Valiant Living Podcast
Welcome to the Valiant Living Podcast where we educate, encourage, and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom.
Valiant Living has been restoring lives and families since 2017 by providing multiple levels of care for men and their families. Fully accredited by The Joint Commission, Valiant Living has earned a national reputation as a premier treatment program, offering IOP, PHP, and recovery housing programs for men ages 26 and older. Founder and CEO MIchael Dinneen is a nationally recognized therapeutic expert, speaker, and thought leader in the behavioral health field.
On this podcast you’ll hear from the Valiant team as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at (720)-756-7941 or email admissions@valiantliving.com We’d love to have a conversation with you!
Valiant Living Podcast
Supporting a Spouse Through Recovery: Kelly's Journey of Detachment and Empowerment
Have you ever wondered what it truly means to support a loved one through addiction recovery? Join us as Kelly, the first spouse to share her journey on the Valiant Living podcast, opens up about her experiences. She candidly reveals the emotional challenges and pivotal moments that led her husband to seek treatment at Valiant Living, spotlighting the often-unseen struggles faced by spouses and families, especially the impact on young children. Through her heartfelt narrative, Kelly underscores the critical importance of support systems and the healing process for both the partner in recovery and the family left behind.
Throughout our conversation, Kelly offers valuable insights into the emotional rollercoaster of detachment, boundaries, and self-care. She shares her journey of learning healthy detachment and the personal growth that came with not rescuing her husband from treatment. The discussion expands on the complexities of maintaining household stability while embracing the transformative power of personal well-being. Kelly talks about how structured communication with therapists and family support calls can offer crucial insights and emotional backing, emphasizing the significance of maintaining connections even during periods of separation.
Finally, we delve into the empowerment that comes with personal growth and the courage to trust the recovery process despite the fear of relapse. Kelly's reflections reveal the importance of balancing trust and skepticism while navigating early recovery as a spouse. Her story serves as both a beacon of hope and a powerful testament to resilience, encouraging listeners to prioritize their own healing and recognize the ever-evolving journey of recovery advocacy. Whether your relationship withstands the trials of addiction or forges a new path, Kelly’s journey is a reminder of the strength found in personal healing and the ongoing commitment to self-care.
Well, hey, everyone. Welcome to the Valiant Living podcast, where we educate, encourage and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom. I'm your host, drew Powell, and I'm a grateful alumni of the Valiant Living program. Valiant Living offers hope and transformational change to men and their families struggling with addiction and mental health challenges. So on this podcast you'll hear from the Valiant team, as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at 720-756-7941. Or you can email admissions at valiantlivingcom. We'd love to have a conversation with you, but for now let's dive into today's episode. We'd love to have a conversation with you, but for now let's dive into today's episode. Kelly, good to have you on the Valiant Living Podcast. This is kind of a big deal for us. We've never had a spouse on a podcast yet, so this could be a tell-all episode Without the other person.
Speaker 1:Without the other person.
Speaker 2:yeah, I feel like you've had spouses but the other person's been there, well, and you're actually a listener of the podcast, which is cool. Oh yeah, I found it. Actually, I was thinking I think I found it right before he went out and I was listening to them in order, and so when I was listening to Michael Deneen's, I was like I've got to make sure this guy's legit before I know that he's going there. But then I kept bringing it up to all the staff and they're like, oh, you listen to the podcast. It's like the podcast is getting me through right now, just like I had a window into what was going on. I remember I dropped him off at the airport and I was like I don't know what to do. I had like a 45 minute drive home and I just turned on a podcast and it was what I needed to hear that day. So, yeah, I've got white check marks by all of them.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm happy to hear that, cause that's the point of why we do this is because we were talking right before we hit record.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's a big decision for someone to go and spend, you know, 30 days all the way up to some. Some people are there for nine months and a lot of times, you know and this is what we'll get into at some point but especially the spouses are kind of like well, I, just my husband, just went there and a lot of times there's just no contact. I mean it's just like I hope that it's a good spot. So hopefully, by getting to know some of the staff and some of the modalities and then now some of the valiant victories and also some of the spouses, it'll be a helpful resource for people who are considering all that. When I was visiting Valiant and he recognized my voice from the podcast and he said something like before he even saw me, he was like oh, you're the guy from the podcast. But we immediately hit it off and became really good buddies and so I just think the world of your, of your husband good dude.
Speaker 1:Um, well, you ready, let's just dive in, let's get into this. I want to hear the story because I, you know, I know, I know, michael, but I don't. I haven't heard your version of the story, your side of the story and that's really what we're going to pull out today is what is it like on the other side of you know, a guy is getting help, he's trying to get healthy and sometimes it's the lowest moment of their life. I mean, they're just struggling. But our spouses are also going through significant trauma as well, and I think sometimes in addiction it's like we got our foot in a bear trap and we can only focus on ourselves and getting healthy. But there's a whole other party who is suffering and struggling and trying to keep life moving at home and all those things. Let's just start at the beginning. What? What initially led um, your husband, to to seek treatment at Valiant?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this question. When I skimmed them all, I was like, oh, that'll be easy. And then it ended up being the hardest question for me, Cause I was like, how do you answer this without like giving credit where credit is due? Like there just was so much that led up to him going there, um, so I mean, the shortest answer was a whole lot of prayer and like down on my knees, moments of thinking like this is rock bottom. There probably were, like I don't know, five times I thought this is rock bottom and we never knew, until he was on the other side, that like that actually was finally it. Um. But there were so many times where I just I don't know. I you talk about, um, the, the spouse going through the trauma too, um, I'll get more to that later, but it's like I had no idea, like I knew I was consumed in it but I had no idea what it affected until I was able to start my healing process. But going out there, so the like eagle eye view of it.
Speaker 2:I think there were just so many levels of things affecting him. Like he had his addiction of gambling, he had family trauma, he had so many things that we were just trying to like fix this or fix this, or fix this. And we, we were talking with his psychiatrist. I had been going to sessions with him for a while, Um, and a psychiatrist had introduced the idea of maybe a more intensive treatment, but didn't really feel like we were there yet. And then a couple months later I just was seeing things at home where he was unrecognizable to me and the way it was just affecting every single day and every single person in our family. We have two young kids they're five and three. Our family we have two young kids, they're five and three and just the way that it was affecting them in like a roundabout way. Obviously they had no idea what was going on, but I just realized like we cannot keep up with this.
Speaker 2:And then my therapist. So at the time I had like a therapist I utilized for a few sessions and he really I didn't connect great with this therapist, but he, the one thing he did do was like wake me up to realizing like you have to be okay with temporarily being really uncomfortable and like upsetting him to be able to have a different, like a change to this story, Cause if you don't do that, there's going to be no change. So leading up to it there were so many um conversations that I had to have with people, get people on board with um. There were probably um I don't know like three, three people close to him that I had to really get on board with this because I knew once we put things into motion motion they needed to. He would need to go to them and get their approval.
Speaker 1:So I had a lot of support, like just to be like this is what needs to happen. So you almost had to build like an intervention team. In some ways Sounds like right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I knew this wouldn't be a sit down intervention, but it was. It was almost like, so I had to. I I reached out to a psychiatrist. I was like it's time things are getting really bad, um, and mentally, like his mental. So, in, in gambling addiction particularly, they have the highest rate of suicide, and so it was getting to a point where, yes, the gambling was awful, yes, there were so many other things at play, um going on with him. But I was at the point where I was like I don't know how much longer this is going to go on before I lose him. So that fear, that fear in me really was welling up. Um, wow, and and. And. So one was a close friend that she saw everything that I saw, like she knows, knows so much about him, and she was like seeing, she was at her house actually a week before he left, and she looked at me at one point and was like he is not, like who is this? We just could not recognize him.
Speaker 1:And I'm curious, yeah, how, how was he showing up? Was it like a depression? Was it Cause I'm? Only reason I'm asking is because I'm. I bet there's other spouses listening saying, oh my gosh, like I, I'm seeing this happen. So can you describe it Like how that, how that felt? Was it just he's just off? It just wasn't him.
Speaker 2:I mean, for probably a year or two he was depressed. He was controlled by his drug of choice, um. But let's see, he went on to Valiant in March, probably around November is when things really became. He became unrecognizable. So I feel like prior to november and for years, probably like five years it was.
Speaker 2:It was a battle, it was something he was battling with um, but I felt him somewhat fighting that battle. He would have moments, for obviously the addiction took over and he didn't really try to fight the battle. But there are, there were a lot of things he was trying to do. Well then, probably probably around November, is when, like, relationships with people he loved, like the kids with me, it was like nothing else mattered to him. But and it wasn't even like but, nothing else mattered but his addiction. But it was like nothing else mattered, even his mental health. So he would come home and he would go lay up in the bed. He wouldn't help with dinner, he wouldn't help with kids, like he. Just that was the depression. The depression was really putting him in a hole, um. But then, when he wasn't depressed and he wasn't an active addiction, he still was just a shell of himself. He you could see on his face um that. He just was not his normal self.
Speaker 1:Interesting, just kind of numbed out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then like, tapping into other substances. Um, I've learned a lot about like, uh, when you need escalation and more and more of whatever that drug of choice may be, in different ways and different amount like there's just so different, different things, you're tapping into other types of addictions, like it had turned into that too, and I hear that in a lot of other um spouses of like, yeah, they may say that this is their drug of choice, but I started to see all of these other things coming into play.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's one thing Valiant teaches us while we're there is about the co-addictions and about to go back for another, because if you don't get down to the source that anxiety, fear, lonely, whatever it is it's got to come out somewhere and it's going to.
Speaker 1:You know you can you know, fix one thing, but then it's going to, you know, and so that's. I think that's really important for you to say that, and it's something to realize is that a lot of times, when it's getting to that breaking point, those co-addictions start showing up the alcohol, it could be sexual addiction. Whatever it might be, did you know, when, did you know, that he was struggling with his particular drug of choice? When? When did that become known to you? Or were you just like something's wrong, but I don't know what it is?
Speaker 2:I knew. I knew for a long time. I'm trying to think, like I will say it started out as something that was, you know, it's entertainment and it's something that we did bond over, even when we were dating. You know we would go to casinos together and that was a fun thing. At that point I did not know that it was an addiction, but I mean it had been at least five years before he went out to Valiant that I knew it had turned to that. You know it was affecting our day to day finances and my day to day like stressors and my day-to-day like stressors. And you know, when I look back at my trauma, there's things, big life moments that happened that I felt we were robbed of what those moments should have been because of it. And that's five six years ago.
Speaker 1:wow, so walk us through just that moment where you were like, so it sounds like you knew he needed to go somewhere before he did. Were you kind of for lack of a better term were you kind of orchestrating this? Were you the one that kind of came to that conclusion you need help, we need to get you somewhere, and kind of walk us through that process. How did that conversation go? What was it like? Trying to get him to agree to get help?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, like I said, his psychiatrist introduced the idea. When he first introduced it, we were in the session together and Michael was asking really good questions and he was recognizing that this is a bigger deal. And I think for him and for a lot of the guys that I've talked to, the partners at Valiant, it's not just like a one thing, like I need to fix this and I'm good, Check it off the box, Like for him there just were so many moving parts and he had been at that psychiatrist for years and we love him, he's great but it wasn't working.
Speaker 2:He gave us a couple real tangible things to try to do and those weren't working. So, yeah, I knew that he needed more and then when we left the session, I brought it up to Michael a day or two later, which was very typical of like session feeling good and then a couple of days later is everything just straight over his head, which was it was really hard to like have that whiplash from him of like oh, I have a little bit and that's that's how it was for a long time of like I have a little bit of hope. He said something or he wants to get out of this, and then the next thing I know I'm like was that not?
Speaker 1:real.
Speaker 2:Like what was that? So he was in up until 24 hours before he got on a plane and I would say he was definitely not ever going to go to a residential treatment. It just was not an option, um, not at all. So I got a few other people on board, I brought it up to him the night that our friend was over and he just left the room. He, he was so fed up that I bring it up. And this is where, for me, I was like, okay, I need to pump the brakes, I need to stop forcing it. But I couldn't like. I just was like he's either going to lose his life over this or I have like I have to cause I'm a people pleaser and I didn't want to upset him and I didn't want to have to live in that every day if I was upsetting him. But I, and I told one of my friends I was like I'm praying he gets on the plane by Friday and he was on a plane on like Wednesday but, um, 24 hours before I was like it's not happening, it's never going to happen, he's never going to go.
Speaker 2:So then, how I found Valiant particularly was interesting, because when we were talking to a psychiatrist. He was um with gambling. It's still kind of a newer thing that people are starting to like build up um programs for, so you're really limited. Um, I think there's like six in the U? S and I, I mean, I've spent so much time researching and researching things and none of them felt like they were the right fit.
Speaker 2:So then I started and the psychiatrist even agreed maybe that little niche wasn't going to be enough for him or exactly what he needed. And then I was thinking like a men's program. So I actually was looking up men's programs, knew nothing about Valiant and found a program in Texas and they had like a little blurb on their website about gambling. And so I a chat box popped up and I said how can we help you today? And I was like hey, do you help with this? And they were like no, we actually don't focus on that, but here's a number of a place that does. So I was like okay, called that number and it was Michael Dineen's cell phone number, which I thought was weird. Like I thought it was going to be talking to a admissions person or something like a secretary or something.
Speaker 2:And at the time, even when I called him, I left him a voicemail and then he called me back. I had no idea that that's who I was calling. And so, and to this day we have I've tried to find the website of the place in Texas. I can't find it. Like I looked back at computer history, like I, the name was like so how, who? And I'm like I don't know.
Speaker 2:So I actually had a um, probably like an hour conversation with him.
Speaker 2:Of, just honestly, the conversation with him is what sealed the deal of me, knowing that I have to do this and I have to do this now.
Speaker 2:And so I felt like something about my conversation with him just fueled me to go full stream ahead, and and so then I took a bunch of notes from that call and I told Michael about it, and then he was like Nope, don't even bring this up to me. And then the next morning he got up and he was like I don't want to go to work today. And I said do you have to go to work today? And then he just went back to bed and then he texted me and said so what's that place you? You called, and I gave him my notes. And then that day we had lunch with a friend and then we called denny in the car and talked to him on the phone together and then we decided wednesday to be on the plane. So it still feels like there was just so much like divine intervention in that whole yeah, yeah, I got goosebumps when you're telling that story because it's just.
Speaker 1:I even look back on my own story and all the little things that had to come together to get us to where we needed to be and get to the right place. And you know, I think that's it's so powerful. I mean it's like I totally agree with you the divine intervention, like there's something bigger than us at play and at work to get us where we need to be. So walk us through that. Next you get michael on a plane. He's heading off to treatment and this is kind of where I want to get to the kind of meat of the story, because I want to know what it feels like to be in your shoes. You know, post you drop your husband off. He's gone. You're like I hope this is the right spot, I hope. But you probably don't know tons of like what he's going to be doing and I don't know what. All you knew and I know michael probably filled you in you know as much as he could.
Speaker 2:Um but what was that?
Speaker 2:like for you you know, honestly, I I'll get back to this and and I hate to use this word but I felt like my job was done. I felt a huge relief. I was like I'm not responsible for him and it's weird because I didn't know anything about the people, but I was like he's in good hands. I just didn't. I had to trust it Because at that point, anything was better than me having to manage this myself. So I was really truly just glad. Looking back now, knowing what I know, it is amazing that Valiant is where he ended up and not some other recovery places. But yeah, I just had to trust it. Like I said, I was listening to the podcast like crazy at that point in time. Like crazy at that point in time. Um, but then what's what's? What was a little disheartening was so we told michael it's funny, I listened to other podcasts and people were like I, you know, I thought 30 days and it turned into 90. We told him two weeks. We were like oh really two weeks?
Speaker 2:yeah, I did not. I think maybe devine at one point had said on the call with him like, yeah, it could end up being like 30 days or a little more, but I was like just two weeks, just go. Two weeks, yeah, which in hindsight don't say that to anybody, because then you put a timeline in their head and you don't want to do that but I just said it'll be short. You just got to go and so I thought he's going to get out there. He's going to get out there, he's going to be sold on this right away. It's going to be fine and I'm good, like that's it. Well, that did happen. But the first week or two were just horrible. And again, this is one of those things I think I said before, like Michael has a very hard time talking about this and reliving it, because it was, it was rough. Um, so he gets out there, he does detox, um, actually. So he gets on the plane, flies out there. Denine picked him up and then he drove him to detox and he actually called me right after he dropped him off, which was amazing to me that he would call me and like fill me in. But he was had already identified and recognized things Like that's. Another thing I'll say is there were so many people that I that I talked to leading up to him going out there that maybe understood aspects of him, but any person I talked to evaluate in the process, they just understood everything so well. I was like Whoa, you're finally speaking the language that I've been living, um, so he dropped him off at detox.
Speaker 2:Michael actually got moved from detox to php on a saturday, which I actually think due to him, they no longer do that because it was a nightmare. Um he so at this point they have his phone, but he was getting the house phone somehow and talked like, calling me and saying I need to leave, I need to get out of here. This isn't where I'm meant to be. It was sort of the Saturday he got moved was a fire drill. All people, all staff that were on call at the time, were calling me. We're having calls with his parents, calls with me, calls with them. It was crazy, but I will say that that is where.
Speaker 2:So I ended up talking to Jill and Dan that day and like that was the moment that I knew he was in good hands, like before I had to convince myself of it. But when I was having those conversations with the staff, I was like he is exactly where he needs to be. They I mean again, this was a Saturday afternoon and they were asking me question after question about me, about him, about our family, about his family, my family like they were diving in and, as I'm telling them things, they're, they're talking and they're spitting out names, like, okay, we need to get him to have lunch with this person. We need to do this. Like they did anything they could do at this at the beginning to get him to stay there. We were good for about 24 to 48 hours and it happened again that next week where he was like I've learned my lesson, you've got me out here. You got me out here. You got me out, you gave me the wake up call I needed, like I'm good.
Speaker 2:I know what I need, I'll come home, I'll do all these things. Like he's trying to say the right things. And I felt like a crazy person because I'm like is it because even then, he's telling me things about valiant that are quote unquote bad? Like they do this, they do that and this isn't what I need? And I'm like is this not what he needs? You know, like all the group therapy. He's like I don't need group therapy, I need individual therapy. So many things. Again, this is when I'm listening to podcasts and hearing other guys say the same thing. They're laughing about it Right.
Speaker 2:Okay. So at that point then I did tell him I was like, please just stay a couple more days. And they were like, please don't tell him that, like you just need to. And I remember hearing you guys talk about loving leverage and this is where I thought my job was done. I had to use a little bit of loving leverage to get him to stay. But the longer he was there and the better like the better he got acquainted with everybody. There are still parts he didn't like, but he realized like these people are, are on to me and I think too, like meeting with Bonnie, meeting with other people like they can understand traumas and past and they're bringing stuff out of him that he was like, okay, it's actually making sense. So he finally got to a point where he was staying.
Speaker 1:I'm so happy that you shared you're this side of it, because, yeah, we do. We do chuckle. I laugh because I see so much of myself in that story too, and so much the Valiant team is so well equipped to know how to deal with us as we get dysregulated. And I will speak for myself. I don't want to put this on anybody else, and I will speak for myself. I don't want to put this on anybody else, but when we're in our addiction, like that we're, we can be so persuasive and so manipulative and so, like you said, this is what Valiant's doing wrong. This is why I shouldn't be here. This is whatever.
Speaker 1:And it's so hard, I would imagine, for our loved ones, our spouses, to hold the ground, because there is that love there still, and you're hearing this and we're really good at we've we've been really good at gaslighting and manipulating and getting what we want and working the system, and a lot of us buck up against that. It's like the first time we've lost all control, like we don't have our phone, we don't have our car, we're like, living in this place we don't want to be and we're just totally just and we're like, like you know, backed into a corner, we come out swinging in the way. We know how to survive, which is manipulation.
Speaker 1:And so many. I think spouses, partners, need to hear what you're saying right now because they're going to. Probably I would imagine nine out of 10, if not 10 out of 10, have to deal with calls like what you got of this isn't the right place. I need to come home, I need to whatever and gosh for you to hold your ground like that. I can't imagine just the courage and the healthy detachment that you were learning at that point of like. I can't save you right now. It's not good for me to rescue you. I have to lock in because if you probably if you would have permission to come home, I bet he would have oh yeah, he, that's.
Speaker 2:The only thing that kept him there was because he was like I just need to know when I come home you're not going to leave me. And you know I was I'm not the ultimatum type wife like it's really hard for me to do that. Just I'd, I don't know. I have a lot of commitment to him, um, but I all I kept saying was I need you to stay, I need you to stay, and you know, some of some of the valiant staff were coaching me a little bit because I just was telling them like this is very hard for me, um, um, but I knew, I knew that's what I had to do.
Speaker 2:I had to tap into a part of me that I didn't even know was there. But yeah, and like a teaser for a future questions we're about to discuss but like you have to do that for yourself. So at the time I was doing it for him, looking back in hindsight, I had to do that for me because, honestly, the time he was out there was such a blessing for me to come down from, like all of the survival and trauma that I had gone through, that like there there have been spouses that have jumped on our calls and I'm like, oh, stick it out, like like get them to stay, because you know you need that for yourself is you know you need that for yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so good, so glad you said that. And a lot, of, a lot of times we're so attached, so in such a codependent relationship, because the addiction has created that, like that's not even anyone's fault, like the addiction has created this unhealthy dynamic, and what we see a lot of time at Valiant too, is a lot of times the spouses are still attached to that person's care and treatment and they can't let go, whereas what they need to do or they deserve is what you just said Give yourself the gift of some doing your own work and your own healing. Because you have been in this, you know unhealthy dynamic, you know all that stuff. What were some of the biggest challenges when he was away? What are some of the biggest challenges you faced challenges when he was away? What are some?
Speaker 2:of the biggest challenges you faced. You know, I think the challenges are kind of twofold because they, it's like I said, those first two weeks were really challenging. When it comes to challenging with him At home, as I said, we have two young kids, so I would say like the challenge was just the maintenance of the house, cooking meals, mowing the grass, like doing every task. But truly it's like I tell people all the time like I feel like that should have been a lot harder than it was and it really I think it was such a sigh of relief for me to not have to. You know, I was constantly like codependency.
Speaker 2:As you said, that it's like To me, it's in my everyday language now talking about codependency with anybody and everybody I come in contact with. But before he went out there I didn't really know much about it and every time I read anything about it make our whole household conform to that because you know they say you're only as healthy as your sickest family member. Like that's that was us. So truly the challenges were logistical but really for, like myself, it felt, it felt good at times and it's hard to tell Michael that, but it felt really nice to just like I was in control of the mood of our home, like I just was in control of so much that it was.
Speaker 1:It was a really welcome relief, um, yeah, that's I mean it was hard go ahead no, I was just gonna say that is hard to, that's hard to hear, but it's important for us to hear because even now we you know as the time of this recording, we just got off an alumni retreat and Michael and I got to spend time together there and one of my big takeaways from that retreat was I still tend to make myself the center of the universe, my addiction, my ego, everything else.
Speaker 1:In realizing that when I'm plucked out of the center of things, when I'm unhealthy, now when I'm healthy, it's that when I'm plucked out of the the center of things when I'm unhealthy, now when I'm healthy, it's different because I'm showing up and I'm serving all the scenes. But it is a little bit of our ego blow and reality check of like hey, things for a lot of our spouses got way easier when we were gone, cause there wasn't this massive elephant in the room that were constantly tiptoeing around and are they okay? And but I'm glad you said that because that is, it's hard to hear, but it's like man, I'm not, it's, I'm not the center of the universe, like my addiction wants me to make me believe, you know? Um, so yeah, I mean that's. That can be tough to hear, but that's a reality check that many of us addicts need to need to reckon with. Like we're causing trauma and it's making life difficult for the people around us. Is there anything more you were going to say on that kind of want to interrupt you?
Speaker 2:uh, just like, as I feel like I hear this, and a lot of other partners too of. So a challenge is like coming to terms with everything that happened. Um, you know, you, if you know anything about the stages of grief, it's like there's stages to it and it's awesome. Anytime a new lady jumps on one of our calls, you hear like a relief and anger, mad, sad, like you hear all the emotions and so it was challenging to have to like go through all of those, but once you get to the other side of it, you're like it's not that challenging.
Speaker 1:You know it is a relief.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Something my wife said at dinner last night that I think is really powerful because she's she's like you and has done a lot of her own work. And she was just talking about how she's learned to be okay, Like hey, when, even when bad things happen, or if bad things happen, like it doesn't really matter what it is, she'll grieve and she'll hurt and do those things, but now she has a confidence in, like I know how to be okay in myself and get what I need, which is I think it's it's part of getting the power back after an addiction has kind of robbed a lot of that, which I think is so key, so important. How did you and Michael stay connected and how did you stay connected to the Valiant Living program while he was there? As far as support system goes?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so his primary therapist was Bridget and I was talking to Bridget one, maybe two times a week. At the beginning it was a lot more and then it kind of got down to once a week. So she was really awesome at just kind of giving me updates and some of the secrets to value that. I don't want to give away everything if there's people listening, but you talk to one staff member like you're talking to all of them and you know I so. So talking to Bridget was one big thing.
Speaker 2:Um, then the spouse support calls I've mentioned. So Jill has her call and then I forget who leads the other call, but there's two calls for family members, um, once a week and I haven't been to the other one, but I have heard great things of the people I know that have gone to the other one. But so talking to the therapist, talking on those calls to the other spouses and then Jill was on those calls. Like I talked to Jill, like instantly, like here we go, everybody's, everything's going downstream and getting the right people and um, so I think that was super helpful, like just to know that, like I don't have to try to like do all these things, like I can just tell somebody something and then the right things will happen. Um, and then, like staying connected to Michael, we actually had like a you know what do they call it, like a blackout period or something.
Speaker 2:Um so they take took his phone, um at the beginning, and that's when he was finding ways to still get in contact with me a little bit.
Speaker 2:But, um, when I wasn't, when, when he didn't have his phone and we weren't talking to each other, he actually he was FaceTiming the kids, and so that was twice a day, I think, and then we he would like try to say some things to me a little bit. And again, this was one of those moments where it was like hard for me to like, you know, I want to talk to him, I don't want to talk to him, I don't want to hurt, like hurt his feelings. But those calls and the valiant staff were really good about, like those are for you and the kids, like please don't be talking with kelly, and it sounds harsh, I mean, over and over again he thought valiant was turning me against him and that's not what it was, like they were trying to care for me while they were caring for him. So, um, yeah, so I had a little bit of contact with him through those. But and then and then, like for podcasts, I felt like I was connected to Valiant through that too.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I'll just touch on that real quick. I think so important. But that digital detox that they put I think now almost everybody does it for at least a couple of weeks, weeks. That absolutely for me, on this side of it, for anyone listening, who is bucking against that that was an absolute marriage saber for Jamie and I, even though I hated it Because it wasn't because they were being mean or cruel or trying to tear us apart, until I started getting my brain back wired online.
Speaker 1:The truth of the matter is I was just going to use people if I taught, so they were literally trying to protect our relationship.
Speaker 1:Protect until I could know how to show up in that relationship. And even the first couple of times we talked I don't know if this is true for you and Mike, but it was with the therapist, like I didn't just get to talk to her again, you know, because again, we had to learn how to, and we're still learning, we'll always be learning of how to communicate again in a way where we're not using each other, codependent and so, um, that's a great point to bring up, and almost all of us guys fight that there's something about our phones that we just we lose it. It's like our, our access to the outside world or whatever. It's very common, but it's a very important part of our, of our therapeutic process, to have some healthy separation so we can come back together at the right time, you know, in a healthier way. Um, I'm curious if there's was there moments that you were uncertain about relationship? Um, you know, or were you kind of locked in and you're like like I'm gonna see this thing through, or what were your emotions around that?
Speaker 2:yeah, I, I feel like I didn't really question the process. Like I said, when I talked to jill and dan on like day four or five of him being there, I was convinced that this process was um, was was going to be like it was going to give him what he needed. Now I do think he any question I had was more so on him, um, and being connected with other other spouses that were so at the time when I was doing the calls. There were that were so at the time when I was doing the calls. There were two ladies that their husbands had, or ex-husbands or husbands, whatever had been. They were alumni, they had been out for a couple years. Then there were some that were in the program with him and there were a couple new ones. So it was nice having people across like all ends of the spectrum and it was probably for me. It was probably for me.
Speaker 2:It was like wondering, questioning, like is his, are his motives genuine? Especially because at first I knew he was just saying the right things to get me to want to let him come home. And this is where we were still in a blackout period and I love that I was able to talk to Bridget and say like, okay, how is he coming to these conclusions? You know, is it because you're telling him? Is it because do you feel like it's genuine? And like you know, there are guys that go through the program that don't really hate to say it, but I feel like, don't. You're like you have to want it, so it has to be in their hands, like now, it will give you every single tool for your toolbox. But if you're not wanting it, then so for me it was like, uh, for a long time I felt like Michael was just saying the right things and and my questions were like, how genuine is this?
Speaker 2:But this is where I was so glad that we didn't have contact with each other, because one he could have been playing mind games with me and even if what he was saying to me was sincere, on like week three, I'm so glad I didn't hear it, because I didn't need to hear it at that time.
Speaker 2:Like I knew, on week three he's not coming home soon and I still needed time, so I didn't even want to know like things that were true and that sounds really heartless, but like the fact that I'm able to say that is huge for me because prior to him going out there, I don't know if I would have been able to ever say that, but like the Invaliant taught me, like they advocated for me so well with Mike too, like, and and they again they weren't pitting us against each other, but they, they empowered me and still, like, loved and cared for him, but still gave him like the smack in the butt he needed. I was like and I love that about it. It's not like they're turning us against each other. They're not choosing Kelly's side, like I think a lot of times he was like they're choosing your side. They're not doing that, but they're giving us power that we have lost for so long.
Speaker 1:That's so well said. I love that. And what is also true is when we start doing the work and showing up, then they start advocating for us as a client too. I remember at one point when they were like no, he is ready, he is point and and it's probably difficult because you can't see our progress, but that's why it's so helpful to have the therapist and the case managers and everyone else be like no, you know it's, you know it might've taken them two months, but he's, he's ready, he's doing the work, we're seeing the change and and so, yeah, I think being an advocate on both sides when they need to like it's a thing we don't want to hear. Let us pitch a fit like a little kid and just be like okay, you can pitch your fit, that's fine. That's part of it, part of you working through it and you know, and then trusting them of like okay, when we're ready, then they're going to start bringing us back together. And I've said a lot you've probably heard me say before, but it's like that part was what helped Jamie and I actually heal and come back together. I don't know that we would have been able to stay together if we didn't have, you know, 30 to 45 day, however long it was separation, but because Valiant helped guide that process for us, it it, it did it in a way that allowed us to heal and come back together in a much better way later on. Um and so yeah, having having them as advocates is is huge.
Speaker 1:I want to switch gears just a little bit. I want to talk a little bit about your personal. You've already mentioned it a little bit, but your personal self-care Cause this is big. You mentioned codependency earlier. A lot of spouses you know partners, the trade partners, whatever you want to call them. It's hard to detach while they're in, while we're in treatment, and focus on themselves because their whole life has been just locked in on focusing on the, on the, the addict part of the relationship. So how were you able to kind of pause, evaluate what you need and start, you know, or were you able to, I don't know give yourself that self-care and begin to like, start working on your on yourself?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I um. You know, before I could really start my healing process, I had to recognize it for what it was. So Jill told me you know, you're a trauma partner. And I'm like whoa, that that is way too harsh of a word to use for me. Like, I'm fine. What trauma are you talking about?
Speaker 1:No, like right, right right.
Speaker 2:And it almost was like I was trying to be defensive for Michael, like he didn't do that to me, but then I like had to do a lot of education for myself and, honestly, like that's the most of the time that he was gone. Yeah, you're maintaining everything at home. So, like you know, you guys are on a fast track while you're out there and we're still just like at the very beginning of, you know, recognizing what this trauma is, what it means, what it does for us, and we don't have a therapist talking to us daily, explaining everything to us. So it does take initiation on your part to figure out what. Initiation on your part to figure out what, what this, what do you need to do for yourself?
Speaker 2:Because I don't know, I sometimes I hate the word self-care Cause I think it's like in my mind it's like, oh, you did your self-care, you checked your box, you should be good to go, and that's not how it is, especially when you're in, while they're gone. You know, yes, you need to do self-care, but that doesn't mean that in two hours you're still going to feel refreshed, but you just have to, like I don't know, just do what you need to do in that day, um, as what I had to do a lot of times and so I think for me, though it was, it was accepting my self-care looked a lot more like gaining an understanding for myself that I didn't have before, because so much of it I was just, I was his caregiver and I wasn't, you know, doing things for myself, even though I thought I was, I was not. So I had to come to terms with realizing like, uh, yeah, there were a lot of things that I thought I was doing. You know, I was doing self-care while he was still home and I was miserable, but it wasn't the same. So I think that a lot of my recovery, though and let's see, he's been home for a few months now it's I would have told you when he was coming home that I was further along in my recovery than, or my in my healing process than I actually was, and I learned that.
Speaker 2:I feel like I learned that every week it was it last week, the Bridget podcast of talking about the nervous system and the polyvagal and all that. I was like listening to it, thinking this is what's happening to me, and my therapist explained it as like this emotional letdown that you have. So, yeah, I thought this emotional letdown that you have. So, yeah, I thought, oh, I'm healing, I'm getting better, but gosh, my body reminds me frequently like no, you're still really at the beginning of this and I can see that.
Speaker 2:You know, michael, there are times where I'm like you had a lot more healing than I did.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think that's an important point, right Cause we go to this, you know, 90 day. You know, and again I say 90, sometimes it's a lot more for guys, but I don't know what they need. But it's a bootcamp. I mean, we're living in this every day, getting a lot of knowledge. We are and there's still, you know, so it's, you know.
Speaker 1:I remember for me, I came home from Valiant and I was like man, I feel great. 90 days, I mean to me it felt like a lot longer because I was immersed in it. I was like that's really three months from when a major trauma happened. For most of the people that I love, like they're just, it feels like it just happened and I feel like man. I've been gone so long and I think there's a bit of empathy we have to have as we transition home of like hey, we're all healing at different paces, and to maintain a curiosity around, hey, where are you in this and how can I show up for you in this? And then you know, I think all that's important, could you talk a little bit about that transition, so like, so he does, how long did he end up staying?
Speaker 2:Right around 90 days.
Speaker 1:All right. So two weeks turned into 90 days, and then he comes home. Talk about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I will say, when he came home, I thought I would have this feeling of like, like we did it, we've arrived, things are, and you know, I I have so much gratitude for the person he is today Like it is leaps and bounds from the person that left in March. So I don't want to discredit any of that because I there's. There were so many times where I was like wow, like this is, you're actually showing up, and I was shocked. But there also have been tons of reminders that we have to continue to do a lot of hard work and, like I said, it was almost easier when he was out there because I didn't have to do the hard us work that I now have to do frequently, and for him too.
Speaker 2:But, like, when he came home, so his emotional state before he left was either all the way up here he was like on a high or he was down in the dumps, like. But I knew what he was going to be like. I knew he was in a good mood, I knew he was in a bad mood, but he was in a bad mood. But when he came home, he just was like here and I'm like whoa I don't know how to read this and and I was like he. He was like you don't know how to read my emotions. I'm like, well, no, because all I got before was really high or really low, and I knew what that was so like, even if I hated that, I knew it and it was predictable, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so then when he came home, you know, I just realized I have to be in tune with him and for the first time, like I also had to let him be in tune with me because he had stopped caring for me.
Speaker 2:And again, this is something I didn't even realize, um, but like I mean, I knew he wasn't really interested, like he wasn't asking me questions about me. But when he came home, I was like you're doing this to check a box, like I had to realize that things were real and I just still am trying to work through that of, and I think you know it's going to take like a year or two to go through like seasons of life to really realize, like how real it is. Um, but like now you know we have this partnership. So before, like I said, I was his caretaker and I have to learn to like let him be a partner in our family, a partner for me, um. So yeah, we're learning a lot together and we have to be constantly reminding ourselves to be in communication. I think the first two months we were solid at a lot of things and now we're like finding those weak spots where we need to learn, where we need to step things up.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and life starts happening again. It's like you kind of come home and you're in this euphoric, you know whatever, and then all of a sudden you realize, hey, these things that I've escaped from or to for most of my life, they didn't just magically disappear and now I've got tools. I mean, I, I've got tools I can use and I know what to do with them and I don't have to go back to those unhealthy escapes and I could stay sober and do all those things. But it doesn't mean that I don't still have those same things, that I'm wrestling intentions. And you know it definitely feels clunky. And I mean I feel like, you know, I'm two years, a little over two years, and it feels, you know, super clunky still, like I'm learning how to walk again and learning how to show up in life. And there's other moments where I definitely feel like I've slipped backwards. And you know, but something you said earlier, when you talk about like self-care, there's like first there's a self-awareness, like it's being able to like identify and name what's going on in me and then be able to say, hey, I think this is why I'm this way, and then then I can kind of get out in front of it before I could never name it. Or even, like you were saying I, before I got my power, before I could never name it. Or even, like you were saying, before I got my power, before I could care for myself, I wasn't even thinking about myself, I didn't even know what I, what I needed, you know, and so, yeah, it's.
Speaker 1:The transition home is definitely and I think my ego part is like you're hoping for a ribbon and a banner and balloons and walk through the door and everyone's happy to see you. It's like well, it's like now the work begins. It's almost like Valiant gets you back to like the starting line, ground zero in some ways. And now, okay, now it's time to really start living in. You know the difference between sobriety and recovery. Okay, you're sober now, great. But now it's time to live in recovery, get back what you lost. This is so helpful. I feel like this should be like a four or five part series. So I have all these questions I still haven't even got to on here and all this stuff. We talked about transition home. That's great. Was there any moments that you can remember where?
Speaker 1:I don't know where there's moments of hope or moments of breakthrough, or I'm just trying to think of how to word it, because it really is. You know it's. It's an ongoing process, ongoing challenge, and I think a lot of times we are looking for that heroic moment and sometimes, when it doesn't happen, we're, we're disappointed. And at the same time, you can see people's growth. You know, you can see, hey, so there's things to celebrate, while at the same time, there's a long ways to go. But I'm just thinking for people listening or watching that might need a glimmer of hope or breakthrough. Or was there a moment where you're like, hey, I think we're going to be okay, anything like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I. One thing I haven't touched on yet is like this, this idea, well, I probably have talked about it a lot, just not in this way. But Jill always says, like you need to make sure that you are going to be okay, whatever like happens with them, that you are okay and okay, whatever like happens with them that you are okay. And it sounds like such a simple thing, but, um, I think I almost had to like my therapist. When I started with my therapist, once she was out there, she asked me so like do you want to stay with him? And I'm like, why is she even asking me? It's like, yeah, I want to stay with them. Like hasn't she heard what I've been explaining to her?
Speaker 2:But I really actually had to get to a point in my mind where I let myself even though I didn't really want this or believe that, like I said, I'm like really committed to Michael. But I had to tell myself, like, if he doesn't put in the work and if he doesn't show up and if, if he has major like, if he goes back to the person he was like, I have to think I have to consider that option to know that, okay, I'm gonna be okay, if that happens, I am gonna be okay and I, you know I love about our spouse's call is like they, they're the women that are no longer with their partners that were at Valiant, the women that are like we all love and care for each other. You know, it's never like oh yeah, I went through that. You got to leave them like never. And then the ladies that I've left and like we have such like appreciation for them and you have to like learn for yourself, like I just had this breakthrough of learning like about me and knowing like I'm going to be okay no matter what happens. And and I'm going to wait and see if, if what he's saying is genuine.
Speaker 2:But then for for Michael, like a breakthrough with him is, I felt like there was a point it was probably it's probably right around the 30 day mark where he finally had a clear mind. Like it took his mind time to detox and you use that word, but it's not like, it's like a word of like clearing his mind, like getting rid of these things, where he like and I used to always tell him like he has this lens of his addiction and like he, he sees everything through this lens. So it was like, whatever your drug of choice is when you're in, that that is the only way you can ever see yourself and see everybody around you. And, like you said, it's that ego mentality of like oh, this person's talking about me, or like everything is around them, and their addiction and so I. So at one point, you know if, if your spouse is out there long enough and you both agree to it, you go out and visit them.
Speaker 2:So when I went out to visit him, I was always still very skeptical of how real this was. And there was one moment where we went through a drive through together and I was sitting in the car with him and I'm like, I don't know, I feel like I'm dating you for the first time again, like I'm getting to know this new person, and there was still a little bit of me that was guarded of, like this seems too good to be true and you have to like let yourself kind of. My therapist always tells me you have to be able to like have two camps and that is okay, cause I always thought I had to be here. I had to be here. She's like you can have both and that's okay.
Speaker 2:So I, you know, I, I let myself be happy and see that he had a clear mind for the first time in years, where it wasn't and that's what he needed Like he needed to go away. I, I don't think, had he not gone away, he would have ever like he had to cut ties with everybody in his life to be able to see himself for who he is. Because he never, he never would have had a breakthrough. He could have done the most intensive treatment in the world here and it would have never worked. Um, but then, yeah, just going out to visit him, I felt like, okay, some of this I'm going to let myself believe, some of this is real, wow.
Speaker 1:So kind of that answer kind of leads me into this next question, because I think this is something I hear a lot, but how do you deal with just so? You hear the stats about relapse and all this different thing and so do you have fear of that. How do you deal with that part of it of like man, how like I hope this lasts, I hope this is like so for people listening or watching that might be on the other side of it and they're like man? I'm just. I feel like the bottom's always going to about to drop out at any point. How do you, how do you kind of live with that? How do you wrestle through that?
Speaker 2:I think you have to. You have to play it out in your mind. Um, for a long time I told myself I don't even want to think about it, because I just don't even want to believe that it could happen. Um, I was talking to one of the ladies this week about, you know, hearing another person that's spouse has been out for two years go through a major relapse is actually like kind of scary to go through hearing them talk about it. But it helps, and this is why I think these groups are so helpful for me. Um, because you, you have to play it out in your mind and think that it could happen, but also, like I have this, have this hyper vigilance of like being worried about every little thing. Um, and so, for me, I've always thought like it's going to be a slow fade, and and I have to try to care for Michael and give him the credit he is due to not let myself like I don't know, I we're struggling with this because he thinks he's under a microscope and I don't want him to be under a microscope, but I also don't want there to be this slow fade back to where he was.
Speaker 2:And so there's different forms of relapse. It could be mental relapse, emotional relapse, different types of things that could start happening. That freak me out. That freak me out. And you know something that we're figuring out as a couples therapist, because I just think that we need a good, safe place for us to talk about this together. And yeah, I don't, I mean it's. It's a matter of balancing, like, what types of relapse are we, you know, okay with and are we going to work through together? And it's something that we have to face. Well, and you know this, but just for people, work through together and it's something that we have to face well, and you know this.
Speaker 1:but just for people listening, one thing valiant helps us with as we're transitioning is with a relapse kind of prevention plan, and one of the exercises was helpful for me I'm sure michael did it too. But you kind of have your, your red, green, yellow circles of things that like, hey, if I find myself as long as I'm in the green, I'm good. Now here's some yellow, some things that are like I gotta be cautious of, because this is where I'm slipping. And then the red category is like man, I'm in danger of relapse If I do this. But those only help if we keep it out in front, like if we're not constantly looking at it, cause it's really easy to get fatigued with the whole thing and just be like I'm good now, let me just live my life.
Speaker 1:But you have to work your program every day, every week, whatever that looks like, or you'll find yourself in those red categories and you know no one. You know no one plans necessarily to like come out and be like I'm definitely going to relapse. I mean, everyone's have that here. But they've got on their fridge, they've got their recovery plan and I'm just like well, that's great, because every day they see it and they're reminded. This is what I'm committed to and all those things. You've mentioned this a couple times. There's a call that happens, but just talk about your support systems at Valiant and just in your own life, for people that are listening or watching. What are some of the things where you've been able to draw strength from?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, um, that calls everyone to say, uh I? My therapist was like, cause I was talking about, michael has the call, he's got the alumni call, I've got a call, we've got kids, sports, we've got all this stuff. It just feels like there's so much stuff that it's hard to fit in. And she's like, if you don't need to do that, you can drop that. And I'm like, no, I need it.
Speaker 2:But I think what I love about it is it's like a scheduled time for myself to do this and like, when you guys come out, you have so many things that it's like you have to like that recovery plan. You have to be doing these things to help your recovery, but we don't. Maybe they need to come up with a form of like our healing plan or something, because it's like they have this recovery plan and I always feel like we're trying to make sure he's getting a step in, but then, unless I schedule my own types of support and things like it's not going to happen. Especially with young kids, like it's just life gets really busy. So just as much as they have to prioritize that, we have to prioritize our care and, like you know, the triggers that I've had since he's been home are. They come out of nowhere, they're unexpected um things that happen.
Speaker 2:So I think, hearing in these support systems of people that have gone through things at our at different stages of things, it's just really helpful to know like there's nothing wrong with you when you're having, when you're still struggling with these things.
Speaker 2:But also keeping in check like I think one thing like having that call every week does help me feel empowered again, like I remember, right when he got home, I was like crap, I don't have value to advocate for me anymore. Like I needed them and and it does keep me in check of like advocating for myself and learning how to do that, just like like knowing those ladies know so much about what, what we've been through and they're they're the easy people to talk to. Like I have two best friends that know everything and I talk to all the time, but they just don't get it on the same level as the other ladies. So that's where I found a lot of encouragement in that Um, but I I I didn't have to tap into like the easy friendships, because things that I think I've noticed about myself is stuff drains my energy like real quickly in this season of life, and so I have to like go to like the low hanging fruit to just get what I can get.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and part of it too, as you're talking to the alumni program that I know Michael's involved in, that's a big part of our vision. Behind that, too, is is to. Could you mention other? They're gone and you know, although Jill still has a way of kicking our butt long distance after, even after the program, she knows how to get to us. But yeah, I mean, I think that's so important for us guys to stay connected.
Speaker 1:I tell the alumni guys all the time this is more than just like a fraternity of guys who went through something. This is actually how this connection is going to. This was going to keep us living in sobriety and recovery and committed and all those things, and so sometimes showing up on a zoom can feel like, oh man, I don't know if I want to do this today, but it is the very thing that keeps us tethered to our commitments. And I see Michael working that and you're working that, which is just awesome, which gives us hope, because it was like, ok, like you said, we don't come out fix. It's like we come out with tools. Now we can choose how do we want to use it and then how are we going to continue to grow and learn and all those things All right.
Speaker 1:Last question I've kept you a long time because this has been, this has been so helpful. Thank you again for doing this Cause. My gosh, like the courage to talk about this stuff is. I can't even imagine. But if you're sitting down with a spouse or partner and you're just having coffee and you're right on cue, you took a drink of coffee right. As I said, that was perfect. We timed it. What encouragement, what advice would you give for, specifically, someone who is early on in this, whether they're just noticing things going on or their husband is at valiant or at in treatment? If you could go back and tell yourself anything, what advice and encouragement would you give?
Speaker 2:That's hard. I think you just have to understand to give yourself grace in the survival mode period, because but it's also you have to to give yourself grace but also give yourself credit, because there were so many things. Looking back, I can't believe I did what I did and I always tell people I'm like I felt like I've been struggling with anxiety post him being home, but I didn't at all prior to him going, while he was there, like I was good. And it's weird for me because I'm like that was when I was in these like survival modes. But it's amazing what your body can do. So I don't know. I still look back and think like, oh, I wish I had done that. Or you know, for a lot of it is like how did this not happen sooner? Or I don't know. I just I sometimes I do think like I, because I wasn't strong enough, is what led us to where we are.
Speaker 2:But I just have a lot of gratitude for our story and what happened and like I kept knowing that there had to be a point where things would change. So I was like just holding on to a hope, even though I had no idea, like even a year ago. If you had told me that Michael would go out to a 90 day program, I would have said not, michael, you're talking about somebody else. Like there's no way that he would ever. But I mean, I just had to take it one day at a time. But the other thing I'll say is, like our story is not everyone's story and I don't think that every, every couple should stay together. And so, like, whether it's the spouse listening to this or the guy, like I, I want, I would want the spouse to know like you don't need to stay in that and like to be a victory for yourself is not to like make your relationship work.
Speaker 2:Like I'm very thankful and have a lot of gratitude that Michael and I are where we're at, and I think it's because he did put in the hard work and I'm putting in the work.
Speaker 2:It still is a lot of work and it still is really hard. I'm putting in the work, it still is a lot of work and it still is really hard, um, but like I see other people that aren't together anymore and they're both individually doing great Um, or one is and one isn't, but it's their choice. So, like I think you know if, if your spouse is invalid and now you have to like utilize that to advocate for yourself and know like you're gonna have to carve your path wherever it goes um, but like you just can't lose sight of yourself in it. And and I know like it's hard to say that if your spouse is in active addiction, it's hard to like not lose sight of yourself. And I felt like I did a lot when he was so like that's what I would maybe, like I would beat myself up for it. Looking back, I beat myself up for it, but I was doing the best that I could, so that's that's what I could do at the time and I think that that was okay.
Speaker 1:That's such a kind and gracious answer. I'm glad you said that because, yeah, I don't want to read, I don't want to just say what you just said, because you said it perfectly. But not everyone's story is the same and not it's not. You know, like just like we had a therapist that sat down with jamie and I and just said the same thing this was post-valiant. Do you guys want to be married? Do you guys want to do like?
Speaker 1:because, it's, it's going to be work right and so like um. So thank you for that and awareness to kind of extend that to other people, because the last thing we want is for anybody to feel shame because their story went a different way. That's not what we're going after at all. So is your dog barking?
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, he's upstairs, he's good, he's out of the basement.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. I saw you laugh. I was like I think the dog is barking.
Speaker 2:You really didn't hear it at first. Oh, it was loud.
Speaker 1:No, I didn't hear it. It's funny. I just saw you laughing. I was like I think the dog barking. Is there anything else before I let you go? I've taken a lot of your time, but this has been incredible for you to share.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, um, I don't know. I feel like we covered a lot of things. Uh, yeah, I just have so much appreciation for Valiant and and even my therapist has said to me she appreciates so much that they do care for the whole family unit and I'm like same same thing over and over, but like they care about you whether you are with your partner or not. Like obviously, that would be best case, that would be a beautiful thing, but also the most wonderful thing for yourself might be that you get your healing and you move on.
Speaker 2:Like I know other people in my life that are not connected to Valiant and I'm like they're struggling with similar things and it's like you have to care for you and you have to just I don't know know that if you're not when you come out of this, that you are going to be okay whether you are with them or not, because they have to make their decisions. And I mean I also think, like you know, we are still really early in on this. I have said I have so much gratitude for where we're at, but I'm excited to see where we're at like a year or two from now too, because I think right now we're still having to put in a lot of work and I've heard people say, like it gets you put it. It's you're always putting in the work, but it gets a little bit easier. So it's you know, you just have to appreciate the season for what you're in right now and get what you can get out of it.
Speaker 1:Well, we appreciate you listening to this episode of the Valiant Living Podcast and our hope is that it helped you feel educated, encouraged and even empowered on your journey towards peace and freedom. If we can serve you or your loved one in any way, we'd love to have a conversation with you. You can call 720-756-7941 or email admissions at valiantlivingcom. At Valiant Living, we treat the whole person so you not only survive, but you thrive in the life you deserve. And finally, if this episode has been helpful to you, it would mean a lot to us if you'd subscribe and even share it with your friends and family. You can also follow along with us on Instagram and Facebook by simply searching Valiant Living. Thanks again for listening and supporting the Valiant Living podcast. We'll see you next week.
