an all skate for both of you, for the, for the person who might feel completely hopeless, for the, for the family members.
Speaker 1:We've talked a lot about family systems today, which I, which I love, I mean that's, I think that's so vital to this whole thing, Right, and but for someone who might be feeling hopeless, maybe, maybe overwhelmed I'm sure you get that a lot Like I'm, just I don't even know where to start. I'm overwhelmed, the chaos that addiction brings. You know the just the tornado of, you know all the destruction that can happen in a family for years. Right, it can be built up for years.
Speaker 1:What's kind of your, your message of, of hope, or even next steps? Like how, if someone's listening to this right now or they're watching and they're like man, I'm seeing so much of myself in this story and because I will say like I felt a lot of hope in this conversation, even just talking to you guys, like, oh, wow, like this is, I don't have to do this alone, there is a plan, there's a strategy, there's people who care enough, like there is light at the end of the tunnel for those who want it, so to speak. But what would? What would be your message of hope and next steps? I don't know who wants to start, but Madison will go, ladies first again, and then Henry you can wrap this up, but Ladies first Love it?
Speaker 2:I think I would. Just there's so many things I could say here and I think that the reality is is that you know, you're not supposed to know how to do this. This is not you know and I'll put an air quotes supposed to happen. Do not have to have all the answers right now. Like, just pick up the phone, just call someone, someone who's outside of the family, someone who's in a professional capacity it can be a therapist, you know and and just start somewhere. It's like that, what we say in the rooms. It's like one step at a time, one day at a time and it's going to be okay. Like I think that the fact that all three of us are sitting on this call with our own very unique and different stories it's like I could go into mine more at another time but the fact that we're all here, the fact that we're all helping and we have given purpose to this, I think that anyone can do that and, yeah, that's beautiful.
Speaker 1:I love that, Henry. What are you thinking?
Speaker 3:I mean Madison spoke to the first thing, which is, uh, there's no playbook for this, right. So if you're wondering why you don't know what to do, uh, just know that. Uh, why you don't know what to do, just know that you're not supposed to. You know, and it's okay, right, and being confused and scared and all those things is is you're not doing anything wrong and you know, I think. Second, you know, I think we always have to remember that addiction is actually very treatable, right, and if you actually look at the numbers, right, of remission rates, it is very treatable, right, and that's not always talked about as a fact, but there are treatments that do work and strategies that we can use to make the situation better.
Speaker 3:And I mean my final, just piece of advice. I think you know the recovery process for individuals uh, you know, with substance use disorders and for the family, uh, is really about returning to ourselves, right, not outside in, but inside out, and that is something that family members can start doing, regardless of whether their loved one is in recovery or not Accessing their own support, building their community, learning the skills that they need to cultivate resilience. That is possible and within their control, and there is a lot of freedom and empowerment in that. If we can recognize that, we can start now.
