Valiant Living Podcast
Welcome to the Valiant Living Podcast where we educate, encourage, and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom.
Valiant Living has been restoring lives and families since 2017 by providing multiple levels of care for men and their families. Fully accredited by The Joint Commission, Valiant Living has earned a national reputation as a premier treatment program, offering IOP, PHP, and recovery housing programs for men ages 26 and older. Founder and CEO MIchael Dinneen is a nationally recognized therapeutic expert, speaker, and thought leader in the behavioral health field.
On this podcast you’ll hear from the Valiant team as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at (720)-756-7941 or email admissions@valiantliving.com We’d love to have a conversation with you!
Valiant Living Podcast
When Both Partners Need to Heal: Navigating Recovery Together
The addictive patterns that tear relationships apart can actually become the path to deeper connection when partners learn to face them together. In this deeply moving episode, couple therapists Lana Isaacson and Jason Polk share professional wisdom and personal experiences about the complex journey of recovery within committed relationships.
They introduce the concept of "the addiction dance"—those unconscious, destructive patterns couples unknowingly co-create that keep them trapped in cycles of disconnection. Both therapists candidly discuss their own experiences with addiction and family systems, demonstrating how healing occurs when we move beyond shame to examine what drives our behaviors.
"The pattern is the enemy, not your partner," becomes a revolutionary frame that allows couples to stand together rather than against each other. This shift creates space for vulnerability, which both therapists identify as the essential ingredient for rebuilding trust. Through powerful examples, they illustrate how true healing happens when a partner's pain is fully witnessed rather than fixed or dismissed.
Particularly moving is the discussion about disclosure in recovery relationships—that terrifying process of allowing yourself to be fully known after years of hiding. As one partner shared, "When you experience love for the first time because they've seen all of you and still choose you...that's another level I want for everyone."
Whether you're navigating recovery as a couple, supporting loved ones through addiction, or simply wanting healthier relationship patterns, this conversation offers practical wisdom and profound hope. Call us at 720-756-7941 to learn how Valiant Living can support your journey toward authentic connection.
Well, hey, everyone. Welcome to the Valiant Living podcast, where we educate, encourage and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom. I'm your host, Drew Powell, and I'm a grateful alumni of the Valiant Living program. Valiant Living offers hope and transformational change to men and their families struggling with addiction and mental health challenges. So on this podcast you'll hear from the Valiant team, as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at 720-756-7941. Or you can email admissions at valiantlivingcom. We'd love to have a conversation with you, but for now, let's dive into today's episode. Well, Lana and Jason, thank you so much for being on Valiant Living Podcast. Really honored to be able to host you guys today and hear some of your story and the work you do. I'm curious, though how did you guys first begin working together and how did you guys team up?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, Lana was doing a presentation. What was the presentation called?
Speaker 3:Couples in Recovery. Okay, how to Help Couples in Recovery. Build a Secure Bond.
Speaker 2:Oh nice, ooh great title. Yeah, I know, I told you, so I was there, thank you, and it was a great presentation, thanks. And I was like a fan afterwards and I was like, hey, you know we're doing some of the same sort of things, let's team up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So what does that look like for you guys in your practice? So do you guys do private?
Speaker 3:now couples Like I'm just curious how that plays out. So, before COVID, we did some couples in recovery workshops. I had a workshop that I had launched called have Each Other's Backs Again for couples in recovery, and it was something that, yeah, I created from scratch and still, you know, drew from evidence-based practices and couples therapy and also addiction. And so Jason and I, when we could all meet in person that was, you know, pre-covid we were running some of those workshops and then and we both still had our own private practices- Okay.
Speaker 3:And then, since COVID I've only run a couple of workshops, but right now we share an office suite and so we, although we're not running the workshops yet, I would love to offer those again. Just yeah, I thought it was way I describe kind of how we work together is we both have our own practices but we consult in between clients as much as possible, or just sometimes, you know, just to connect personally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. Well, I imagine it helps you not to feel like you're having to do this alone, like I watch the therapist, the team of therapists here at Valiant, and especially during staffing, when they'll go through their client list and just kind of talk and help each other. I mean it's like I can imagine having a teammate just a bounce, like hey, this is going on. Can you help me understand what's really happening? You know, those types of things I've, I've, I bet, are pretty, pretty valuable. Yeah, therapists need support too. I hate I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't want to speak for the therapist, but a lot of the success rate for the clients that we have it really depends on how well that family system is able to come around that person who's in recovery, but also how much they're willing to do their own work, how much they're willing to kind of look at what parts they have to play in all this.
Speaker 1:And so having you guys here to kind of talk about this specifically um is really big for us. Um, I know in my story I shared a little bit before we started recording that my wife was a big part of our healing journey and without her being willing to do her own work, which she didn't have to do, I don't know that we would be where we where we are today, or or at least as far down the road. And so first of all, let me just start with a thank you. Thank you for the work that you do for couples like me who are just trying to rebuild and find freedom and peace, and, um, I'm sure there's long days, long nights and what you do, but um, but thank you, thank you for the work that you do.
Speaker 3:What drove pleasure yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Thanks. What? What drove this passion for you guys? Why did you, why did you choose this life Do?
Speaker 3:you want to go?
Speaker 1:first, do we have time for this? Yeah, I'll try to do like the abbreviated answer.
Speaker 2:So I've been divorced, my wife and I. We've been through couples therapy some good, some not so good. By the time we got to someone good, I was already emotionally checked out, but it made me think I was a therapist at the time. It made me think okay, I know what's good and I want to offer couples therapy. Moving forward, we got divorced.
Speaker 2:During that time I was a drug and alcohol counselor, but my journey was substances, so about 21,. I'm trying to keep this quick. I had a rock bottom alcohol, cocaine, everything. I was doing a lot of psychedelics at the time. So I got into meditation, eastern religion. So I went to the Denver Zen Center, or Zen Center of Denver, and I was like the youngest person there and I started sitting, I started working with my stuff. This was my journey. I didn't know about NA, I didn't know about AA and I started to get some freedom, some comfort. However, I thought I cured myself Right and I love the AA saying once you're a pickle, you can't go back to being a cucumber. And even at the Zen Center, gosh, I would go on a retreat. I would get drunk afterwards. One time I threw up on a space heater at the Zen Center right, wow, and I remember people-.
Speaker 1:Is this all while being a therapist? Were you a therapist already at this point, or was it pre?
Speaker 2:I was a drug and alcohol case manager.
Speaker 1:Gotcha.
Speaker 2:So, like cause, I was like I'm going to help other people, I'm going to help kids.
Speaker 1:We were a juvenile drug and alcohol program as a case manager, but I thought I was good, right Well that's why I wanted to ask because I relate to that A lot of times you can be in something doing a lot of good work but still not really looking internally like you need to. So I think that's a powerful part of your story. I appreciate you sharing that part, yeah, and probably just reflecting.
Speaker 2:I remember this one member was like Jason, do you have a drinking problem? I was like Jason, do you have a drinking problem? I was like oh, I'm a drug and alcohol counselor, right, I don't have a drinking problem.
Speaker 3:How dare you ask me that?
Speaker 2:And then, real quick, I'll wrap this up and turn to my recovery. I went to AA on my own but the same thing I was like, oh, I'm not as bad as these people, right. And then finally we say in AA, sick and tired of being sick and tired. And so I went back in and I did the steps and everything and I've been sober since. And so the whole time just kind of incorporating couples work and recovery, and then synced up with Lana during the time and she integrates it really well. So that's kind of how I got to working with couples and having the recovery bent on it.
Speaker 1:It makes sense. So many people I talk to that are in this space have some sort of personal connection with it themselves, which I think is really helpful to be able to relate and identify with people who are going through it. And I almost wonder if it's a bit of a rite of passage in the recovery journey to have to say that statement I'm not like everyone else, or I don't have a problem. Like, is it? I mean, do you hear that? Is it almost everybody?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it seems like that's like yeah you have to say.
Speaker 1:It's almost like when you hear someone say that, all right, good, All right, you're on the journey, hopefully you get past that part, but that's a big part of it. Is that that denial? I mean, when you said that I, I was like, yes, I remember being that guy. Like what am I doing?
Speaker 3:here. I don't belong here.
Speaker 1:It's kind of crazy when I look back on it that I was ever at that place, but yeah.
Speaker 3:So I'll just yeah kind of segue here with. I think where mine really starts is I was in my master of social work program clinical social work and I was taking a family therapy class. We had to choose like a specialty area to focus on and research, and so I ended up in the group on children of alcoholics and we were reading this book. It Will Never Happen to Me. Speaking of denial, Right right.
Speaker 3:And so I'm reading the book and thinking this entire book. This describes my family to a T. But how strange, we don't have an alcoholic in our family.
Speaker 3:Um, even though my parents were bar owners, bar and restaurant owners um, they also had real estate and um, but I just I didn't put it together because my dad was so extremely brilliant and successful and with my mom's help, she was, you know, the organizer and bookkeeper and she did so many things behind the scenes for their businesses. But I just remember thinking, yeah, this is really bizarre, like this is my family but no alcoholic here, right, right, and I would see my dad drink, but it didn't dawn on me that drinking at night, every night, that that was a problem, because I think in our culture it's so normal, like you need to unwind.
Speaker 3:You're an adult. You have the right to have a couple of drinks. No big deal. I didn't know the level of drinking he was doing at night, of course and then there was a crisis. He had a mental health crisis while I was in my maybe my second year of the program, where we that's when it kind of started coming out Like yeah, you know, my mom started kind of admitting like dad has something more going on with mental health. There's maybe maybe a drinking issue, we don't know, with mental health.
Speaker 3:There's maybe, maybe, a drinking issue, we don't know, um. So that led to um you know, not not yet my dad getting real help for the drinking yet, but um, eventually he did have a really profound health crisis where he it was a near death experience, um, and that led him in the hospital, and that's when I remember he told me that, even though the doctors didn't recommend it, he thought just stopping drinking was a good idea. I'm like that's awesome, dad.
Speaker 2:You know, whatever Wow.
Speaker 3:You know, wonderful, that's a great idea. And then, yeah, started going to AA and you know, to his credit, he was open. He was much more open and willing. I think that you know, near-death experience can help. Yeah, and he started going to meetings and even though I would say, you know, we only had about four healthy years, healthy-ish years, with him before he passed away, we still saw some change in him which was.
Speaker 3:That was wonderful. And then in terms of my mom's change and I'll talk about mine too here, because I'm realizing I'm neglecting a very important person hereAnon also my encouragement. And you know, I think that point there was still in terms of her role as a caretaker. It kind of shifted from, I think, covering up and just, you know, always trying to smooth everything out with my dad's drinking and some other out of control behaviors he had to.
Speaker 3:Then after his health crisis, then she really had to go into full like caretaker mode which was a bummer um, I've seen enormous healing and like transformation in my mom since my, my father's passing um, but I, there was a lot of healing that I did before he passed away. So I'll just say one last piece is when the near-death experience happened. That's right around the time I was working also as an alcohol yeah, substance abuse counselor in Love Doing Family Night. That was always my favorite night, of course, at night, of course, and really where I started getting help for myself was it was on I had.
Speaker 3:I remember I had two co workers who are in recovery, more AA guys and I. One day I decided I'm gonna just clean out the office and like make things really nice and organized for them. Well, they came into work and they didn't know where anything was and one of them kind of sat down in a gentle but firm way just said, like I think you might want to consider Al-Anon, you know, just kind of my. What I didn't see is my controlling, some of my controlling tendencies. Like I thought I was being helpful, right.
Speaker 1:Like a lot of Al-Anon folks were like yeah, I'm just going to make things easier to find.
Speaker 3:Well, they couldn't find anything, so they were pissed, of course, but it was good that I was in Al-Anon at the time when my father had his really big health crisis and I also was given the opportunity to tell my story as well at an AA Al-Anon. It was a potluck like a Friday night, yeah, so that was. That was pretty powerful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you're both of your stories is kind of bringing up something for me that I'd love to just dive into. When it comes to couples in recovery specifically, and that's where we're going to kind of focus on a lot of our time today. But and I I'm going to say this the best I can, and then you course, correct me right If I if I misspeak. But what I, what I've noticed in my own story and in people close to me, is that you've got these two people that are trying to navigate addiction, whether they know it or not, and they've tried to navigate it for a long time. Sometimes, you know, for me it was 20 years of addiction before I even had any labels or terms or it knew what it was.
Speaker 1:So here's my wife living with an addict that doesn't know he's an addict and having to develop or form her own survival skills on how to, like you know, just survive the world with an addict who can never get content and never can the void.
Speaker 1:So in her and she would say this if she was on the podcast there were ways of being that just became like her second nature for her. Um, and we see this a lot with our couples in recovery where it's like you may have and I'm just going to pick on the men because we're a men's program I'm sure it works both ways. But we have men that come here that have a very external issue, like something has happened in their life, like you said, a crisis or something unmanageable. They've got to go to help. Right, it's somewhat public, got to go get help. Right, it's somewhat public, got to go get help. But oftentimes what's left behind is a spouse, significant other who has developed their own addictions, their own codependency, their own whatever, to just navigate living with this addict. I'm sorry this is such a long-winded question.
Speaker 3:I'm just trying to give some context. This is great.
Speaker 1:But what I'm curious about is well, first of all, because there's so much wounding there, a lot of times with a traumatic experience whatever, that it can be very difficult for that you know whether it's the betrayed spouse or the you know to want to take a look at what has happened and formed in me over the course of this relationship.
Speaker 1:Um, because a lot of times there's just so much hurt or there's so much like well, he's got the problem, he's got the issue. And what I've heard our, our leader here, michael Dedeen, talk about and this is not from a place of shame or judgment, but oftentimes the, the spouse or the partner has more work to do than even the guy in recovery. The guy in recovery that's live, that's here in treatment. It may have been more loud and more external, but there could be some deeper issues left behind. And so this is the work you guys are in every day. Right, what do you say to the person that's listening right now or that's watching, who has, who is dealing with the trauma, the pain, the you talked about alan on my, my wife did that, the sn on stuff um, for the person who's hurting right now, it's like, man, I've got a father, a husband, a spouse or whatever it's in recovery. What? How do you encourage them to take that first step? Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:because it's like and I will say the last thing I'll shut up and let you guys talk because you're the experts. But I had no expectation for my wife to do any like. It was like, hey, this is on me. She courageously chose to and it's what I think saved our marriage. But a lot of people it's a big hurdle to get over to even want to take a look at what needs to heal in me. So there's a question in there somewhere.
Speaker 3:I just would love for you guys to riff on that, because I think it's important, right, yeah, absolutely. How do you?
Speaker 1:guys, I'm sure when people come to you they're already at that place where they're looking for help.
Speaker 3:But how do you?
Speaker 1:help that person, say, hey, yes, he or she has a problem, but let's look at what's going on here too, For sure.
Speaker 3:Well, I know, okay, I'll start. I just go right into the deep end here and throw a softball. No, it's great. This is like a million-dollar question.
Speaker 3:Sorry, it took me so long to get to it like a million dollar question, like it's sorry it took me so long to get to it, but I was trying to it's it's so important I think. I think the first thing is um meeting, meeting both people where they're at. So, um, I you know, oftentimes um one partner is in a treatment program and I'm meeting first with their spouse, who will call because she's trying to set up couples therapy or family therapy, when the whole family system needs to heal. And so I've met with that spouse and the and maybe their adult children, for example, or younger children.
Speaker 3:So, I think, first meeting them where they're at and their pain and validating that and really, you know, empathizing and honoring that and hearing their story, and so one it's a creative or it's kind of an expressive art, but it's also a deep trauma technique I use, which is sand tray, and so they'll make a picture in the sand with all these different objects and it's usually it's like a picture is worth a thousand words and I'll just say show me what life looked like with your loved one during his addiction, and it really can, I think, bring up a lot of emotion and also help people express things that are maybe they might feel shame or embarrassment or it might be too hard for them to share, and for so long they felt like they needed to protect their partner or their father or whoever it was with the addiction. So they've just learned how to censor their words. But, santra, they can just somehow. It removes these kind of defense mechanisms. It just makes it easier for them to show, right.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Thank you, and of course, at times I might share parts of my story, you know, to help them feel like they're not alone, and that I really. I think the message I tend to give to spouses and their children or family is you deserve support, you deserve healing, you deserve to know you're not alone, because this can feel so isolating Everything you've been through. And there are other people who are like you were mentioning to us earlier, Drew. There are some women you know, women or men are, you know, farther along in their healing journey and they would love to be a support to you and they were so helpful to me, and so that's part of how I partly how I get them in the door. Eventually I will want to help them. See that. I'll just share this.
Speaker 3:This is a quote by Michael Barnett. He's one of the experts in couple therapy, the model that I practice EFT and addiction. Eventually, I need to help the couple. See, the quote goes couples unintentionally co-create a toxic pattern that maintains relational distress and erodes trust and closeness. Partners are both unwitting victims and authors of their cycle.
Speaker 1:Wow, wow, that's really good.
Speaker 1:I got chills when you said that because it connects so deeply with me.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I wonder how couples without a bit of a reset when they've established the pattern for so long like when I look back on my story, I was so glad that I had the gift and didn't feel like a gift at the time but the gift of going to treatment because, if nothing else, we needed space, almost like a therapeutic separation, to work on ourselves so that when we came back together and we're still breaking pattern, we still see them come up all the time, because we had 20 years of establishing a way of being together.
Speaker 1:And when you read that quote, it just reminded me of like hey, that's part of the journey, is taking a look. And what I love about your response, lana, is that there's so much compassion in that and I want to hear, jason, what you would say to this. But it didn't feel like it's not a shame. Like hey, you need to look at what your role to play, and it's not that at all. I love how you said hey, you deserve to heal, you deserve to, you know, cause I think if people can get to that place, then they're more willing to say okay, you're right. This isn't about what I've done wrong for whatever. This is more about how do we break these patterns that are destructive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but you know, piggybacking on the cycles, you know, I think in the beginning you know, if we want to say I would say the sober partner, because that doesn't really define it, but kind of what you were saying, it's simple validation, right? I mean, this is a little bit of you know craziness, if you want to use that word, but then to identify the cycles, and you know of course you two end up here. This is your pattern, you know. We call it the understanding phase, right, when there's been some sobriety, maybe the smoke has settled a little bit, you know, and common cycles that I see can sometimes be the sober partner may show up as like a probation officer, right. The using partner is like the probationee angry teenager, whatever that is, you know, and it's probation officer meets probationee, right, and it is negative pattern, right.
Speaker 2:And if we want to have compassion, we can. Maybe you know was alcohol in your family, right? And if we want to have compassion, we can. Maybe you know was alcohol in your family, right. How did your parent respond to your dad using? If we want to do it that way, right, you know. So we understand a little bit of compassion, right? Or you know, maybe you are controlling gosh. It's not the best way to put it, but right here in the probation.
Speaker 2:Let's look at that. Where does that come from? And I think therapist we are not trying to be. You're doing that, you're wrong, what's wrong with you? It's like, of course this happens. Now the work is let's transform that dance right. Whatever that pattern is and that's one of the benefits of working with a couples therapist is that we have done this a lot. We know dynamics and we can identify the negative cycle. There's different languages. Eft has their own language. I'm trained in RLT, throwing acronyms out to everyone.
Speaker 2:And we're both trained in PACT and we're both trained in PACT right, and so there's different paths to identify the cycle. But it's really important for the couple to know this is our pattern and then have a game plan out of it. And then the idea is what can we do collaboratively? That's really the big key, so we spend less time there.
Speaker 1:I love that. It's funny. You said the word and I was literally my follow-up. Question to that is because you guys talk about the addiction dance and he said the word dance. Can you unpack that a little bit more? What does that look like? Because I think that's really important to understand, because I think people will be able to see themselves in this a little bit. But that's some terminology that you guys use in your recovery work, work, addiction dance yeah well, what is that?
Speaker 3:okay, um, I'll start and then, if you want to add something, so um you guys are even allowed to disagree on the popular.
Speaker 2:You want that'd be great, right, you are full of it. I can't believe.
Speaker 1:Sorry, she was way off on that one. Let me course correct that answer.
Speaker 2:Yeah don't listen to my, my colleague. Could you imagine?
Speaker 3:so addiction dance. So, um, of course, it can look, you know, different, different, um, I think, for every couple, but, um, I think, one I and and we, with all my couples, um, we look at their pattern and every couple, the best of couples, we all have some kind of negative patterns that we just, you know, we didn't we're, I think, might be based on when we don't feel safe, when we don't feel seen when we're in distress and if if you, you know, for anyone who grew up in a family where you didn't it wasn't encouraged or just wasn't the pattern of when you're in distress you can turn to a loved one for comfort, for support that it was safe to show, it was normal, it was healthy to show emotion.
Speaker 3:If you didn't have that, then when I look at a pattern, I think it's so normal that we're going to turn to other things. And when we do turn to other things and one of those other things I mean it's not always I'm turning to a substance, or porn, or food. Be, you know, for some partners, if they're really in a lot of internal distress, this might be more of the partner. Well, you know, I don't love the term codependent either, but if we just say that partner, they might be a little bit more obsessive or focusing on their partner, you know, maybe just instead of really looking inside and touching their pain, because that's too much so that just might be so foreign to them.
Speaker 3:They might not even realize what their pain is.
Speaker 1:They're suppressing how they're feeling because they're just used to managing this other person.
Speaker 3:Right, right which can also right. It can, yeah, help alleviate their stress or their pain.
Speaker 3:So I think, when I think of the dance, just as I was saying, with that, you know the definition by Michael Barnett the co-creating this toxic pattern. It causes this distress, it erodes trust and closeness. I think it's just any time partners aren't able to really, you know, go to each other and get some comfort, get some support, or let your loved one know I'm just hey, I'd really love quick, like a hug or just, you know, touching your partner or, you know, even, I think, if you're not with them at all, just to be able to calm. Even if you can just picture your partner or whoever is your source of support. It might be your sponsor if you're not yet in a relationship that really feels safe to turn to a loved one. But overall it's so.
Speaker 3:I guess one quick pattern is that I see a lot is on the outside. We'll say, with a lot of my couples on the outside, when you get caught in this pattern and it's really the pattern, that's the enemy. It's not either of you, it's, you know that both of you get caught in it. You, when you know one partner, you're in distress. You, you know, might tend to shut down, you might, so, you know, you might just turn to like kind of being on the internet a lot, or turn to alcohol or it could be healthy things like exercise, whatever it is the other partner. Then they see my loved one where is, where's my partner that I love? You know what's going on like.
Speaker 3:Or they might be in panic and terror, you know. If they're like, oh my gosh, this is happening again. And then they might get angry, um, and, you know, critical, or they might turn away as well. They might turn to um. As much as I want people to have support. If you're always turning to, I'll just say we're kind of describing I'm thinking about just a heterosexual couple. You know male partner turns away to some kind of addictive process behavior. Female partner turns to all of her girlfriends to complain about the male partner, but neither you know when do you come back together, when do you say, hey, that I was really worried about you, I was scared, or what happened?
Speaker 3:you know just then, um, so they need to repair, and if they don't, then you're going to. Really, I mean, what the cycle creates is just more suffering and alone.
Speaker 1:Yes, isolation, right. Well, I love how you said I wrote this down because I think it's so, it's huge. You said the pattern is the enemy, which I think that alone is a very profound thought, because it takes the bullseye off of each other, right. It takes the bullseye off of each other, right, when we're able to say, hey, you're not the enemy in this, but the pattern itself, the system that we've created is our enemy, and now we can confront with our fronts to this problem. It takes the emphasis off. I've got to fight my partner here on what's going on, but we've co-created, like the quote said, this pattern that has actually become our enemy. So now let's co-create a new way of being, and that's why we need you guys. We need people like yourselves that are helping us build these new neuropathways and patterns and systems, so that we can show up different. Because I can tell you, even on the other side of getting sober and you guys know this it doesn't naturally form those old patterns are right there, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Totally. Yeah, well, and real quick on that. Once you're deep family, you've been in the relationship for 10, 20 years, right? We revert to our old templates we learned growing up and if we're not intentional about that, then we go right back into those patterns.
Speaker 1:What you guys are saying too that I think is really important is sometimes I wonder if even words like addiction and you, I, you guys have been really hesitant to say words like codependency Sometimes these labels don't serve us all that well, because we go to a place in our mind of, oh well, that's not, I'm not an addict, that's not me, or I didn't like. One thing I really struggled with personally was I have a great family, like I was just with my parents last week. They're amazing humans that gave us so much love and care. And also there were some things that we didn't get that as adults we needed to go. But I had to really work through.
Speaker 1:I don't I don't want to look at that because I felt defensive of my parents, like whatever in my story. They stayed together and they loved us and provided for, they gave us all the things. It took me a long time to get past, like, oh, there's some things I need to look at here and not feel guilty Like that. I was going to somehow shame these wonderful humans that raised us. But once I was able to get past, I was like, oh, okay, you know, and then to be able to pass that down to my kids, to even have that conversation with my kids, who are adults now, like hey, I hope you noticed that your mom and I did the very best we could with you but also go to therapy Like go get whatever we didn't give you. Could you go like we give you full permission to go and find those things that we may have not been?
Speaker 1:able to give you, but it's sneaky right.
Speaker 3:That's amazing, Drew. Too few parents say that.
Speaker 1:Well, really, really cool. Thank you, I appreciate that I feel like it's hard for me to take credit, because that's part of what I've learned from people like yourself and Valiant. I would never have come on that on my own. That's part of what I've learned from people like yourself and Valiant. Like it's not, I would never have come on that on my own but but it almost relieves me of of the hey, I, I can't. I didn't give you everything you needed.
Speaker 3:And I did my best. I'm human. It wasn't because I didn't want to Right. You know, there's no parent who can give their child everything they need.
Speaker 1:Right. But all this conversation can be so sneaky because I'm not an addict, my parents weren't alcoholics or we didn't label it that, and so learning how to to kind of push past the labels and whatever and just say, okay, we all have these unhealthy escapes that we tend to go to.
Speaker 1:If we're not careful, let's right. Right, let's take a look at that. I'm curious, though, what the misconceptions around couples in recovery that's kind of what I'm getting at here is that first step of just being able to admit like, hey, there's something we need to look at here, there's something we need to confront? Are there any common misconceptions that you guys see come up quite a bit in this world and around these conversations?
Speaker 2:Well, real quick, based on what you're saying, not trying to just echo it, but it's well, I don't have, it's not that bad.
Speaker 1:Right, right.
Speaker 2:Right and my parents are good Right. This is a real quick sidetrack if you don't mind, Please you know the idea of.
Speaker 2:You know, we can love our parents and wish they would have shown up differently, right, that is a little different way of looking at it. But for me it's like, oh yeah, my parents were perfect, right. But kind of reflecting on it, learning on, it's like, hey, you know, wait a second, you know there's room for that, but I think learning hey, for me I could have got a little more guidance, nurture, limits, right, I can see how my parents didn't show up that way. And so there's less of shame on me, right, I still have personal responsibility. But it's not like, oh my gosh, I am so inadequate I stink, this is all on me. My parents were perfect, right. I think there's room to take a little bit of that shame off, like.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that. Okay, I love that it helps you breathe a little deeper and say yeah.
Speaker 2:And I still love them. I'm not blaming them Right. They're trying their best. I wish they would have shown up differently at times.
Speaker 1:I think that's really that's huge. That was that's been huge for me and some of my friends that have that have been in this space, and I'm really glad that you you went there, because I think that's a hurdle for a lot of people and maybe even one of the misconceptions that we're talking about misconception is.
Speaker 1:Hey, everything, this is my fault, because every I was given everything. And one of the lines that came back to me when you're talking that someone told me you're a valiant was and it may not be your fault, but it is your responsibility and you said that in your what you were just talking about, which like okay, yeah, there is a reason why I'm the way I am. I had to survive. There's a reason why I was leaning into that ego part of me that was helping me figure out how to navigate the world. And it's not all your fault. And, man, with the work that you do and the work that people like here at Valiant do, one of the first steps is just getting that shame shield to lower, like I'm a terrible person and how could I have let this happen? It's like no, no, no, wait a minute. How could you have not? Yeah, based on you know, everyone makes sense in light of their story, right, based on your story.
Speaker 2:Oh, Well, and you would say the shame shield for both partners.
Speaker 1:Good point. Good point Right Right. Because I know that a lot of the partners feel how could I have let this happen?
Speaker 2:Or how could I have participated. I can't believe I stayed Right and all that Definitely.
Speaker 3:Oh that's a big one, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the shame around even staying sometimes and rebuilding For sure.
Speaker 3:And yet I was just thinking about you know you're asking about some of the misconceptions so one I was thinking about just in general with relationships that it all relationships. It's really when this could be in a friendship.
Speaker 1:It's like if there is some kind of rupture you know I'm not saying go out and make that happen.
Speaker 3:Don't hear us say go manufacture a rupture If it does happen, or more often, it's just like a misattunement, or we're just not in sync or you feel hurt by your partner or your friend or someone not showing up for you in a certain way or saying something that just didn't feel, that felt really hurtful or insensitive. But that's normal, it's just we're not taught that that's normal and that it's okay to have those moments where they don't go perfectly. There are hurts. It's all about the repair.
Speaker 3:It's about having the courage to say hey, you know. However, you want to say it to your partner, sometimes it can be as just, if it is not a huge rupture, if it's just like you weren't there for me or you might not have known or something. I was I, but I was upset about that and I think it shows this real sign of strength in your relationship that you can have that honesty in a really sensitive way. It's always, can have that honesty in a really sensitive way. It's always, I think, ideally giving the other person the benefit of the doubt. You might not have known that, but I just want to let you know when that happened that did upset me or hurt me or I'd really love in the future if you could something like that.
Speaker 3:So that's one misconception that there should never be these moments. And yet the research this is Ed Tronick with mothers and babies. He saw like 70% of the time I think. He said moms weren't attuned to their baby, they weren't in sync, but then they did get in sync, then they repaired and they got back in this beautiful synchrony and they call that the love song. It's like baby or partner saying hey, I'm here, I want to be close to you like those bids for connection.
Speaker 1:So it's not a matter of keeping this constant state of connection at all times, it's how often you can get back. You can repair and get back in sync.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:I love that and you mentioned before we started recording. You're just touching on it. I wonder if you could go just a little bit deeper into. I know a lot of people feel the shame around man, especially with children. I just have royally screwed up and I've just knocked myself off of this pedestal of respect that my children held me on. And will they ever respect me again? Will they ever love me again? And so we go through all these shame narratives in our mind. But before we started recording and you started touching on it, there too, there's a gift in that for our children, isn't there Like showing up as a broken human and cause? I really wrestled with this and I had a therapist tell me early on it's like you in some ways did your kids a favor. Because you showed them what, because they did have you on this pedestal.
Speaker 3:For sure.
Speaker 1:But now they realize that you're a human and brokenness is part of like. Could you just talk about that, because I'm sure there's people listening or watching right now who are wrestling with in their family system and it could be with a spouse with a child or even with their parents, because I know for me, my parents were very proud of me and I thought, man, I just really messed that up and I didn't. I thought I did, but I didn't. But speak to that a little bit.
Speaker 3:Well, my yeah, gosh, it's a pretty profound question. So, yeah, I think part of it is giving. I think your modeling, it's okay to not be perfect, it's okay to struggle and actually, as you're saying, yeah, it is such a gift in so many ways. It frees your child from that unnecessary I think enormous pressure and anxiety. It helps them be human. It helps them be vulnerable.
Speaker 3:I haven't even used that word yet and I'm using that word in every one of my sessions, you know being vulnerable, if you want to call it authentic, but it lets your child know or your partner know because this is also a wonderful way to get out of these cycles is just like saying hey, I think I messed up there. Or I could see the look on your face and you look upset. I'm wondering if I you know there's something, I miss something here, if I just said something or you know, or what's happening for you right now.
Speaker 3:But overall, just you know, in terms of the gift, yeah, letting partner, who doesn't have the addiction you know, also get help and do their work. As you were saying, michael Deneen, and like Jason and I, we also we can definitely see that partner also has a lot of work to do as well, also has a lot of work to do as well. And yet we don't want to just, you know, pass the blame or say you know, yeah, you have more issues, or you know, or it's equal. It's just we both, you know, we both, you know, had went through this trauma of addiction. We both need help with it. And even if it's not like when I went into Al-Anon, I had grieved my father at that point. Even if it's not like when I went into Al-Anon, I had grieved my father at that point. Yeah, but I was having some anger toward other people in my life, other people, and I just realized, yeah, I need some tools and I don't want to walk around with all this anger.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh man. So the tools were incredibly helpful for me so good yeah.
Speaker 1:So I'm having an issue right now, which is we're therapists. Well, this is free therapy, this is free therapy.
Speaker 2:I'm not trying to minimize, please, please do. Well, I was going to be sarcastic. My issue is.
Speaker 1:I'm not even halfway through my list of questions here because this is so good. Thank you, guys for sharing this and, if you've got the time, I would like to go into some other areas here around healing and rebuilding trust, and this might end up I don't want to presume, but we might have to do like a two or three-parter on this couples in recovery because it's so rich, it's so good. But I do want to get to the healing and how do we begin to rebuild trust? Right? So, like there's, we could do 10 parts on what we just were talking about.
Speaker 1:Like just those recognizing the addiction, like all that. But for the couples that you're seeing now, who are in it and are saying, okay, we want to recognize, that you know, it's the system, the pattern that's the enemy, you know it's the system, the pattern that's the enemy.
Speaker 1:It might seem like a really long, daunting road of repair and trust building. And it might be right. I know that I have close friends in my life right now that would say for themselves, like I don't know that I want to do that work. I don't know that I want to. But for the couples that do like what, how do you encourage them? What they're in the beginning stages? How do you begin healing? How do you begin rebuilding? Rebuilding trust and that's probably a whole nother.
Speaker 3:10 part Great question no, this is great.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll try to say a couple of things. And going back to accountability, you know, I think, for the partner, the using partner, whatever you want to describe it, but if there can be some humbleness, some acknowledgement, right, which is oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, this must have been blank for you. You know, horrible. I've seen that, you know, go a long way in sessions. But I think the initial solution to rebuilding trust is, you know, let's think about one of the ways you two ended up in a cycle is generally not communicating, right, things are tough. I'm just going to have a couple nightcaps two or three or 10, you know, instead of rolling on my sleeves and really, you know, address what's going on with me or the relationship. So I think we'd be building trust. Here it is. It's simply communication, right, but by that I mean openness, collaboration. You don't have to share your therapy sessions. We don't want your partner to be a therapist, but the more you can share, the better.
Speaker 2:Because when we know there's less things, we make up, right. When we don't know what's going on, we make up, and it's always the negative. There's less things we make up, right. When we don't know what's going on, we make up and it's always the negative, right? I always tell couples. If my wife Jess isn't talking to me, right, I don't think, hmm, she must be writing me love letters right now. That's not the story you write. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I'm like what did I do? What's going on? Is she okay? Are we? You know, like all that stuff. So I think you know the basis is collaboration and communication. I know that's a very simple answer, but I think it's important to keep it simple.
Speaker 1:It's a simple answer, but it's maybe one of the hardest things to actually walk out about.
Speaker 1:Because even as you were talking about that, I was like man. Why is it so scary for me still to allow myself to be vulnerable with my wife, to allow myself to say, man, I'm really scared Like I'm. I have I fear right now about our finances and my ability to provide for our family. I have fear, you know why, like it's so, and out of everybody in my life still she's still the one that I'm. I'm.
Speaker 1:I have to force myself to say I'm going to allow myself just to tell you and you know I, that just happened this morning. I sent. I'm going to allow myself just to tell you and you know I, that just happened this morning. I sent. I'm doing a talk in a couple of weeks and I really care about my family endorsing it's their story too, so I want them to endorse if I'm giving a talk Like. So I sent it to my two adult children, but I didn't send it to my wife and I knew I needed to and I was going to in my defense, was going to. But I realized this morning I'm afraid, I'm afraid of her not liking it, I'm afraid of her what her response would be. And she mentioned to me very lovingly this morning. I know you're going to be talking. I'd love to know what you're going to be talking about and I was like I actually have a full manuscript that I haven't sent you yet, because it's scary.
Speaker 3:She matters more than anybody.
Speaker 1:She does, she does. It's like I could have got done in my past life. I could have got done preaching to a room of thousands of people, and when I come off the stage there's one person. I'm looking out of the corner of my eye on what she thinks, and it's so hard sometimes too for that person to depending on what's going on behind the scenes. They also struggle to affirm If they're seeing destructive patterns. I know in our story it was tough for her to affirm the external projection because she could see the internal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So she felt like I can't. Yeah, so it's just so. She felt like I can't yeah, so it's just all that to say.
Speaker 2:I'm affirming that it's scary. Well, I want to affirm you, saying it's scary, I was afraid. This is really important, especially for males. This is not our default. We can talk about family of origin, we can talk about culture, but right there, that's recovery.
Speaker 3:I'm scared.
Speaker 2:Yeah Right, so huge, but it's so hard for us to do. It's hard for me to do right.
Speaker 1:It's so unnatural for me, yeah, yeah. Toy, but that's recovery.
Speaker 3:And yet you just did it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3:Live. Yeah, that was amazing. Wow, wow, wow. I feel very safe.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I forget there are other people listening. I feel very safe talking with you guys.
Speaker 3:I get free, free therapy here, but yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, it's something that's a it's a. Well, you said the patterns you have to relearn right and to put together.
Speaker 3:So I think that first step of even obviously you've done such tremendous work, true that you can even, you can even touch your fear, you can even admit you have this emotion, and then for you to be even braver and admit what you just did, about how I can preach to I forget how many people you said but to share this manuscript with my wife, because her opinion matters more than anybody yeah you know it's so brave and it's also that is like that is the you can call kind of a secret ingredient to building trust, to really restructuring your bond as a couple, for both of you to be able to share your deepest fears.
Speaker 1:Well, that's where the truth that's what we were lacking in our connection and our we call it our first marriage, the first staff of life marriage Cause we really lacked in that, the intimacy of being able to connect around the deeper feelings.
Speaker 1:You know, for her to say hey, I'm just the, go along the Enneagram nine, go on to get along. Maybe if, if this next thing brings him happiness, he'll finally be the thing that you know. So I'm just gonna keep trying to give him what he wants. Give him what he wants and, you know, never worked right. And so it's like um, yeah, I mean, I think that's part of the, the work that that has to, has to be done.
Speaker 1:You know, in those situations and I'm grateful for you saying that, and I feel like there's so much, so much more work to be done, but lacking that connection right, Lacking that intimacy of here's how I'm feeling right now we start, we don't do it as much. Now I don't want to pretend that we're doing it a lot, but when we first started in recovery together, we did that um, doing it a lot. But when we first started in recovery together, we did that um, fanos are you familiar with the fanos? The check-in, the feelings, the affirmations, the needs, the, the what was, the oh, I'm trying to remember um, and then sobriety.
Speaker 1:So we would go through this every night and it was a tool that would help us because, especially for me, the affirmation part was great because, it was, like you know, especially coming out of rehab like I don't know if I've ever done anything right ever, you know. And then for you to kind of have those moments where like hey, here's what I'm feeling right now, here's what's coming up, but those tools exist out there that can help couples kind of, you know, establish these new patterns To check in.
Speaker 3:Yeah, on a deeper level and just to have some kind of structure to know like, yeah, what should we talk about? What is a deeper check-in than what so many couples do you talk about work, your kids or you know logistics but to talk about your internal world?
Speaker 3:and to know that this is what is going to bring us closer. So many couples say they want closeness. You know, but they don't know how to do that, what to talk about or, and as well as knowing the incredible benefits of turning to your loved one, not waiting for them to open up and be vulnerable first, but, that either of you can do that. So if it would be okay, you tell me in terms of time, I'd love to talk about trust a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, please. I saw you writing feverishly over there.
Speaker 3:I'm like I want to know what she's writing on her notepad, but also I'm just like I just want to say, but also I'm just like, Ooh, like I just want to say, like when you opened up with your fear, that just like touched my chest, like my heart, my, you know, it was like, oh, like that was big, you know, and that brings people closer, I think, as well.
Speaker 1:I would say just real quick to that. I think so. We. We went through a full disclosure process that was just scary as hell, I mean because here's a guy like me who just has never fully allowed himself to be known, ever to anybody Like performance.
Speaker 3:Like a lot of men, wouldn't you say, Jason Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So here I am going to write. This end up being a 20-page single-spaced document of anything, since I can remember since middle school that I'm going to read to my wife, not knowing how she was going to respond or receive, or not knowing what life would look like after this, but knowing this has to be done for both of us, because if we're going to move forward in connection and intimacy, we have to.
Speaker 1:she's got to know me and I've got to know her and I've got to give her the choice to re-up with this person that she really hasn't known because I haven't allowed myself to be known. I will say after that so a lot of the guys that are in here are going through similar things and it is tough. We take lie detector tests, we I mean it's. But now on the other side of it, I almost have this like opposite fear of now that there's this open channel of honesty.
Speaker 1:I'm freaked out if there's ever any slight disconnect, because I don't like the way it makes me feel to carry, because I used to carry so many secrets and so much manipulation. So now it's like, even if my schedule changes, it could be something simple I'm going to this restaurant, I'm going to that restaurant. Sometimes I'll say, hey, just by the way, we're going to this spot and whatever, because I don't want her to think for one minute that I'm not, that there's that, that disconnect. And I think when you fu, when you get to that place of freedom it's not perfect all the time, but when you get a place of freedom of this is what it feels like to be known and then to actually experience love for the first time because you're like oh, this person still chooses me and she's read the document or heard the document.
Speaker 1:And she still says I'm going to choose to love you. That is such another level that I can't even explain that I want for everybody on the planet. I want them to know which is the work that you help us with every day.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, talk about trust. Well, actually we were just talking about this earlier that there are three stages in EFT work and that second stage is the sharing your deepest fears. It's really like you know, will you love me if I share all parts of me? Will you love me if I share all parts of me, if I share the parts, the hidden parts, that I don't even want to look at, that I don't like about myself?
Speaker 3:And if you can have that support from a therapist to help you do that, if you're not able to do it alone, just as a couple, just how unbelievably transformative it is for you, like you're saying, drew, that that's exactly where the bond can be restructured. You know from being able to do that. I think where a therapist like Jason or I can help is there's a lot of groundwork that needs to be laid before we would ever, you know, walk a couple into that really sacred space and help them be that brave and open up. And I also want to make sure that the partner can handle that, will be able to respond. It doesn't mean that they're going to we can't control exactly what they're going to say but that we've been able to check in with the partner throughout the process to make sure that they really do want to hear and see all of you, that they want, they really want to know.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad you said that because I think it would have been reckless to leave that out and I would say from my, from my seat and experience, it would be very. You need people guiding you through this process. You're absolutely right, disclosures that are done on their own very hazardous. So we need people like you helping us know, because in mine I had a therapist that was actually helping me craft all the language and man, we went through so many revisions that it's scary to know what that first. If I would have done the first draft it would have been pure intentions but it would have been harmful.
Speaker 3:It really would have without the help of therapists like yourself. So thank you for bringing that up.
Speaker 1:Don't do that. Plus, give yourself the gift of not doing it alone, like, why would you want to do it alone? Yeah, for sure. Anything else on that, on on trust and healing and well, I wanted to.
Speaker 2:Sorry, were you going to say something later?
Speaker 2:Well, I just want to talk about you know, cause Valiant and men's recovery I just want to talk about, you know, because, valiant and Men's Recovery. I have found part of a I don't know what to say impediment for men and this is culturally also. We learned this growing up is, first, awareness of feelings. Right, I want you to talk about feelings, but sometimes that's a big task because first you got to be aware of your feelings, right? I wanted to ask you, drew, how did you start to become aware of those things we call feelings?
Speaker 1:Well, one tool that was really helpful for me.
Speaker 1:Thanks, for asking that, by the way, I was blessed before I was ever in recovery. Well, one tool that was really helpful for me thanks for asking that. By the way, I was blessed before I was ever in recovery or had any language around addiction to have a therapist in Nashville, where I live, by the name of Chip Dodd. I mentioned to you guys earlier. He wrote a book called the Voice of the Heart and it's all about understanding the language of the heart and he's developed the system around the eight core feelings. So if we were in a session, he's like, drew, how do you feel? And I went off because obviously you can tell I'm verbose, so I went off on whatever he's like. He would put the eight. He had a laminated thing on the floor. He's like nope, there's eight. I need you to tell me one of these eight.
Speaker 1:What he was helping me do was he's helping me develop a language for feelings that I didn't have. Okay, so I'm. What is this feeling? I'm actually sad because with each feeling there was an impairment and there was a gift. So, from for like loneliness, for example, I was surrounded by people all the time. I would have never said I feel lonely, never. But as I started doing the work, I realized, man, there was a deep. There was a deep loneliness and the reason why I was able to recognize it, because the impairment of loneliness was apathy.
Speaker 1:And I was feeling apathy around a lot of different things in my life. My calling my. You know all those different words, so I will say that was probably the the first step and just getting some language Like sadness was a really tough one for me to access Like I just seven on the Enneagram.
Speaker 1:I just suppressed pain and sadness, did not want to feel it, just keep moving forward. And so to be able to look at those eight loneliness, fear has been a big one for me, fear I never allowed myself to feel before. It's probably the one that's easiest to access for me. Now in recovery, I feel a lot of fear, a lot. So anyways, that was helpful. Gladness is on that list too, so I was able to say I feel glad, I have some gladness, I've got anger, I've got these different things.
Speaker 1:So that was Very cool, yeah, but thanks for asking that question, I still feel like it feels a little more methodical sometimes than than than free flowing for me, as far as, like, I have to use the tool because I'm emotional and I'm a feeler. I don't know what the word is, clinical, I don't know, but it's like I have to get out a sheet of eight feelings and I have to look at them and I have to examine it, like I almost have to get out of myself for a minute.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because if I just go based on what I feel, I need a framework.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, great, well, and I want to share too. You know, expressing feelings in an open and supporting environment is a way to bring connection for couples, and I just want to highlight a reason why.
Speaker 1:Okay, so very cool why?
Speaker 2:do we do this feeling stuff?
Speaker 1:right it's true feelings.
Speaker 2:I'm a man right.
Speaker 3:Go.
Speaker 2:Broncos, let's dominate.
Speaker 1:Feelings of anger come up, yeah, cool, yeah, cool, yeah, well, and I think at the end of the day we say around here a lot and I think it's pretty common, but the opposite of addiction is not sobriety.
Speaker 3:It's connection.
Speaker 1:It's connection. So at the end of the day our why is well? If we don't stay connected to how we're feeling, we're probably going to end right back up in addiction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:Because that was the thing that was keeping us from feeling what we need to feel. And I said before on the podcast, I didn't have panic attacks until I got into recovery. Not that that's a shining advertisement for recovery. But I got to where I was grateful because I was like, oh, I'm feeling, I'm alive right now.
Speaker 3:Right and my body's telling me something important. I'm having a panic attack because there's something really scary and I need some support, comfort, guidance. I need something here and we're just not meant to be alone, like that whole myth of you know the rugged individual. We're not stronger alone. There are so many things that I've been able to accomplish in life because I had support. I had mentors, peers, you know, or I just text a bunch of my mom friends and they text me back and I can just do so much more when I'm able to turn to other people. Can I just share a couple more thoughts? Okay, thanks, just about in building trust again.
Speaker 3:So one thing that I didn't mention, because when I think about my recovery, I think more about Al-Anon but this is not uncommon that a lot of children of alcoholics, that we might develop a different kind of addiction, and so for me it was more around work. That was one of mine. But I just was thinking what helped me rebuild trust with my husband? Because there was a period of time I was coming home late. I would, you know, you know, call and say, hey, I'm, this is, I'm even thinking before texting, but calling and like, yeah, I'll be home you know what, at whatever time, and I always thought I could just do one more thing and, of course, that that you know hurt my husband so much and that broke trust. So I think the opposite of that of being so inconsistent and unpredictable is I need to be super reliable, just like you were saying, drew with your wife.
Speaker 3:So I have to set limits when I structure my schedule. I'm just a lot better with setting boundaries and when I'm not or when I slip up, I know to acknowledge it and apologize. And sometimes, you know, we all have blind spots and so sometimes my husband might need to remind me. But overall I think I'm so much more aware and I think the pieces before that for even being able to behave before you make the behavioral changes. I think is really understanding the impact of your behavior. So there's that saying like you know, we focus on the drinking but we forget to, like, explore the thirst.
Speaker 1:You know we don't. I've never heard that. I love that yeah.
Speaker 3:Thanks, thanks. So just knowing like, well, why was I working so much, what was that about? Thanks, so just knowing like well, why was I working so much, what was that about? Or why does our loved one turn to, whatever their coping behavior is? Yeah, and while I think, definitely as a couples therapist, that we don't want to pathologize, we don't want to shame, but we also need our couples to know their impact on one another, the unintentional harm that their behavior, their addictive behavior, could be causing.
Speaker 3:And sometimes it might not be considered addiction, but it could be anger or criticism, but that has an impact. And then the second piece is acknowledging the pain. And I think there's nothing that builds trust more than if you have someone in your office, you have a partner who they you know the therapist encourages them that to finally share. This is the impact, this is the pain that I've been through, and if the partner it's not just about saying these, you know the perfect words to try to, you know be able to rebuild trust, I think the most powerful thing a partner could do is actually let their partner's pain wash over them and show that emotion back.
Speaker 3:So I always remember in a this is a couple's workshop and we had this space and we just went through the exercise. It was my husband and me and I shared something that he, that we had just not been able to heal from. That I kept, we kept coming back to, I kept and he kept saying, well, why can't you get over this? You know what's what here, and I couldn't let it go because I never felt like he got my pain. But in that moment, you know, with that exercise, I mean he like totally took in my pain, was bawling, just looking at me and I haven't needed to revisit that topic anymore, you know, because he totally got it.
Speaker 3:So I think you know being able to let yourself feel what your partner is feeling, show them that empathy, like that's what empathy is. It's not a one sentence, it's not a quick. I said I'm sorry. You know it's really letting someone else know, letting you know doing the. It does take some effort to put yourself in somebody else on trust where he says you know, attunement is the most important skill in building trust. So we're never, you know, nobody can attune all the time. But as much as possible, whether this is with your partner or your child and they, you know they want to share something with you, especially if they look like they're in pain or upset or something, you do want to try to turn to them if you can. But even if it's a happy moment, the more that you turn toward them and respond in a way that shows you're in sync, they matter. That rebuilds trust.
Speaker 1:Well and not trying to not feeling like you have to fix it, which is a gift that my wife has started giving me because historically I haven't been a safe place for her to process how she's feeling or her emotions. And when she does I immediately go into well, this is, we need to fix it, or that's in the past. She would always kind of half-heartedly say that I didn't have a rearview mirror like I.
Speaker 1:just there was no past for me it's just like everybody, just keep looking forward, go, just move fast. But the gift she would give me is like hey, I need, I need to share, you share something with you and I and I don't need you to fix it, and that was actually and she wouldn't say it condemningly.
Speaker 1:it was just like helping me wrap my mind around. Oh, just a tune. It actually relieved my pressure of like, oh, I don't need to come up with a solution for this, I don't have to fix it, she just needs to feel this and say it. Period, it's great. So not to switch gears too soon. Is there anything else you guys want to say on that trust building? Because I want to get to one other thing before we wrap. But I think I hear a lot with couples in recovery and it's the fear around relapse. It's the fear around. Hey, I think I want to work through this. I think I want to, but I'm so afraid of being hurt again. Afraid of being hurt again. You know, you hear the statistics, you hear the, and it's not always promising. And so for the couple that's listening, or the person that's listening, he's like man, I love this person, I want to do the work, but I'm so afraid that a relapse is is in my future. What do you say to that? That's tough, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I would say first validate it. Yeah, of course. Yeah, Of course you're scared right. And to provide space for that, I'll just give a real simple thought. I haven't thought deeply about this, but I think you know, david, recovery and recovery is something that we can feel, we can intuit right, if we know our partner is on recovery right, and then that can go a really long way and so maybe there is a relapse.
Speaker 1:But if someone started recovery, it's more of a relapse than you know a use, if you want to call it that. Yeah, yeah, that's good, that's good.
Speaker 3:Um, I think I I would definitely um validate.
Speaker 2:You can say like I'm full of crap. Yeah, it was kind of a weak answer, Jason.
Speaker 3:That's where I would start, for sure.
Speaker 2:Um.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because, as we were just saying, it's the attuning. You hear someone is afraid and that's only going to help connection if at first you start with validation. I think the other piece that I think is really important is, just as a lot of clients, clients, before they leave a treatment program, they have a relapse plan. They have you know who are they going to call, where are they going to go, what do they need. You know they have a lot of tools that they know that will help them get back on track. It's also helping the partner feel like they're a part of it, so they don't feel that sense of helplessness or out of control, that you know this really scary thing, this trauma, could happen again to both of them and that so they need the partner needs to know they need to be, you know, included and informed.
Speaker 3:What is what, what is the plan that you have? Not that they're telling that, not that they're critiquing or editing it like they let you know their, their, their partner in recovery there, whether it's their counselor, their sponsor, whoever like, help craft that, but it's knowing what it is and also what their role could be. How can they help, support their loved one? What would not be supportive and, I think, asking the partner, too, what I think the loved one, so they don't feel like they're just this passenger you know, along for this crazy ride.
Speaker 3:Again, like, well, what would help you also feel safe? Because it's all about how can we create safety? We can't have connection if we don't have safety. True, so what's going to help you feel safe? The last piece, um, and I don't have this, um, I'm not sure how to say this exactly and this probably differs for everyone, but I think talking about other levels of care or other supports, because to me, a relapse just says you know that one, I think one message is that we need to make your program more robust. We just we need some other supports.
Speaker 3:I mean, in some cases you're just human and you know you just slipped because that you're human, but other times it's like we really need to talk about other levels of care or other supports for you as well. And that willingness not like you know I'm willing it's on paper, but then it's well, give me one more chance, you know, and always, yeah, the person finding an excuse or a reason. And then the last part I'll just say is relapse for both partners. Again, like I really want to emphasize that, even though we haven't talked that much today about, well, what is the program that the other partner works on? I, you know, I definitely I had to do my work and it was incredibly beneficial for me. But just really, you know, knowing that when both people are doing that personal work and ideally couples work as well so they can really strengthen their bond and do recovery together too that everyone's going to benefit that way, that's beautiful, thanks.
Speaker 1:Y'all this has been incredible. Thank you so much for doing this and sharing your work with us and your passion and what you do. It's very helpful. How can we find you? People are wanting to work with you and do couple stuff, and I know we refer out a lot of people that post treatment that need to do couples work. What's the best way to get ahold of you guys?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll go first. Colorado Relationship Recovery is the name of my counseling agency, and best way to do is go online coloradarelationshiprecoverycom. Okay, easy enough.
Speaker 3:And I have a super creative name for my business, which is lannaisaksoncom. Hey, I love it. In marketing I'm more clear over cute any day, like give me something clear, yeah, that's great, yeah, so my website and my email and phone number as well are on my website and please feel free to reach out.
Speaker 1:Great, great. Well, this has been helpful for me. I feel like I need to pay you guys for this therapy. I want to call my wife right now and do some attunement work. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and for the work you do day in, day out. It's work that I believe really matters, and so I'm really grateful. Thanks for sharing today, yeah.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure.
Speaker 1:Well, we appreciate you listening to this episode of the Valiant Living podcast and our hope is that it helped you feel educated, encouraged and even empowered on your journey towards peace and freedom. If we can serve you or your loved one in any way, we'd love to have a conversation with you. You can call 720-756-7941 or email admissions at valiantlivingcom. At Valiant Living, we treat the whole person so you not only survive, but you thrive in the life you deserve. And finally, if this episode has been helpful to you, it would mean a lot to us if you'd subscribe and even share it with your friends and family. You can also follow along with us on Instagram and Facebook by simply searching Valiant Living. Thanks again for listening and supporting the Valiant Living podcast. We'll see you next week.
