Valiant Living Podcast
Welcome to the Valiant Living Podcast where we educate, encourage, and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom.
Valiant Living has been restoring lives and families since 2017 by providing multiple levels of care for men and their families. Fully accredited by The Joint Commission, Valiant Living has earned a national reputation as a premier treatment program, offering IOP, PHP, and recovery housing programs for men ages 26 and older. Founder and CEO MIchael Dinneen is a nationally recognized therapeutic expert, speaker, and thought leader in the behavioral health field.
On this podcast you’ll hear from the Valiant team as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at (720)-756-7941 or email admissions@valiantliving.com We’d love to have a conversation with you!
Valiant Living Podcast
Supporting Friends in Recovery & the Enneagram with Jackie Brewster
Supporting loved ones in crisis is no easy feat, and in this thought-provoking episode of the Valiant Living podcast, I, Drew Powell, open up about my personal experience alongside special guest Jackie Brewster. We share the heartfelt journey of helping my wife, Jamie, through a tumultuous period of emotional turmoil while I was in rehab at Valiant Living. Jackie and her husband, Steven Brewster, were pillars of strength and compassion for Jamie, providing her with a safe haven when she needed it most. Our conversation dives into the crucial elements of creating a supportive environment, emphasizing the power of presence, neutrality, and undistracted communication.
Join us as we explore the profound role of personal boundaries, faith, and surrender in managing emotional stress. Jackie and I discuss the delicate art of maintaining healthy relationships amidst recovery by building trust and understanding past traumas. We highlight the immense value of holding space for friends and family, offering support without letting their struggles consume our own well-being. Personal experiences are shared, shedding light on overcoming feelings of disqualification and the transformative power of supportive relationships in one's healing journey.
Listeners are invited to discover how tools like the Enneagram and attachment theory can foster self-awareness and connection. We examine how these frameworks allow us to understand the motivations behind our behaviors and fears, paving the way for personal growth and deeper empathy in relationships. From exploring addiction and coping mechanisms to the dynamics of attachment, this episode is a testament to the mission of Valiant Living: uplifting individuals towards peace, freedom, and thriving lives. We encourage our audience to seek support, establish boundaries, and embrace the power of grace in their personal journeys.
Well, hey, everyone. Welcome to the Valiant Living podcast, where we educate, encourage and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom. I'm your host, drew Powell, and I'm a grateful alumni of the Valiant Living program. Valiant Living offers hope and transformational change to men and their families struggling with addiction and mental health challenges. So on this podcast you'll hear from the Valiant team, as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at 720-756-7941. Or you can email admissions at valiantlivingcom. We'd love to have a conversation with you, but for now let's dive into today's episode. Jackie Brewster, thanks for being on the podcast. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:It's like old friends forever I know, who knows where this is going to go. It could go off the rails. I'm going to try not to get emotional on this podcast, but I'm not going to promise you anything.
Speaker 2:Okay, I welcome tears. That's what I say to my clients I welcome your tears All right.
Speaker 1:I probably I don't know I'll actually shed tears, but I have deep feelings around you and your husband, steven Brewster. Can we mention him by name?
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Um, and so this podcast is kind of a two parter. Okay. First part I want talk about is how to walk alongside friends and family when they're in rehab and treatment, and then it also just so happens that you're an expert coach guide in the Enneagram, which I think is also very helpful for people that are on this journey, and so those two things may not necessarily go hand in hand, but it'll be a two-parter. The reason why I'm emotional is because when I went to valiant, you and your husband were, um, just absolutely I don't even can't even think of the word vital in walking alongside my wife. Um, it was the most traumatic and devastating season of our life. She felt like she didn't have many places to go and turn. I'm off in denver trying to just get my head screwed back on straight. I just remember steven every time he would text me.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I call him bruster, I don't want to call him steven right now, but every time bruster would text me, it was always just Brewster. I don't want to call him Steven right now, but every time Brewster would text me, it was always just you got to stay. You got to stay and I'm like what is he talking Like? I didn't realize back home everyone saw me as such a flight risk and it was almost pissing me off. I was like dude, I'm here, what do you mean? Like he's like just stay, just stay, do the work. Well, I'm like well, how's Jamie, how the whatever? He wouldn't give me any information. To just stay, they're fine, we're looking after you. Guys walked with Jamie so closely during that season of her absolute Like it was just brokenness, it was she, just she would describe it as just she felt like she was dying.
Speaker 1:So thank you, You're welcome. I've said this before, but that's I'll never be able to thank you guys enough before. But that's I'll never be able to thank you guys enough. You guys are lifelong friends. You've hired me, you believed in me. I mean, it's like at this point, you've checked every box. You've hired me more than once.
Speaker 2:You did just fire me before Christmas, though, which I thought was wow. You said that you knew six months ago, and I just held on and I was like oh no, it was great.
Speaker 1:No, we started a business and you hired us. I mean, you guys have just bent over backwards for us in our life. So enough gushing on you, but it really means so much to Jamie and I, your friendship and our relationship with you guys. Can you take me back? What was that like for you?
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1:How did you find out? You found out Drew's not well.
Speaker 2:Jamie called me.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I was. I don't even know that we've ever talked about this. We haven't, so I might cry too Um.
Speaker 1:I welcome your tears.
Speaker 2:I will cry on this, I will. Um, we were in Florida, I was on vacation, and she called and she said, can I talk to you for a minute? And she's so sweet-spirited and quiet and I was like, yeah, hold on. So I went outside of the condo and, um, and I just said what's going on, and she began to tell me kind of where things were at. And it was at the very, very beginning of finding out, um, kind of the mess that had happened. Can I call it like that?
Speaker 1:Sure, I don't want to have everything as a story, well, it's your story.
Speaker 2:And so she just said, hey, this is where, where he is, this is where I'm at. And at that point I asked the question do you want to reconcile? Because we have walked with a lot of people through really, really difficult seasons and not everybody wants to reconcile, you know. And so and she said, no, and she is-.
Speaker 1:So this was before I went to Valiant. This was when I early on oh, this was before you went to Valiant.
Speaker 2:This is right after you got home from that trip.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:She's like nope.
Speaker 2:Oh, this is before Valiant.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I said do you want to reconcile? She said no, no, I don't.
Speaker 1:And just like, just matters that she's just very sweet, very no.
Speaker 2:I don said, okay, what do you need from me? And, um, that's a great question, and I think she just I just need a safe place to to not be okay. Basically is what she needed, uh, without judgment on either person, and so I think that, um, for the most part, I'm not gonna At what. At being like neutral judgment-free holding space for everybody.
Speaker 2:I can't say across the board yes, with all your mess because there's different situations and circumstances in our life that we've encountered with people that don't own their stuff and are not remorseful or appear to be remorseful but unrepentant. And in that space. It's hard for me to hold space and the way that I was able to for you guys. So I just don't want to be like, oh, I'm great at that, I'm not always great at that.
Speaker 2:But with you guys in that space, I know you and I want and I know your children and I know your family. Like the fight for you guys was like the I mean, I went to war for you guys that's how I felt spiritually Our family, like I wanted you guys to reconcile, you know, and if she chose not to, she had every right to choose not to but that wasn't her.
Speaker 2:Thank God and the end for your children and for you guys. And if she chose not to, she had every right to choose not to. But that wasn't her. Thank God and the end for your children and for you guys. It wasn't your choice. And I think Stephen's like, or Brewster's um, just stay. Piece of it was like it's worth the work, do the work, like you are the mass, not them. You're the problem, not them. And he would you know from his own crap would be able to say like do the work, because if you do the work, it's worth it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so.
Speaker 1:Well, it's interesting because in that season our daughters were actually going to be roommates in Florida together.
Speaker 2:They were. We had this trip planned together.
Speaker 1:We're all going to go down there and move our daughters in for their freshman year.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that didn't happen how we thought and but you guys were there. I mean, how amazing is that you guys were there with jamie in that time she didn't have to do it by herself I'm sure that was still awful for her, but at least she had you guys there to do that. And yeah, much later I saw the pictures of you guys setting up the room and just trying to keep things as normal as possible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and in that we carpooled down. So we drove Ash and she drove Grace. So we carpooled down and were sensitive to the situation. You weren't there. That's a big deal for your daughter too, and then stayed at a hotel, all the things, and your wife flew back with us. So I did feel like, for what I don't know why, right, I don't know why that God aligned it the way that he did, or all the provision was there, but it was, and I'm thankful to be a part of the story.
Speaker 1:You guys were a major part of the story and it's looking back on it now. I feel like I've got a million of those little moments of grace where God was just like all right, I got you there, I'll cover you here, I got you there. It's unbelievable, it's really overwhelming in how many ways he went before us and just had what we needed when we needed it.
Speaker 1:You guys were a big part of that. Sorry, I was about to say something about that. You guys being down there in Florida, oh, I was going to say is I was at Valiant and that was a big reason why I wasn't going to go. I literally told the people that were doing my intervention I'm not going to go because I have to move grace in and grace had already written, I think, a text that said he's probably going to say this. If he does read him this text and she read they read me the text in the intervention. That was like her saying you need to go. I'm like, wow, I took, literally took every excuse or reason I had in my mind you, yes, you did not want to go.
Speaker 2:You did not.
Speaker 1:I mean I and you know me better than most only because, yes, we've been friends, but also we're wired very similar.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So both sevens on the Enneagram. We'll talk about that at some point.
Speaker 2:Now we have our differences.
Speaker 1:But there's also a thing where I feel like you relate and see things in me quicker than most because you're like yeah, I get that. So the idea of going away for 90 days you might as well say 90 years I felt like a prison sentence.
Speaker 2:What am I missing out on? I feel trapped. I can't get out of this. I don't want to do the work. Oh my gosh. Part of our personality type I know we'll get into that in a little bit but part of our personality type wants to avoid the lower emotions, like sadness and despair and longing and or any pain we've caused anybody else. Let's just numb the crap out of that.
Speaker 2:Let's just pretend it didn't happen or spin it to the positive, like look what happened out of this, you know, like we're really good at that, and so the thought of being disconnected. And then I think there's another component to it too. Is that that safety security piece? Because that would be our triad. We're in the safety security piece that everything is getting ripped from you. You're not in control of anything anymore control.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so took my phone. Took I couldn't control the narrative I couldn't control, like I didn't know what was happening back home. I mean, you talk about being disconnected. Yeah, I had no access. Yeah to the outside world on purpose. I mean right because I would use any that I could, right. So I had to like detox, yeah. But man that was. I was like a little kid, cagedaged animal, little kid, you must have acted out.
Speaker 2:You think about everything being stripped from you. All your defenses are going to go up, all your fight or flight, everything. I don't know that I'm safe. I don't know what they're going to do. It's all unpredictable. I don't know the treatment. I don't know because you've never done it before. So, you don't know what it looks like. I didn't even know. I was an addict when.
Speaker 1:I went no, I'm sure you did it, I don't even. What did you think? What did you think when you went? I thought that I had just I don't know really. I thought I had just neglected my emotional and spiritual wellbeing and made some bad choice. I mean, I I didn't have language, though, for any of it, so I wasn't like, hey, I'm an addict and I need to go to rehab. So when they did an intervention and they recommended rehab, I was like what For what?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Isn't that for drug addicts and alcoholics? Turns out I probably was an alcoholic too, but let's just won't go there. But I had no point of reference for that. I didn't know until I went to rehab that I had dealt with anxiety.
Speaker 2:I didn't realize the anxiety piece for me either until my 40s.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even now I'm like oh, this is anxiety.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:That's what this is.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:But no, because busyness like go, go, go, do, do, do all the things you know experiences distraction.
Speaker 1:Yep, I'm a leader, I'm future focused.
Speaker 2:I'm a visionary, all of a sudden like no dude.
Speaker 1:I mean yes, but also you have an anxiety.
Speaker 2:You don't know how to be present, right? Oh my gosh, right being present, yeah.
Speaker 1:I had no context for any of that. Yeah, and I get there and I take all the assessments are like yeah, you're off the charts, here's some medicine.
Speaker 2:Here's some therapy. Get yourself under yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's wild. What would you say to people that are listening? So a lot of people that listen to this podcast are their clients, but there's also a lot of family members, a lot of friends that listen, a lot of people thinking about treatment, whether it's at value or somewhere, from just a friend's standpoint. You mentioned the question what do you need with me, or something like that was a powerful question, but how else would you help people who have friends or loved ones that are going through something like this? How do you show up? How do you, how do you do what you guys did for us?
Speaker 2:I think the posture is neutral, like that's the hope is that the posture of your heart can be neutral towards the situation. You don't have to be the savior, you don't have to fix anybody, you don't have to rescue anybody. That's not what we need to do as friends, or even as spouses and loved ones, like that's not children. Like we don't have to be the savior, the rescuer, the fixer. What people need is they need to be heard, seen and understood. And so, whether you're on the support side of the family that just has a loved one that went into treatment, or you're the person in treatment, and when you come out, what do you need? Or what do you need to get there? Right? I think it's like seeing, heard and understood. That's what people need the most.
Speaker 2:And so I contact, like when we're talking, like that your body language says hey, I'm open and I'm here. So my phone's not my hand, my computer's not up, I'm not distracted. I want to listen to what you're trying to say to me, but I'm not trying to fix you. I don't need to do that, and I don't need to do that for you know, I didn't need to do that for Jamie. I didn't need to fix her. I needed to hear what she was trying to say and help her process as much as she wanted me to kind of what's happening.
Speaker 2:I do you know having the Enneagram in my kind of like tool you know tool belt like having that gives me insight into what's going on with people, which is really really helpful in situations like this, because then I have an understanding around, like the fears, what is really happening here and what happened.
Speaker 2:Because people are, I feel like when they get to this place, they're like how did this happen? How did I not see it? Or, you know, there's a lot of things that we dismiss too, if you know, if you're the spouse of somebody or partner of somebody that's going through this, like how did I not see the signs? Yeah, there's a lot of things that we.
Speaker 1:A lot of shame comes up with that. Yeah, A lot of yeah. Yeah, so it's just a like, listening to respond, necessarily that's good, and boundaries you mentioned that. Was that anything you had to do specifically or set with us from a like, I know it's time, but it's also emotions you said not trying to fix right especially when you're close to somebody yeah I could imagine it would be like yeah, emotionally you could get drawn in yes, yes, there were, are, were, are.
Speaker 2:You know, um, even what I do for a living? I hold a lot of people's stuff, and so you've got to learn the balance of, like what's mine to carry and what's mine to surrender. And so the posture of surrender I feel like with the Lord, for me, and my relationship with God, is it's like I've got to lay this at your feet. I can't carry it Like I can't fix it or change it. I need you to be this at your feet. I can't carry it Like I can't fix it or change it. I need you to be in it with these people, and so I think that that posture has helped me. So, if you're a person of faith, that might be a posture that you would, that you'd want to explore. As far as like, what does surrender look like? To not carry everybody's stuff, I do think, like for me, I had to.
Speaker 2:I did have to process, like the heaviness and the weightiness of it, because it affected me it definitely affected me and I don't want to go into addiction or I don't want to go into medicating to carry somebody else's stuff if that makes sense, so at the end of like at the end of the night, like processing through and carrying through, like if I'm going to reach for a drink at the end of that. That's probably not the best solution for me. So it was like walking, moving my body to try to get the emotions. Emotions need motion.
Speaker 2:So, if you have got a lot of emotion pent up. Emotion, emotions are energy. They need to be moved through your body and so, understanding that it's like I just have to wiggle, I need to move, I need to go row, go punch a punching bag, go take a gym class, go yoga, stretch anything but trying to think about like I'm carrying a lot of somebody else's stuff, how do I move the emotion through me? So I think that those were kind of some things I put in place in general in my life for carrying people's stuff. But on the boundary side, it should not. If it's not your personal stuff, okay, like it's not my spouse or child, it's my friend, it should not take a toll as if it is my spouse or child. So I need to figure the boundary out around that and so that looks different. If it's my spouse or child, I'm going to need a lot of help.
Speaker 1:Right? Well, you're the one, at that point that needs the support.
Speaker 2:Yes, I need therapists, I need friends, I need a lot of help. So, boundaries I'm going to have a hard time knowing appropriate boundaries for people because I need, I'm grabbing for anybody that will help hold me up in this and so and boundaries are not like I can't give you any more of my time. That is not a kind boundary, it's understanding your limitations, and then can you resource your friend in a different way. Like hey, you're starting to talk about stuff I just don't even know.
Speaker 2:Let me get you in touch with the therapist or there's this group that could be really beneficial for you.
Speaker 1:We can resource people in some really great ways, which you did, I think, I think, jamie and then eventually we both started going to some people that you guys had recommended for us to to talk to, all right. So here's when I came home, what was it like being friends with us post.
Speaker 2:So you're walking with us through this right.
Speaker 1:You guys never made me feel judged or I never felt weird around you guys. I mean we do Thanksgiving together. I mean that's the kind of friends we are Like. I never once thought, like I wonder what Brewster and Jackie are going to think or feel. But what is that like for people who are like okay, you're at the, you're at the front end of all this and there's pain, there's hurt, and some part of what I've had to realize, too, is the people adjacent to my story were hurt and there was pain there too, and I've been able to make amends with some people along the way as just being like, hey, I realized like that there was hurt there as well, but then then, you know, someone like me goes away for 90 days.
Speaker 1:We come back and we're ready to, like, hit the ground running.
Speaker 1:We're feeling better, we're, and not everyone is healed at the same pace that we have, or so here you know, here's me bouncing back in like tigger yeah ready to, you know, and that not fully true, but I think I'm exaggerating to kind of get the point across which is, with a lot of my relationships and really not you guys as much, I'm not just saying it, but with a lot of my relationships, people were not ready and two and a half years later still are not ready. Maybe never.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that you, you came back right around Thanksgiving too, like you came back right around the holidays. So it was like we have a friend group that gets together on the holidays. So it was, it was um and I think I wasn't even.
Speaker 1:I think I was on a visit for Thanksgiving. I think I actually went back.
Speaker 2:Did you?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, cause I came home. No, no, no, no, no, you're right, I think you had just gotten home. You're right, like you had just gotten home. You guys had just gotten sneakers, or?
Speaker 2:something Like there was like a something that was like I don't know.
Speaker 1:There was something about it, I don't remember.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're right, um maybe you got track suits or something. There was something about it. Like you think about it like you know me and the material side of things, welcome home from rehab. Here's your track seat. I remember you did, you bought something there is something that was like I don't know, um, so I think again different I we had.
Speaker 2:I I'm not gonna say full disclosure to you guys's story but, a lot of pieces, I think, to you guys' story, because of how close we were to that story and just the walking through. Because of that, there wasn't a lot of like what happened? Are they good? Is it okay? Is it real? Is he really going to do the work? Did he do the work? I didn't have any of that. It was like I saw the brokenness, I saw her willingness to fight for it, which wasn't there at the beginning, which we watched God do something miraculous in her, warm her up and you guys.
Speaker 1:Thankfully she changed her mind about that original answer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean that was hard, but it was really scary for her. Do I want to do this? And so I think, because of watching it and being so close to it, I knew that your heart was for the change in your family. So it wasn't a question of is he just doing this to just get out of rehab and figure this out? So I think that that was different. I think that people that are further away from it don't have all the details. They don't need all the details.
Speaker 1:They don't need all the details. Nobody needs all the details of people's inner working.
Speaker 2:But I think that that leads more questions on hurt, right and you don't even know, especially our personality type. We don't even know how much we hurt people. We don't even know. We're really self-consumed so we don't know, especially in that full addiction.
Speaker 1:It's all about numbing you.
Speaker 2:What do you want? Impulsivity. If you think about the id, the ego, the super ego, it is all functioning. It's all like I want what I want, and so, coming out of that, I saw your ego take reign of the id, which I love this visual. We're talking about the id, the ego and the super ego, parts of our personality type. The id is that, like part of you that's reckless, wants what it wants. You know, abandon all, whatever, just whatever. The ego is the one. That is the, the part of our personality that is the most um, what we experience with people is the ego side of people, which is this like I know you want what you want, but what is right and good, what should I do?
Speaker 2:And then you've got the super ego which is, like you, better, not really demanding, really critical really loud. Our personality. If you see it as a seven, we sit between right and we probably lead way more in like fun, adventure, crazy, all the things. But the ego part of our personality, it takes the reins. So think about the it as a horse and the ego as the driver. The ego takes the reins, pulls it back and is like I'm going to get you in line.
Speaker 1:I'm going to get you in order.
Speaker 2:And so that's what I watched happen the it was crazy part. You're like off and running. And then you came back to yourself and were like hold up, wait a minute. What am I doing? This is crazy and not everybody has that experience. Some people have pieces like they go to rehab and they get a little bit, they get out and then all the stresses come back.
Speaker 1:there's a couple things that change, I guess, when I'm saying that for you, one of the big stresses is no longer on the table anymore you're talking about like career-wise, yeah, yeah that was a major one yeah, it's funny because I had therapists all the way back to when jamie and I were first married 20 years ago, telling me I should do something different. They would hear our story like, yeah, I think you need to do something different. I like that's how long? Even then they were like yeah, so that went away.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which, on one hand, was a big relief and then, on the other hand, was like well then, what do I?
Speaker 2:what do I do? Who am I without that?
Speaker 1:This is exactly right, like in safety and security.
Speaker 2:This is what I know to do, and now I'm not doing that anymore. So I think that when you came back into the picture, it was like okay, he's doing his work and I've been watching you do your work. And I've been watching you guys and I trust your wife.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so she's done so much work, which is unbelievable A lot of people don't do because they don't have to. I mean, I didn't feel like she owed it. I was like you don't have to, but she chose to and it's been a game changer for us.
Speaker 2:She uses her voice. She's an Enneagram 9, so peace, harmony. What do I need to do to just keep the peace? And we watched her rise above that and be like forget the peace. I need to speak my peace.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:What matters to me, I need to show up, so we watched her do that and as she did that, you respected it, and I think that that's kind of what we're seeing now is this partnership?
Speaker 1:Yes, majorly.
Speaker 2:And so, because of that, it's easy to love you guys well. You know, what I mean. If it was like you came out and you were still doing what you used to do, or hiding and sneaking and all the things, I think it'd be like this I don't know about this one right, right, that makes total sense.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you for saying that, and it's so funny because it's like it's such a journey and progression, because a couple things I thought about you coming over today and I was like one thing that's true for me is the the further away I get from it it's actually the more deeper I feel it like, the more deeper I have like almost like a more sober mind around the hurt and the trauma and the pain it's like it's still.
Speaker 1:I'm still still like grasping, and also the gratitude, like I feel all of it more today than I did early on, cause I just feel like I still was not fully understanding or seeing the picture and the more I see it, the more I'm like wow, I feel some kind of way about it and it's why we have to stay and continue to our work, cause my default mode is still very strong to do the things or not, especially like you in relationship, to not include Jamie or partner with her, to listen to her, or something I did this week. What was it that? She was just like you're, you're an idiot. Why would you do that? We laughed about it. Oh, I applied for I wanted. I applied to be an adjunct professor at Belmont.
Speaker 1:Oh and she was like are you kidding me? Like I need help with the know. I just applied because I thought it would be fun and she just shook her head.
Speaker 2:She's like there's no way you're doing that I'm like I know, but I just needed to apply.
Speaker 1:Impulsivity. She's like you dummy, oh my gosh. But now we're at a point where it's like we have these conversations and we make decisions together. I feel like this is so great. It's really healing for me to hear too, by the way. So thank you for sharing that. And is there anything else on this, like holding space for friends portion that you'd want to share?
Speaker 2:I mean probably so many things on the holy space for friends. I think that you've got to separate yourself from their story.
Speaker 1:Okay. And so that, and I think that's Like not project, not project.
Speaker 2:yeah or like take it, yeah, take it on. Or just like be offended for all the things. Um, it's not your story, it's their story, and I think you need to be careful who you tell their story to as well.
Speaker 1:That's good um and so that safety goes out the window quick yeah, if it's like, hey, this is getting around somehow, and you know yeah you guys, never were that for us you guys always held it so close and it's you just it's like, because it can be very uh like reactive.
Speaker 2:So because somebody else is going through something, it can feel like you're going through it and then it can like spin you out and it can cause conflict in your own life or in your own relationship, like you've got to be really grounded to know, like this is their story, um, and I want to support them and be with them in their story, but this is not my story or our story.
Speaker 2:And so I think that that is a big part of it. I can watch other people. There's a person in my space right now and their son is in active addiction and it's just a cycle. He's in his 40s and it's just the mom can't say no. So this other person is like, but why can't she? And I'm like I don't know, but it's not your story.
Speaker 1:It's not your story. Yeah, that's good. Well, and one last thing I thought of when you were talking about that was really helpful for me was, just as we were doing the work and as you could kind of tell that we were, this was something we wanted to do long term and like the belief in us again, like, I will say, like, even for me, when I left what I was doing before I left with a lot, of, a lot of shame and the word, the word that was used that resonated with me so much that I had to like, really wrestle with, was disqualified, and which I've done a lot of work around. That word specifically, and and I actually have a good like compartment for it, because it's just like in a, in a race, you can get disqualified but does not mean you can't run again, right, but one thing you guys did for us as friends is not only never made us feel that way, but also, like, encouraged us and championed us with other people, like when we started doing our, our work and started business together.
Speaker 1:You and brewster were recommending and referring, and not only did you hire us, but a couple other people hired us based on like, and that meant so much to me of like hey, they believe in us, like they see something in us, like we're not done, we're not disqualified, we're not, it's not over. And I think that did more for me than what you know, from the standpoint of like hey, I was carrying so much shame. But for people to be like, no, you have value, to the point where we will put our name on the line to recommend you, and I think for anybody walking through it, having those type of friends, it's absolutely how you build back. Like I don't know how I would build back without that you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I think there's a redemptive piece to it. Like, can we disqualify ourselves? Yes, we can, but, like you said, you can run again and maybe you would choose a different race to run, because maybe that wasn't you know, maybe that was too long of a run or too long of a race, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:But I think that as a Christian that's what I'd say as a person of faith that if I believe that I'm going to be forgiven, then I have to forgive, and if I want a second chance, then I've got to give a second chance, whatever we can't give to ourselves, we can't give to anybody else.
Speaker 2:So if we cannot give ourself grace, we're going to have a really hard time giving anybody else grace. And there's a long time ago I was running the bridge in Daytona Beach, florida where we're from right. Both of us are from there, so I was running the bridge and-.
Speaker 1:Please tell me you were actually running in Ormando and not in. Was it in actual Daytona?
Speaker 2:I think it was actually Port Orange.
Speaker 1:Okay, dunlap Bridge.
Speaker 2:yeah, I think it was Dunlap um, it was Dunlap, because I remember running that bridge and I remember like just feeling, like like the Lord was sharing something with my heart around, um, about my daughter which we were told we weren't going to have children.
Speaker 1:And so.
Speaker 2:I've got all these children. So it's not, it's not a true story. But here we are, Um but um, and I didn't. I really didn't think we were going to have any, could have any more at this point or anything, so, but I felt like the Lord had impressed upon me. Um, I'm going to give you a daughter, You're going to name her Hannah, and I'm gonna teach you about grace. And I got pregnant shortly after that, with twins that are named Hannah Grace and Hope Jenna, and I went through a season, um, in our you know family that I learned what grace was, which was forgiving when they didn't deserve it, which, and I didn't. I think, from that point forward, it's like, oh, this is, this is different, Like this is grace, this is what it looks like to love people.
Speaker 1:Um even when they don't deserve it.
Speaker 2:Right, this is it. So because I think that personal experience in that encounter that I had, I think that that's partly where it comes from.
Speaker 1:So good. I mean it shapes how we see the world, for sure. I mean I definitely don't feel like I hold any moral high ground over it. I mean it's like man, what choice do I have to offer what's been offered to me? I mean it's just like I think that's the point.
Speaker 1:Okay, that was awesome, you good yeah so Enneagram part 2 it's all kind of related and connected, right, but this tool has been really helpful for me. Working with you, jamie, and I working with you has been really helpful because we get to hear a lot of this stuff and we've been learning a lot of this stuff and we're we've been learning a lot. But, even like before Valiant, this was a tool that I use because it was the first one that really helped me understand some deeper stuff, some of the motivations and all that kind of stuff, and then getting to know you and now you teach it and your coach and all that kind of stuff, and we'll give all the information to that on it, because as many people that can work with you as possible would be great, but you're probably like stop, my calendar is full.
Speaker 1:Can you just unpack? I know we could talk for hours and hours and hours about Enneagram. It's a deep well, but for those that have never, heard of it before. Could you just give us like a high level overview?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the Enneagram is a personality typing system. It you know it's different than other personality typing systems because we're not trying to put you in a box, but we're trying to show you the different patterns, that you've kind of put yourself in a box. But it also gives growth path. So it gives us insight into hey, you don't have to stay like this, where some of the other tests, all of the other tests Myers-Briggs and things like that. It's like, well, this is who you are.
Speaker 2:So then go function in that way where the Enneagram, the deeper work of this tool, is like the self-awareness of looking at it, like I am functioning like this, but why? Why am I doing it? Getting to the root of why that? That's where the power comes in and it empowers you. There's no power with this tool. Let me just say that there's nothing weird about this tool, but it empowers us to make choices around um surrendering things that don't serve us well anymore, um pursuing things that that would be beneficial to who we are. To see the blind spots, like we didn't even know we were functioning from that or leading in that way. Um, even on the drive over here, my girls, my kids, are all home, so I have four. Two of them are adults and then two are 16, and so, um, they're all very reactive and I'm like and I love being at your house, by the way, because it is so fun and crazy and wild and steven is hilarious, it's a great, very reactive.
Speaker 2:It's a very reactive family big emotions all the way except for isaiah.
Speaker 1:He's just like I'm gonna go to my oh my gosh, she doesn't even come out.
Speaker 2:He walks out, stands at the rail and looks down on all of us and is like that is crazy.
Speaker 1:And I'm going back in my room.
Speaker 2:So that is what happens.
Speaker 1:I love it.
Speaker 2:I was thinking about this piece like the mirroring piece around the reactivity and I was like man, they are all like they kind of jump on each other.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I was like hmm, if they mirror us, I must do this. And I had asked you the other day, brewster, the other day I was like do you think I'm da-da-da-da? He's like no, you're not, no, no, no, no. And I'm like, and he's like no, you're not, no, no, no, no. And I'm like I think I am.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:I think that when I look at it I'm like this feels, yeah, like reactive, like I need to own my stuff in it. So I think that this tool gives us some insight into the blind spots, and so this is one of those blind spots for me where, like, huh, if they're mirroring me, then I must look like that and I don't love that, so I need to fix me. I don't need to fix them. I need to fix me.
Speaker 1:This is that tool. Well, and you talked about where we go in growth and stress. When I first was introduced to the Enneagram, I feel like I connected more with that than my actual number. I definitely feel all of being a seven and enthusiast. But I also was like, well, maybe I'm a three because I'm a high achiever and all of that or whatever. But it wasn't until I understood the growth and stress that I was like, oh my gosh, when I'm stressed, I definitely show up like this. And when I'm, when I feel like I'm healthy, when I'm like alone and with a book and I'm quiet and my spirit and soul's quieted, i'm'm like, oh, this is I feel. I don't know. I mean, I just feel healthier.
Speaker 2:I feel, like.
Speaker 1:This is a more like present version of myself. And that was what kind of helped me know what number I am. So there's nine types.
Speaker 2:There's nine personality types and inside of that there's subtypes, so there's 27 subtypes. It's just, it's deep and vast, like you said, and so the appropriate way to use this tool is through curiosity around yourself. So not looking at it to try to figure other people out, really looking at it as a tool to try to figure yourself out, and in it it's not like, well, I'm an Enneagram 7, I'm an enthusiast, I am scattered and I'm all over the place and I'm a good time.
Speaker 1:That is true of both of us very much Like it's not, it's a problem.
Speaker 2:We wore it as a badge of honor for a really long time and realized oh that's not the healthiest version of us but that is the average version of us, and so the way you use this tool is that you begin to ask those questions around like huh, if I'm scattered, why am I scattered? What am I running from? Why can't I put my feet on the ground? What is going on around me? You know what am I trying to distract myself from All of these things? And so, with all the different personality types, there's like levels of health. Within it, there's the number you go to in stress, the number you go to in health, and it there's the number you go to in stress, the number you go to in health, and growth. There's the wings, the numbers to the right and to the left. They make a big difference on how you show up.
Speaker 2:Then there's three subtypes within your Enneagram type, so it is a very vast and deep look at human personality.
Speaker 1:You kind of have to fall in love with the exploration of it, which is why some people check out on it, cause they just want just tell me what I am and I'm like. But that's not what this is. This is meant to go deep with it and to kind of learn. You know, and that's what you do. You coach.
Speaker 2:You coach people and helping them understand and you know and seeing it and all all the different ways it shows up in your life, like your personality type and the why like so. When you say this to me and I react like this, this is what the undercurrent, this is the motivation behind my actions.
Speaker 1:So let's because there's so much we could talk about I want to apply it specifically to recovery. How does this, how does understanding your enneagram type? And we'll give some specific call to action. People listen to how to like, know and understand. Like, what are some resources? If, like I want to know what the type is. But once you know it, um, how can this help someone in the addiction recovery process?
Speaker 2:I think, when you're looking at the addiction side of it, which all personality types have a bend towards addiction, as human beings have a bend towards addiction, um and and so um and I don't know your thoughts on this like I've heard this said and I feel like it lines up for a lot of different scientific reasons, but, like, addiction oftentimes is a substitute for connection yeah, that that's they say.
Speaker 1:They say that at Valiant all the time, like that's a. That's a line that a lot of the therapists use is that the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, but it's connection.
Speaker 2:So the way that your brain lights up when you're in love is the same way your brain lights up in addiction.
Speaker 1:Fascinating.
Speaker 2:Fascinating right. So if I'm using this tool in this way, like working with somebody that is going through recovery, then I want to look at their personality type and I want to look at stressors. What gets you down to that place? But it's a slow climb up and a fast slide down.
Speaker 1:Okay, well said, yes, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:So what we typically see, that kind of wrecks us as humans, is fear. When fear appears, we're going to see coping strategies come on board and as the lack of awareness around what we're afraid of or worry fear, worry, anxiety, anything and your inability to recognize that that's what's the root of what's happening then it kind of gets covered up by your coping and then it gets bigger and spirals and goes down and down and down and down and down until you don't even know Right, you don't even you didn't. I don't even know what the first part of that fear was. Necessarily, the Enneagram does give us language, especially you can read some books about it.
Speaker 2:The Wisdom of the Enneagram is a great resource for this. It gives you the nine levels of health, but in the average range you start to see fear appear. So all the different types have different. You know the Enneagram one, the perfectionist, moral perfectionist. The fear starts to come in around, like I don't know if they're going to see me as good and right. So then I have to get more rigid with myself and da, da, da, da da, all the things that starts to come in the two I don't know that I'm going to be loved and wanted unless I give you and do all these things.
Speaker 2:The three for them it's the achiever. So if I'm not seen as successful, then who am I? So I better strive and drive and do all the things. And then the Enneagram four the individualist. They are the ones that are like I want to be seen for who I am, I want to be accepted as I am. And when they don't feel like that, then they're like, oh my gosh, a spiral around, like I don't know that I belong, I don't know where I belong, I don't know.
Speaker 2:We see anxiety through the roof. The Enneagram five they kind of close off the investigative thinker. When fear appears for them, it's like I'm going to be asked to do more than I'm willing to. I don't want people invading my space, my time, all of the things. We'll see them kind of close off. The Enneagram six the loyalist when fear appears for them, worry like true anxiety, scared, oh no. We see them procrastinate. We see them get like emotional outbursts. We'll see emotional flooding is probably a good way to say that. But we'll see a big reaction from them and it can be quiet or it can be loud with them either way, but internally there's a big reaction happening with them, the Enneagram 7, the enthusiast when fear appears for them. Busy, scattered, whatever, like fun, like, let me find fun and numb out, check out. Like, let's go do this, let's buy tickets to this, let's go jet skiing, whatever that is, why do you have to get personal?
Speaker 1:There's a story behind that for another time, but yes, so funny.
Speaker 2:So, and then you know the Enneagram 8, which is the protective challenger when we see fear come in for them, they're going to get more controlling, demanding. They're going to get more controlling, demanding. They're going to hold the reins tighter, they're going to not let people in, they're going to be more suspicious. And then for the Enneagram nine, which is the peaceful mediator when we see fear and worry come in, for them, where it's more numb, out, check out.
Speaker 2:It's like let me get quiet, Let me move away from this. I don't like the chaos, I don't like the way this is making me feel. So we see how the fear comes in and, as for each one of those personality types, it gets louder and louder and louder. We're going to see where the medicators come on board. Okay, so what are the medicator? What is the thing that you're drawn to? All of us have medicators.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm glad you said that, because for me, I love to normalize in our culture this idea of addiction and maybe even change the word to whatever unhealthy copes or whatever Cause. I just feel like and I know there's a spectrum of it, right, but it's like we all have that thing that we're going to turn to to cope with. And this is what I say about Valiant. Like when I went there I used to say you know, valiant saved my life. Well, that's not actually true. They gave me the tools, right, and that was the whole thing. It's like, okay now, now we meet alumni. We meet every Tuesday night.
Speaker 1:You've been a part of that, that meeting before. What I love about it is that these guys will get on and share, like life is not all up into the right, like they have a real like. In a lot of ways, their life is harder now than it's ever been. They just don't have to turn to those unhealthy copes anymore. They have tools that they can turn to. You said earlier, moving your body or there's. There's just other things we can do. That's better for us, more restorative behaviors, and but now we know.
Speaker 2:You know. That's the key. If you can name it, you can tame it. I think that that's the key is that once you can see it, then you know you're doing it. But the drinking part of it it was like I'm having a margarita, I'm having another margarita and you're not necessarily recognizing oh, I'm coping right now, I'm numbing, right now. I feel a little socially awkward right now. This makes it easier, you're not necessarily. Then you realize, oh okay, tequila is my medicator. So before I say yes to a margarita, why am I? Am I medicating something?
Speaker 1:You check in with yourself. You check in, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, and for some people, or a lot of people probably in the addiction space, like there's just no's, we cannot. Tequila leads to this. No, it's a never again. Or all alcohol is never again, or all drugs, or all social media or all whatever it is right Spending. There's so many different ways, so many different addictions. But I do think the medicator piece, like what are my medicators? What do I use to cope? How do they call to me? When do they call to me and why do they call me?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:When you start to understand that I think you make, you can start to make sense of your own patterns.
Speaker 1:Yeah, talk about this in regards to relationships, because I think for Jamie and I, understanding one another and the types and the fears and the motivators, that has been a really, really important in our relationship. And her saying, okay, here's what state he's in right now or I don't even know how to say it right, but speak to that a little bit, especially post rehab. People come out of rehab and they're learning to rebuild, and not just in marriage relationship, but just all relationships, or have their always hit the reset button on their relationships. How can the Enneagram help with that?
Speaker 2:The Enneagram offers empathy and compassion. So it offers us an opportunity to see somebody else's emotional state without reacting to it or without trying to change it or make it more comfortable for us. So we're just able to see another person as they are, okay Detached from us. So that empathy piece, and then the compassion piece, the care and action. That's how I like to think about compassion. So I'm going to be compassionate, I'm going to care and action. What is appropriate in this? What do I need to do? So the warning signs in relationships. So I'm married to an Enneagram three, a driven achiever. He is a workaholic and, um, like, like, I think I'm just used to his, his workaholism.
Speaker 1:He's, he's another level. I worked for him for a while and I tried to pace with him.
Speaker 2:And I can't pace with them. I don't even try to pace with them.
Speaker 1:It's unbelievable.
Speaker 2:And that's his own stuff, right? So like I am his wife, I see it. I can tell when we're getting into dangerous territory and so today I can say to him things around, rest, or offer him some space to rest and different things like that. That doesn't feel like I'm attacking him today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, accusation, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I don't say like you're just a workaholic and that's all you do. All you care about is working. I understand today. What used to be a threat to me was all you cared about is work and you didn't care about me.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's how you filtered it before. Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, it was like everything takes precedent over our family. You want everybody to love you more than you want us to love you. Okay. So today I know from his childhood story, through the Enneagram awareness pieces of work, that I do, um, through his coping and his own stuff. I'm sure he loves it we're talking about him on this podcast.
Speaker 1:Let's really break this down. He's never listened to this. Let's be honest.
Speaker 2:He doesn't even listen to my podcast. We're safe. But I think the helpful pieces of this is like I understand he doesn't love those things more, but that's where he's gotten validation and so I'm not in competition with those. But I can love him and offer love in a different way, and we've done a ton of work, and so there's ways that we can talk about this.
Speaker 2:When you're using this tool, it offers you insight into what's really going on below the situation. So if you're in a relationship say you're an Enneagram two you wanna be loved and wanted and you're in a relationship with an Enneagram five and they're harder to reach emotionally, it's really easy for you to be like all you care about is love, all the things that you're interested in, or you're emotionally inept or whatever. It's really easy for you to say that. But then you start to understand this tool. You're like no, that's not true. That's how you learn to keep yourself safe is shutting off those emotions. Okay, so I'm not in a fight with that person. This is just protection, layers of protection. So you begin to understand it.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And you can move into it in more of an empathetic way, right.
Speaker 1:This is just how they're surviving.
Speaker 2:They've learned to survive the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I just it's less personal that way. It sounds like the way you're describing it. I'm like, well, I don't have to take everything so personally, Right.
Speaker 2:Right and you're not. I think so often we battle each other when what's actually happening is our cycle is the way that we've learned to survive inside of relationships.
Speaker 2:I do a ton of work with attachment theory, which we're not going to get into, but that is more powerful than anything probably is understanding your attachment. How you learn to attach in early childhood is how you try to attach in your adult relationships. That is a game changer when it comes to relationships and connection and just human beings in general. We all want to be loved and wanted. We all want to be seen and understood.
Speaker 1:We all do Well, and then also, kind of, like you said earlier, if we can understand that in ourselves and then kind of give the gift of understanding other people. Because I think one of the things that I and I'm I'm not great at it yet, but one of the things I, we've been trying to do, jamie and I is for me to actually try to go a layer deeper and say, hey, actually, what is happening in me right now is this yes, I'm feeling that, which is that I never talked about that before. Like I went to valiant and started doing some work where it's like hey, I'm actually feeling a lot of fear right now. So I know it's showing up like this, but can I just let you in on where I'm at? And then for her to be able to meet me in that and then, vice versa, for her to be able to like I think it was Simon Sinek that said in his organization that they have this rule that anything that's above a five like an emotion, like a like that's about something else.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, if it's, if there is a big reaction, um, like there's a reason. So if it's hysterical, it's historical.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, I like that I can remember that.
Speaker 2:So if it's hysterical, it's historical, and how I word this in my practice is if there's a reaction, there is a reason and there is a root. If there's a reaction, there's a reason and there is a root, and the root is oftentimes not you and so it's like oh, that is a big reaction.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's not-. This might not have anything to do with me, that is probably, or it could, but maybe it's not current. Okay, okay, so it could have something to do with you, but it might not be a current situation but it's a past thing that's trumping Well so take the situation I was joking about earlier, with me applying to be this adjunct professor.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Jamie didn't really have much of a reaction because she just knows he's an idiot and we're not doing that. But I think the thought for her is less about can you do that? Because I would have felt to that. You don't believe in me, you don't think I could be a good professor, you don't whatever. It's not that it is. I've got a lot on my plate and I need your partnership and your help, and now you're taking on something else that's going to take you away from the like. There's all these narratives, which I understand now that she coming from that, but in the past I may not see or understand any of that. It would just be why are you always killing my dreams?
Speaker 2:oh gosh yes, which as a seven, you've got a lot of them, so somebody should kill some of them please.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I'll quote you from time to time because like well, you know, jackie said I need to have at least one other one or two other buckets and she's jamie's like. You got 10 buckets, she said one or two other buckets. Right it, Jamie's like. You got 10 buckets.
Speaker 2:She said one or two other buckets, right, right, it's like three, three is good, but seven is a lot. Okay, seven is a lot yeah.
Speaker 1:But it's helpful to kind of understand both in her response, like hey, she's not trying to kill my dream, she's actually honestly concerned for me and our family and everything else.
Speaker 2:So in emotionally focused therapy, eft, um, there's an acronym, a, r, e and it's um like are you there? So accessibility, responsiveness and engagements, when we're talking about relationships where we can see things fall apart relationally, whether we're in um healthy relationships that are not dealing with any junk, which I don't really know, any of those. So because we're humans.
Speaker 1:We're all you know. I don't know any of those, but in a relationship.
Speaker 2:So are you accessible? Can I reach with like? Can I get to you when I'm trying to reach to you, can I get to you? And if you're thinking about somebody that it's an addiction, right when I reach as a partner, when I reach thinking about somebody, that it's an addiction, right when I reach as a partner, when I reach for my person, that's an addiction. Can I get to them?
Speaker 2:No they're checked out. Something else has kind of taken the space, and so that's part of that. So part of working on the restorative piece of the relationship is accessibility, like don't put things in place that make it difficult for your partner or your friend.
Speaker 1:You put up a barrier there for connection Right to be able to access you.
Speaker 2:So accessibility, responsiveness as attunement, which is understanding somebody else's emotional state. You're not trying to fix them or change them, you're attuning to them. What do they care about, what do they want? You're interested in them, not for what you're gonna get out of it. We're really good at listening to figure out how do we get what we want, but this is like listening to understand somebody else Right, or to argue our point that was one of the things that we were taught and trained on, especially coming home.
Speaker 1:There's going to be a lot of triggers and a lot of things and you don't defend or you don't whatever. I mean just powerful statements like, hey, it really makes sense to me why you would feel that way. Like that.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Stuff like that, where it's just like okay, I can have my big feelings right now and you don't have to respond or defend or whatever. But you can just attune and affirm like hey, it makes sense that you would feel these feelings right now. Yes, it is.
Speaker 2:It's that gosh that is such a big part of that attunement. So accessibility and responsiveness, If those things are happening, then you're like in relationship with somebody. This is good, we're starting to feel good, and then we can engage, we can dance. And I oftentimes think of like. Actually I think of like ice skating, like a figure eight.
Speaker 2:I just think we're like we're skating together, we're like accessible to each other, we're attuned to each other, we care about each other, not for what we can gain, but for each other. And then we can engage in life, back and forth, give and take, and it's beautiful. But what we'll find in relationships is when we get off track in one of those two areas, we don't even get to engagement. And so when we're thinking about the Enneagram, it gives us insight into our partner far deeper than we'd get on our own. Just even if you just start to read about your person, I think it's like oh, oh, that's why they do this. Okay, don't take personal. What's not personal. That's Trish Davis. But I think that that's helpful. Understanding that accessibility piece Like but I think that that's helpful. Understanding that accessibility piece, like if I can get to you, then I'm not going to be scared. If I can't get to you, I'm freaking out right like you're just a big reaction from me.
Speaker 2:If Steve can't get to me, he probably just gets quiet. I don't know, he does not freak out like I'm the freaker out right right, right in our relationship yeah but you'll see, like so, but you'll see like so yeah or fear.
Speaker 1:I mean, I would say, when jamie feels like I'm not accessible, fear will come up big time like hey, are you okay? What's going on? Like all those things with addiction.
Speaker 2:I think that that is the biggest trigger yeah if I don't feel like I can get to you, then every bit of the past trauma is going to come back yeah, like here.
Speaker 2:Here we go again. Oh my gosh, here we go again. And it might not even be that. So I use like weird things like with emojis, like a thumbs up or just if you can't respond. Is there a way that you can respond in a quick way that says like I see you were good, because that's going to help with fear? It won't eliminate necessarily, but it is going to quiet it a little bit even just auditing through that.
Speaker 1:I mean, uh, my friend jake smith, he'll. He's given me some lines too where like to be able to say, hey, this conversation is really important to me and I want to come back to it, but I need x, I need some space or I need to go on a walk or I need whatever. But it's just being able to acknowledge like, hey, it's important, I'm not leaving, like this is, we're going to return to it. So there's not this open-ended, I don't want to talk about it, but I just right now. It's not a good, but I think all these tools you're talking about Enneagram, that ARE acronym they're just great tools to audit, to be like not and not use it on your partner, but use it on yourself, like am I accessible right now? Like am I? Yes, am I checking these bots?
Speaker 1:oh no, I'm actually pretty, I'm pretty checked out right now my mind is in other places and I need to even communicate that back. People say, hey, in the case, you notice that I'm kind of checked out today. It's just my mind, I'm just stressed, I'm thinking about this and I can tell specifically with jamie, it diffuses, she's like okay, this isn't about me, this isn't about whatever it makes sense, and then she can meet with empathy. But it all goes back to if we don't know ourselves and we don't have self-awareness and we don't have language for what we're in or what we're going through, which I'm seeing a growing trend. But man, it scares me. How many. Well, let me just make it personal how long I went through life without being able to name things.
Speaker 1:Oh, right, so no wonder you're just I'm causing damage everywhere Because I'm like I don't know how to name what's going on inside me Well, you're just trying to cope, like literally cope, like slowing down, to name it.
Speaker 2:I mean, for a lot of reasons, we just don't do that. No, as a society, it's like go and do and be and show all the world how pretty and beautiful and great and talented and right, and it's like how can we just be? Right Like shut it all off.
Speaker 1:Just light a candle and just be like.
Speaker 2:I don't even know. But oh my gosh, my soul longs for that quiet which the younger version of me would have been scared of, that quiet when, today, I'm like oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:You long for it, I long for that. Yeah, I do too.
Speaker 2:And that's growth. I think all of us have a different track towards growth, but being still, being present, those are going to be indicators that you're growing, is that you can be still and you can be present.
Speaker 1:What are some next steps? For someone who wants to do more of this kind of work, you offer coaching.
Speaker 2:I do.
Speaker 1:And I also I would encourage people to go to Enneagram with JB. At Enneagram with JB on Instagram, you share daily tips and stuff around Enneagram, which is really helpful on your website, and you've got books and products, all that kind of stuff. But if someone's wanting to take that next step and like, hey, this is new for me or I want to go a little deeper into that, what would you? Encourage them to do.
Speaker 2:So you can have a call with me if you want to go deeper with me. As far as a coach, so I'm a sort of an Enneagram coach that's trained in the Enneagram and on the experiential side, which just means I just help people get into the story of their own life and so different creative ways to help you be able to tap into that. Nothing weird, nothing crazy, just I want to walk with people on the journey of healing. So if that is of interest to you, you can reach out to me. On my website, enneagramwithjbcom, it's like I think there's a work with me button and you can send over a message and my assistant will help connect us. Um, I work with individuals, I work with couples and I work with groups, and so, um, I'd love to work, you know, walk alongside anybody that's on a growth journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, thanks for sharing this and your story and this has been really, really great. I want to go into that another part and bring you back on to do the other stuff. What was that? Not the attunement, but the attachment. That might have to be another one.
Speaker 2:But, jackie, thank you so much for doing this. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Well, we appreciate you listening to this episode of the Valiant Living Podcast and our hope is that it helped you feel educated, encouraged and even empowered on your journey towards peace and freedom. If we can serve you or your loved one in any way, we'd love to have a conversation with you. You can call 720-756-7941 or email admissions at valiantlivingcom. At valiant living, we treat the whole person so you not only survive, but you thrive in the life you deserve. And finally, if this episode has been helpful to you, it would mean a lot to us if you'd subscribe and even share it with your friends and family. You can also follow along with us on Instagram and Facebook by simply searching valiant living. Thanks again for listening and supporting the valiant living podcast. We'll see.
