Valiant Living Podcast
Welcome to the Valiant Living Podcast where we educate, encourage, and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom.
Valiant Living has been restoring lives and families since 2017 by providing multiple levels of care for men and their families. Fully accredited by The Joint Commission, Valiant Living has earned a national reputation as a premier treatment program, offering IOP, PHP, and recovery housing programs for men ages 26 and older. Founder and CEO MIchael Dinneen is a nationally recognized therapeutic expert, speaker, and thought leader in the behavioral health field.
On this podcast you’ll hear from the Valiant team as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at (720)-756-7941 or email admissions@valiantliving.com We’d love to have a conversation with you!
Valiant Living Podcast
Feeling SAFE: Navigating the Polyvagal Theory for Personal Growth and Connection
Unlock the secrets of your nervous system and transform your understanding of personal safety and connection, as we journey through the enlightening universe of polyvagal theory alongside a knowledgeable member of our Valiant team. This episode promises to broaden your perspective on how the autonomic nervous system, especially the vagus nerve, serves as a crucial link between the brain and body. We explore the foundational work of Stephen Porges and its clinical adaptations by Deb Dana, revealing how these insights can enhance our everyday interactions and even influence the environments we create for comfort and healing.
Guided by engaging stories and practical strategies, we examine the three states of our autonomic nervous system: social engagement, fight or flight, and shutdown. Discover how recognizing these states and finding "glimmers" of safety can be transformative, especially for those in recovery. The conversation seamlessly connects the dots between nervous system states, addiction recovery, and the importance of self-care and self-awareness. Through exercises, meditation, and self-compassion, we demonstrate how managing these states can lead to emotional resilience and a more balanced life.
Finally, the episode delves into the dynamics of healthy relationships and co-regulation, essential for recovery and emotional well-being. By sharing personal experiences and insights, we highlight the importance of understanding our own and our partners' nervous systems to foster connection and navigate conflicts. With resources like Stephen Porges' "Our Polyvagal World" and Deb Dana's "Anchored," listeners are equipped with tools to further explore these concepts and enhance their emotional intelligence and relationship dynamics. Join us for an enriching discussion that underscores the power of self-awareness and compassion on your journey to emotional and relational growth.
Well, hey, everyone. Welcome to the Valiant Living podcast, where we educate, encourage and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom. I'm your host, drew Powell, and I'm a grateful alumni of the Valiant Living program. Valiant Living offers hope and transformational change to men and their families struggling with addiction and mental health challenges. So on this podcast, you'll hear from the Valiant team, as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at 720-756-7941. Or you can email admissions at valiantlivingcom. We'd love to have a conversation with you, but for now, let's dive into today's episode. We got our safe pillows. We got our drinks. We got our drinks. I'm drinking a cold brew, coffee. I'm drinking a water, a huge water, huge water.
Speaker 2:You're gonna have to go to the bathroom halfway through this.
Speaker 1:We're here in your office. Yep, do you normally sit in this chair when you're doing therapy?
Speaker 2:Well, I just rearranged this office, so normally I would just do whatever.
Speaker 1:This feels like the therapist chair.
Speaker 2:It does, but it's wherever the client feels most comfortable.
Speaker 1:Is that how that works with you?
Speaker 2:For me it does yeah.
Speaker 1:Grateful that you're doing another podcast. We did one already. Yeah, it was awesome. Good Glad to hear your story and we'll link to that so people can go back and hear more about you if they want to. Yeah, wasn't that interesting to me, but I'm just kidding, it was awesome. I just I love being able to talk with you. I love your sense of humor. I love the work you do here. I won't rehash our funny story the way we met, but you can go back and listen to that on the first episode that we did together. But I just appreciate how you kind of show up around the office. I think it adds some levity and some fun. Thank you.
Speaker 2:To a very chaotic challenging. I mean you have to, yeah Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a survival mode maybe, kind of. That's awesome and we could probably do a whole episode on your son, jackson oh man, yes, we could just turn five, just turn five.
Speaker 2:Kindergarten says funny things. Yeah, he is funny just like quintessential energetic boy and so sweet yeah like just sweet sweet boy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, all right. So today we're going to talk about paul. You got a little little tear in your eye there, didn't you talk about jackson?
Speaker 2:you didn't look like you're getting choked up, not, not yet no although I get really passionate about poly bagel for real seriously yeah so I, you know, I For real, seriously, yeah, so I feel really deeply. Okay, I'm a four on the Enneagram. Oh, I didn't know that about you, which means I feel everything, and then I have feelings about my feelings, so I just get easily tearful.
Speaker 1:When there's issues going on, do you always think it's your fault?
Speaker 2:Not anymore.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. A lot of my four friends, if there's, if they feel since like attention and me. They always assume that we have an issue. But they can just sense that I'm off and I love that about them.
Speaker 2:There's so like, and maybe I'm pigeonholing them, but I mean, yeah, and that's a good thing to talk about with Polly Vagel too. See what we did there. You just unknowingly segued.
Speaker 1:So I full disclosure I know very little about polyvagal. You told me a little bit a visit or two ago and I was like we should do a podcast on that. We weren't teaching that theory as much when I was here at Valiant.
Speaker 2:Because I brought it in.
Speaker 1:Did you, I did Okay. So I'm excited because this will be all new info for me. So even like my question, like I don't even know hardly what to ask, so these were good questions actually. Well, could you just start like right at the top, like explain what is polyvagal theory.
Speaker 2:So, simply put, polyvagal is the science of safety.
Speaker 1:Okay, so our nervous system is looking for signs of safety or signs of threat. That's like simply what it is in a nutshell, Subconsciously, as we go down through life, we're looking for. Is this a threat or am I safe?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's not in your brain, it's not cognitively, it's in your body. Okay, so your body is reading different situations, interactions with people, all sorts of things to determine right, is this safe or is this a threat? Yeah, yeah, and it was developed by Stephen Porges.
Speaker 1:Okay, I read about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Mid-90s scientist looked at polyvagal from the side of studying animals and human beings and that nervous system component. Like very scientific, His books are a little-.
Speaker 1:Kind of heady Heady yeah.
Speaker 2:And then Deb Dana came around. Maybe like 20 years later she's a clinician and she adapted polyvagal for a clinical setting, so her books are a little bit easier to follow.
Speaker 1:To digest what drew you to this as a theory or a modality? Is it a modality as well, or is it more of a theory?
Speaker 2:It's more of a theory. It's more of a theory. It's not an evidence-based treatment, but I kind of see it as a way of life, as a way of seeing the world and myself.
Speaker 1:That's why we have safe pillows right now. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2:And hence why I rearranged this office.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I'm like oh man, my nervous system feels better, Gotcha. So even that matters how you feel when you walk into a room? Yes, gotcha, so even that.
Speaker 1:That matters how you feel when you walk into a room.
Speaker 2:Yes, and this is your second podcast. You should be part of that now. I'm not an expert. I'm so sorry. I don't feel safe.
Speaker 1:I just created a what would you call that in polyvagal.
Speaker 2:Sympathetic, Sympathetic. I'm like my heart is racing a little bit.
Speaker 1:I'm glad that we were able to do a a case study right here on the podcast.
Speaker 2:This is real time, Real time man yeah so. I forgot what you asked.
Speaker 1:I was talking about how you came into and this is how you see the world.
Speaker 2:Yes, so my son was born five years ago and I had pretty bad postpartum anxiety, Okay, and you know, whatever I got through it, I got stabilized and then the pandemic hit. I look back I'm like okay.
Speaker 1:What a time.
Speaker 2:What a time Back to back. Yeah, what a time. Universe.
Speaker 1:So you had like a one-year-old, basically Six-month-old, six-month-old during COVID.
Speaker 2:First-time parents and then you have the experience of I think everybody has their COVID traumas and ours were impacted by political separation, but different beliefs around COVID within our family our family of origin.
Speaker 2:And that activated my nervous system and there was medical stuff my husband and I were going through and being really isolated. So I was pretty stuck in a state sympathetic and dorsal I'll talk more about that for a couple years and I couldn't understand why, like I'm thinking the things, I'm thinking all the right things, of trying to get myself to feel better, but I couldn't. I was just stuck. And then I took this training on. It was an EMDR refresher and then they did a little bit on polyvagal.
Speaker 2:I was like oh my God, this makes sense. Like my nervous system is stuck.
Speaker 1:So you kind of had like an aha moment Like this is what I've been in for the last two years.
Speaker 2:And I didn't know.
Speaker 1:Didn't know, didn't know how to get out of it, because you didn't have language for it yet.
Speaker 2:And to get out of it. So the next year was still really hard, again, still in the pandemic, things were going on. I worked this was before Valiant so I worked for a group practice essentially and I was alone in an empty office just doing telehealth and it was really brutal that has to be tough. Yep, and so what actually got me out of it was working at Valiant.
Speaker 1:Oh really.
Speaker 2:When Stephen and Michael Sims were like hey, you should come over here, and then within I don't know a month, I was like oh my God, I feel better Because it was being around other people Like the community aspect of it helped. The connection. I don't feel so alone.
Speaker 1:So when we first met it's interesting you were still actively in that kind of state or coming. When we first met it's interesting, you were still actively in that kind of state or coming.
Speaker 2:I was starting to come out of it, Like I felt like myself again.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, that's really interesting. So you're just like, hey, we have to incorporate this into.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I started doing groups on it and and every time I did a group I was learning more because polyvagal, like I'll talk about the basics, but it's pretty vast. Once you read more about it and once you start to understand more, it's just yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, and as part of your fear on even doing this podcast, is how in the world do we cover this topic? And I was like, well, we're not going to try it, let's just talk about what we can talk about, and then maybe what's the appetite for people to go do some more reading or research. Maybe they have an aha moment, as we're talking through this.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm hoping.
Speaker 1:The disclaimer is we're not going to cover all of the polyvagal theory. This is just the tenants, the high level kind of overview of it. Yeah, where's the best place to start when it comes to unpacking this right?
Speaker 2:In terms of like literature.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or I mean just for our understanding, even on this podcast like so you know, you're talking about kind of how we show up in the world, our nervous system, all that different, different things, what. Where's the best place to kind of jump off with this conversation?
Speaker 2:So I think the vagus nerve is a good place to start. Okay, so the vagus nerve, you know we hear about all the time and we're like what is the vagus nerve? We hear about it all the time and we're like what is the vagus nerve? So the vagus, what's that? I've never heard of it before, you've never heard of it.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Okay, it's like I feel like if you search it on TikTok or social media, there's all these videos on the vagus nerve. So basically it's the 10th cranium nerve.
Speaker 2:So it starts at the back of our brain, stems and it kind of goes all around our bodies and lands in our gut. So when we say things like I have this gut feeling, or you know, my heart feels, oh my gosh, my heart feels broken. I feel it in my heart. That's the vagus nerve Interesting. So it's sort of this like this cable that goes from our body to our brain or our brain to our body and it's just sending information either down or up in this place of information.
Speaker 1:All right, so we don't have to follow this rabbit trail, but does this affect gut health?
Speaker 2:Totally Okay. Yes, we need to talk about that Absolutely. Health totally okay. Yes, we need to talk about that absolutely so this is an interesting thing I read about is 80 of what we experience goes from brain to body I'm sorry, body to brain and 20 goes from brain to body. Interesting, which is really like when I, when I read that, I was like, wait, it feels backwards, like we always. I think we tend to think that you know, our thoughts control our body, and it does, but that's only 20% of the time. So really, what informs our thinking starts in our body. Interesting, and that makes sense, right Like times where, okay, I feel really stuck and my thinking isn't getting me out of this.
Speaker 1:Right. It's our bodies right, you can't think your way out of.
Speaker 2:Not when you're locked in a state.
Speaker 1:Okay, can we go there next? Yeah let's go there. So that was part of some of the research we did. Three different states our nervous system can be in. There's the social engagement state, there's the fight or flight state and the shutdown state. Yeah, is that the language you use for that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so let me give an overview. Overview so the autonomic nervous system is what?
Speaker 1:has these three states.
Speaker 2:So when you hear of autonomic, think of automatic, like physiologically, this is our heart beating, it's our lungs breathing, it's our digestion, like things that are happening automatically without us thinking about it. And within the autonomic nervous system there's two branches, so there's a sympathetic and the parasympathetic. Okay, and then, just to confuse you even more, you were reading that on my face.
Speaker 1:I was. I was like he's, like he's moving on a little bit and we're gone.
Speaker 2:The parasympathetic has two pathways. So this is the vagus nerve. So one pathway goes from brain to gut, okay, and then the other pathway goes from brain to gut and then the other pathway goes gut to neck and throat and ears and eyes and sort of the facial nerves. So that's sort of the overview of the autonomic nervous system and then within that there's three states, okay. So ventral vagal is I say up here, because that's where a lot of the nerves are, is in our kind of our head and our neck and our heart a little bit Sympathetic, and then dorsal vagal Okay. So I'll start with ventral.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So ventral is where we feel totally safe, we feel connected. We feel connected, we feel resourced, we feel grounded, and when we are in ventral, that's when we're accessing that social engagement system that you talked about.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's where we are, so those two are connected.
Speaker 2:The social- engagement and the ventral Ventral. But you can't engage the social engagement system unless you're in ventral, unless you feel. Completely safe, completely safe engagement system unless you're in ventral, unless you feel completely safe, completely safe and calm and like yeah what are some examples of that? So this can be hard for people, especially in early recovery yeah because it's like I don't I don't know what that feels like.
Speaker 1:Right, that's what I'm asking myself right now but even I'm two years sober, but I still have a lot of fear, a lot of anxiety, a lot of. So I'm like, how do you do? I'm like, how do I get to that state? I don't want that state yet.
Speaker 2:Well, you have it in small moments, so these are called glimmers. So like if you're with your kids right, that's a moment of ventral. If you have a pet and you're, just like you know, petting the dog or the cat and you're like, okay, I feel really calm. Or you're looking at something beautiful like a sunset or something in nature, Right.
Speaker 1:So you have these glimmers of being in a vengeful state.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and sometimes they're more than glimmers. But I think that's a good place to start. When people are saying I don't know what that feels like. I've been living in sympathetic for 20 years, Is that?
Speaker 1:helpful. That's super helpful. Yeah, because I relate to that, because I definitely have moments where I feel a lot of peace and I feel like it's just not my default.
Speaker 2:And I don't think it is for a lot of us, right, because a lot of us I mean, I feel like most everyone has trauma in some capacity, sure, and so we oftentimes don't really know what ventral feels like, which is why we have to start paying attention and why we call it those glimmers. So, noticing like oh yeah, that's.
Speaker 2:When your mind is kind of at rest and you're not you know, not necessarily at rest, because when we're in ventral, we're actually able to make better decisions, like your prefrontal cortex, that executive functioning is accessible when you're in ventral, so this is not a matter of just total disengagement.
Speaker 1:then this is actually just a healthier way of responding and thinking Okay.
Speaker 2:So like when you're in a group like when you were here and when you were really feeling connected to the other men and you were really feeling safe. That's an example of ventral Okay.
Speaker 1:Yep, so it's not even necessarily. Is it void of even, is it void of anxiety? Or can you have ventral? And still, because, like in that moment you just described, yes, I felt completely safe and all those things, but it wasn't like I had no problems or issues in the world, totally.
Speaker 2:Right. It just means for that moment though in the world.
Speaker 1:Totally Right it just means for that moment, though. For that moment yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, Because these things are kind of they can be moments.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm tracking Yep, that's awesome, all right, and the next one, so sympathetic.
Speaker 2:Anything more on that on the ventral, we'll probably come back to it, okay.
Speaker 1:But for now yeah.
Speaker 2:That's fight or flight, okay, right. So when we are feeling safe, sympathetic is we're taking a run, we are feeling motivated, it's a state of mobilization, okay, so there's movement happening. That's when we feel safe. Okay, I think of Melissa a lot. Okay, she's got a lot of sympathetic, like she's got energy and she's on the move, yeah, constantly.
Speaker 1:So it's not a bad thing, no, like she's got energy and she's on the move, yeah, constantly.
Speaker 2:So it's not a bad thing. No, actually, none of these states are a bad thing, they're just adaptive. Okay, when we're feeling unsafe, when we feel danger, fight or flight, anger, anxiety, panic attacks, irritability, defensiveness, rage. So that feeling right, that's all in that sympathetic state All in the sympathetic right. I'm guessing you know what that feels like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean yeah, I haven't heard the third one, but I feel like fight or flight is probably where I live most of the time. Yeah, because I feel like for me, I can swing that pendulum pretty quick. So when my, when I feel my anxiety peak, I usually have one. I'm either I'm going to take control and I'm going to go and fix this thing, I'm going to make it happen, I'm going to go whatever, or the other way, like I just I'm like I can't do this anymore, I got to go. You know then, like I'm kind of the polar opposites, so and I don't know if that's more shutdown state or fight or flight, but that feels like my. My natural response to anxiety is either take more control or to escape.
Speaker 2:Is it to escape or to? Yeah, and I guess we don't know yet if it's shut down. But when you're in that state, what do you feel in your body? How do you know you're anxious, for instance?
Speaker 1:Well, I feel like my mind is in constant racing, figuring, strategizing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so a lot of my. This is a great therapy session for me, by the way. This is awesome. It's my welcome seat. I feel very safe me, by the way. This is awesome. It's my office. I feel very safe.
Speaker 2:It's designed that way.
Speaker 1:So yeah, mind constantly racing and I'm either in I'm trying to figure it out mode and come up with a solution to make myself feel more at peace, or I'm actively checking out. To not have my mind race and not think about those things is not as often where I feel like I'm at like awareness of the situation but at peace with it.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:It's either like numb out, it can just be like TV I need to watch. I need to just get my mind on something totally different or I've got to work. I need to just get my mind on something totally different.
Speaker 2:Or I've got to work, I've got to do something.
Speaker 1:For me, it's mostly about finances, if I'm being honest, yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's a trigger. Yeah Right, a lot of financial fear. Totally yeah. So I think all of us have different triggers that activate that sympathetic response. Okay, right Finances. Social media yes. Being an electioneer reading headlines Lines anywhere that you have to wait in line.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, crowded malls, traffic, traffic. Right Now, if we're pretty resourced, let's say, let's use this example of you're driving wherever and you hear a fire truck, okay, and you have that like, okay, I got to pull over. And you have that like shot of adrenaline and then you take a deep breath and then you can move back up to ventral. You're not really stuck there, because you just feel it for a minute and then you go back up. I think.
Speaker 1:I might've had that today actually. Okay, because I was sitting in the courtyard having lunch with a new client and I had almost like a PTSD because he was starting his 90 days. And I went back to sitting in that courtyard at the beginning of my 90 days and, like, if I like, started feeling panicky, almost as if I was like starting it, like my mind was telling me I was back in yeah, or or maybe your body, I don't know my body, oh yeah, yeah yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:But I was able to be like. It was a moment like I was able. No, this is good, helpful, whatever. But yeah, it came over me like a wave, like I was like yeah, no, that's a great example.
Speaker 2:Okay, so that's how this stuff gets stored, right Is those memories are stored in our body. Okay, and even though rationally you're like okay, well, I'm not starting treatment.
Speaker 1:Like I'm just hanging out with this dude, I've got to fight home tomorrow, right.
Speaker 2:But your body is remembering what that feels like.
Speaker 1:And then it's informing your thinking, that's exactly right, yeah, and because you're fairly're going up to ventral and pretty quickly, right, yeah, yep, like it was all. It all happened while we were sitting there at lunch. Yes, the four guys with me had no idea it was happening, yes, but I was like, wow, I feel like I'm here.
Speaker 2:Let me kind of I don't even know the right language but kind of talk myself through this moment yes to get like I'm okay, we're okay, everything's okay right and again you had enough ventral um energy to have that decision-making and to talk yourself through it, gotcha. So, for instance, I guess my experience of those couple years where I was locked in, sympathetic and dorsal, my view about the story I was saying about I am, people are the world is.
Speaker 1:You couldn't get out.
Speaker 2:Those answers were dictated by that state. So when we're in ventral, you know I am safe, the world, no, people are beautiful and the world is safe. When you go in sympathetic and you answer those same questions, they're going to be different, interesting, because you're in a different state. Okay, yep, and we're going to move up and down the ladder, the ladder meaning ventral sympathetic dors. And we're going to move up and down the ladder, yeah, the ladder meaning ventral sympathetic dorsal. We're going to move up and down that ladder, probably like all day.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Unless we're stuck in that state.
Speaker 1:Gotcha Anything more on that one? I don't think so Okay, we can come back to it. We'll come back to it, all right, and then dorsal is the last, or Yep, dorsal.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So dorsal, shutdown, immobilization, Okay. So if sympathetic is danger, dorsal is extreme danger. And again, this is not about actually being safe, it's about feeling safe. Okay, so the example that you just had of you're anxious, you want to take control and then you're like whatever.
Speaker 1:I'm going to just watch TV.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that sounds want to take control. And then you're like whatever, I'm gonna just watch tv. Yeah, that sounds like dorsal. It sounds like you're you just you've had it, your um immobilization or dorsal can be depression.
Speaker 1:It can just be like walking through the day like I'm out a little bit I'm out.
Speaker 2:It's a case of the efforts yeah um suicide ideation lives here um you, just, you just don't really care, you're just exhausted.
Speaker 1:You're done dealing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yep, and again, when we're stuck there um it can have um effects on us yeah, right yeah and um, and it's pretty common too right, right, but it is helpful to know that it can fluctuate throughout the day. Right, yep is where my mind's going next, so we can take it wherever you want to go. But you've said stuck a few times. My mind is, I mean, how do I avoid getting stuck? How do you get stuck? And then, are there ways to get unstuck? You talked about a job. You move jobs. That helped you get unstuck. But for those listening or watching that are hearing like man, I think I might be, I might be stuck. I guess I'm like how do we, how do we get stuck and how do you get unstuck?
Speaker 2:So I think we get stuck by. I mean, it just depends on the experience that we're going through, um, and the first part of this is just identifying what state you're in. It's all about awareness and then being able to practice what's going to get you through it or out of it, and a lot of this is going to look different for many people. So, thinking about sympathetic when we're in that anxious place, for instance, sometimes that might move by exercising, sometimes that might move by taking a walk or connecting with somebody. One thing is you call someone and you just like rant when you're anxious or angry. Sometimes that can help, sometimes it's going to make it worse. It just depends. Sometimes cleaning when we're in that anxious or angry state because we're moving we're moving that energy Dorsal might be something like you know you're doing some self-soothing you're trying to meditate or pray, or sometimes you just need to go to sleep and then wake up and you're like yeah, I feel better the next day.
Speaker 2:So I think some of these states are really dictated by trying a couple different things and figuring out what works for you. I know, personally, I struggle with meditating. You're touching my heart. I have a lot of feeling. It's okay. You're a four, I know I'm a four.
Speaker 1:I can't help it. I love it. Thank you, perfect, you don't have to change. I just wish you'd quit hitting your mic. I will change that. I will change that, if you change that little thing about yourself.
Speaker 2:It would be great. Yeah, like I don't like meditating. I've always struggled with it. Okay, and I recently, kind of I was listening to a podcast by Deb Dana and it helped me feel so much better, because meditating isn't for everybody, you know. For me I, sitting still with my thoughts, actually causes me anxiety yeah and so.
Speaker 1:So part of it is finding your pathway to whatever it might be. For some people it's a hard work, like I had someone told me recently. The only way for me to get out of that is to like a like brutally hard workout, like not just a walk, whatever. But I want to go and just really work out hard and that might not work for you. That's not my jam.
Speaker 2:Totally, that's not my thing, but a walk or something like that.
Speaker 1:For me is like yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's what I love about this is there's no shoulds. Like well, you're in dorsal, you should do this, Like okay, no, it doesn't work for me. So really like starting to befriend your nervous system and figure out, okay, what feels safe. It's all about safety. Working a brutal workout, it doesn't feel safe. You feel whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not for me, not for you, right, well, and one thing a little bit tangent, but one thing that I love about what I took away from Valiant that you guys teach a lot is what you just said about showing compassion and befriending these different. You know, we've talked parts of self on here and now this it's like I love that you guys help us not feel shame about what we're experiencing at the moment. Like you know, we're feeling a certain way Okay, well, let's have some awareness around it, which is really helpful, but we kind of pull out the right and wrong, bad and right. You know what I'm saying Good and bad, that type of thing it's not about that anymore.
Speaker 1:It's about okay, even with addiction, which I want to get into here in a minute. How does this shows up and affects addiction, trauma and all that stuff. But it's so beautiful how you guys teach us to befriend those things and to look at it and be like okay. At one point we even thanked certain addictions that helped us survive certain moments that God said we don't need them anymore. Thank God, we don't have to use them anymore. But I think that's a really beautiful part of recovery.
Speaker 2:Totally, and it's if you come into a program and you're sort of beat down, your nervous system isn't going to feel safe. Your nervous system is going to go to a place of probably sympathetic or dorsal. It doesn't. You know one of those and you're not going to be able to do the work. And I think this is sort of a known about therapy, but this gives it more language around. Yeah, If you don't feel safe in this space with me, with another person, you're going to have a different experience, right, totally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so how does this play out specific for recovery, addiction recovery, trauma how do you see this kind of interacting with those things in this specific context?
Speaker 2:Well, so, in terms of the addiction piece, it's kind of you know what feelings, what state are you in that you are numbing with a certain substance.
Speaker 1:So, meaning.
Speaker 2:I'll use myself as an example. So my drugs of choice were alcohol and weed I started using in my late teens. I was pretty depressed most of the time and when I found weed I was like, oh man, I don't feel. I don't feel so depressed anymore, I kind of feel good. But it wasn't really ventral, but my system thought it was. It was this like math Kind of tricking your system into thinking. Thinking I feel better. And alcohol, same kind of thing. It actually most of the time it elevated my energy.
Speaker 2:It kind of gave me that different relationship, um different relationship with the world and myself.
Speaker 2:Um, for some people who might have sex addiction, um, I'm using a, you know, bland example, but they might feel depressed and then, like, the planning stage of acting out is really exciting and kind of anxiety inducing. So they're going to be in sympathetic and then they use and the shame, or they act out and the shame happens. So they're going to be in sympathetic and then they use and the shame, or they act out and the shame happens, so they're going to go back down to dorsal. So that's kind of how this, this plays out.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So it's really getting curious in early recovery of how, what, what state was I in that I didn't want to be, in that my addiction was trying to protect me from? I mean, polyvagal and IFS actually pair really beautifully together.
Speaker 1:Oh really, yeah. I mean polyvagal and IFS actually pair really beautifully together. Oh really, yeah. I mean, as you're talking, I'm like gosh, there seems to be a lot of similarities.
Speaker 2:So if you think of your system as it's not wrong, it's just protecting you, right Protection over connection.
Speaker 1:I like that. So it's just a matter of which direction do you turn to try to get to a more grounded state, right, right? So in addiction we're in the fight or flight, the shutdown state, and we're trying to get to that peaceful state, right, is that what you're saying, right? So we're turning to these other things.
Speaker 2:Right To numb out even. To numb out Right so another example is somebody who's just really anxious like all the time and they use a substance to kind of go okay, I can just like not feel anything. So it's dorsal and that helps keep them safe. Perceived safety right.
Speaker 1:So what's the goal then? Is the goal to find tools to help you get to that safe state without you're shaking your head? No, already, so I'm off track.
Speaker 2:So yes and no. So so the goal is not to be in ventral all the time okay, that's not a thing.
Speaker 1:That's where I was going with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally, and I think that's a common question okay um, because we're human beings and we're gonna fluctuate and we need these systems.
Speaker 1:That's what I'm sitting here thinking Give me tools so I can stay in ventral 99% of the time, All the time, but then we wouldn't feel.
Speaker 2:Let me talk about mixed states really quick, because this is important. So when we are in ventral and sympathetic, we are feeling energized and mobilized and also connected to other people. So say like you know going to play, you're going to play pickleball with friends or you're dancing with your kids. That's a mixed state that we need. That A mixed state of ventral and dorsal is rest and relaxation and love and intimacy. Okay, so I think about so you can be experiencing two at the same time.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I think about, so you can be experiencing.
Speaker 2:Two at the same time. Okay, yeah, and it's just the way the vagus nerve is sort of. There's pictures of it you can find of the way the vagus nerve is lying in your system Interesting. It's a huge nerve. It's called the wanderer in Latin because it just goes all over our bodies. Wow, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, no wonder it plays such a huge role in how we show up in the world Right yeah, right, right yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think of a picture of a caregiver, you know, reading to their child or putting their child to bed. That is ventral and dorsal, Like you're, you're relaxed, you're connected. You're not touching your microphone.
Speaker 1:It's fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So help me understand this a little bit more. When you say it's both, it's because the ventral, you're feeling peaceful. But how does the shutdown state show up in that moment?
Speaker 2:So not always shut down. So, when we feel safe in dorsal, we feel at rest, we feel relaxed. It's a little bit confusing and it's because these are both part of the parasympathetic Got it, so they can feel really similar when we are safe in dorsal and when we're safe in ventral. Got it the difference with ventral is that you're able to access that social engagement piece, gotcha.
Speaker 1:You're not shut off, you're not disconnected. Right, right, that makes total sense.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So dorsal rest is like I'm numbed out, I'm maybe escaping, I'm maybe not in tune or connected with the world around me.
Speaker 2:When we're not safe, when we're not safe Right, and when we are safe, it can be again like you're in group and you're sitting down and you're relaxed, but you're engaged. You're listening, you're connected to your peers and to the facilitator. So you're in that mixed state. There's connection happening and then sympathetic and dorsal, that's the freeze. So fight, flight is sympathetic, freeze is actually sympathetic and dorsal. So that's where we like, we want to move, we want to go, but we can't.
Speaker 1:It's just like Is it apathy?
Speaker 2:I feel like apathy might be more dorsal, yeah, yeah. Just not given a F.
Speaker 1:Right, right, what does that stand for?
Speaker 2:again, frank, all right, let me. Can I talk to you about one more thing? Yeah, please.
Speaker 1:Well, I was about to turn the corner.
Speaker 2:So neuroception, I also it's just such a great word and it's a great explanation around polyvagal. So neuroception is sort of like our spidey sense. So it's our home surveillance system. It's constantly scanning the environment for signs of safety, signs of threat, and it does this three ways outside, inside, in between. So outside is the environment, it's this room, it's lighting, external.
Speaker 1:External.
Speaker 2:Right, and it could be on a bigger scale, like what we experience in the world around racism, sexism, sexual orientation, things in our bodies that we're going to say is this safe or not? Inside is what's happening in our body. So this is all like, I think, of chronic pain or just feeling sick. Right, that's going to determine which nervous system state we go into, and then in between, is my nervous system and your nervous system kind?
Speaker 2:of picking up those cues Interesting Right. So right now I feel I was kind of nervous at the beginning of this and then, as we're talking, I'm settling down. I still have some excitement, but I feel safe, I feel connected, my nervous system feels really attuned to yours.
Speaker 1:So that's kind of when you're vibing, or if I'm picking up on someone's emotion and that's affecting how I'm experiencing that moment. Right, okay.
Speaker 2:Your neuroception is kicking in and that it informs your autonomic nervous system which state to go in.
Speaker 1:Oh okay.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of it's really cool. It's detection without perception. So our bodies are are detecting something without us thinking like, oh, it's safe.
Speaker 1:Like we're not thinking that.
Speaker 2:It's just our bodies feel it first, like, oh, it's safe, like we're not thinking, we're not going there. It's just our bodies feel it first and it's by neuroception and steven poore just invented that word and it's pretty cool that's super cool yeah how does?
Speaker 1:or this is another rabbit trail. This is where my mind went. What's the difference in that and codependency as far as? Do you know what I'm saying? Like I'm taking on your, like I'm feeling what you're feeling.
Speaker 2:So I'm now taking on your because I think there's empathy, like I can feel what you're feeling, but I'm not also gonna enter into that yeah anger with you or whatever well, that's a really good point and I think, yeah, our nervous systems are going to constantly read and react to one another okay but then I think it's maybe the behavior that we take it to that makes sense right so if we are affected by somebody's nervous system and then it completely rules our day, um determines our day, and maybe that person's in a different state, right, but we're still carrying it, right?
Speaker 1:that's maybe some codependency, whereas if we didn't perceive it at all, then we're kind of walking down through the world without empathy or being able to see other people.
Speaker 2:Right, there's that inability to connect which then we? Kind of go back to addiction and intimacy disorder and it all lines up right, yep, yep this is so good, all right.
Speaker 1:Can we turn anything else on that? Because I want to talk a little bit about for, uh, supporting loved ones through this, because a lot of people that listen and watch this are listening, watching on behalf of a loved one that's either here at Valiant or Struggle with Addiction or something like that. How is just even just understanding this, how is it helpful for us to be able to, like, show up for these?
Speaker 2:For the clients, for their spouses and loved ones, loved ones kids. I think the first step is to understand your own nervous system. I think it's to recognize, all right gosh, this person's addiction has really sent me into a spiral, and I've been living in sympathetic for however long. And what do I need to do to take care of myself and help regulate myself Again, not always in ventral but, learn to befriend my nervous system so that I can better show up for the loved one nervous system.
Speaker 2:So that I can better show up for the loved one, because I've seen this happen so many times, where the client is getting healthier but the family member isn't, because their nervous system is stuck, and then we're treating the family more than the client. And that's why we encourage family members like come to the groups, do therapy, do whatever you need to do to help resource and regulate your nervous system, because of course, you're traumatized right.
Speaker 1:Yep, I love that. The answer that you guys almost always give to how can I best support and serve my loved one is to do your own work, of course I mean, and that is can be tough, especially if there's betrayal or trauma or whatever, where it's like.
Speaker 2:This isn't my problem.
Speaker 1:They did this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they did and it affected the nervous system. And if you think of it like that, to have some compassion around, like, yes, they did this, but I'm impacted and I need to take care of myself so that, even if I'm not better for them, I'm better for myself, for my kids, right?
Speaker 1:Right, it may not even be your fault, your, whatever, you know but, what's the line you guys say, oh, it's not, it may not be your fault, but it's your responsibility to then kind of care for yourself. Absolutely yes, and yeah I love that that's an emphasis here the family system, it's so important.
Speaker 2:I like to think of it like a solar system, and when the addict is, everybody's circling around, the addict, yeah, and it's dysfunctional, and then the addict gets clean and sober, but the family is still off balance, and so everybody has to do their own work in order to create a different healthy system.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. All right, so here's what I got on the on the page you can tell me where we need to go next, Cause I've got. We're like only halfway through our question.
Speaker 2:I know that's why I'm like there's so much. No, it's great.
Speaker 1:We got co-regulation.
Speaker 2:That's a good one.
Speaker 1:Do we want to talk about that? Do we want to talk about let's see practical applications.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about co-regulation. That's a good one, so we kind of touched on it. Yep, excuse me before where my nervous system is reading your nervous system. Okay, so I think of co-regulation as um, I'm going to make it applicable to Valiant. Um, let's say, you're a new client and you come, this is your first day and you're just terrified Yep, You're, you're well. Tell me how you felt that first day. This is your first day and you're just terrified. Tell me how you felt that first day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was scared to death. I had no idea what to expect. I didn't know if I was going to be put in a padded room for 90 days and unlocked. I just had no. So I was super afraid, felt tons of shame and really sad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I really miss my family. Yeah, like just the shame and sadness was overwhelming. Yeah, that I really miss my family. Yep, like just the shame and sadness was overwhelming, yes. And then I was angry, like why am I here? Why, like you know, running through all those emotions, like, first of all, I'm pissed that I have to be here because of you know my actions and everything else, and I'm pissed that there's worse people in the world that aren't here. Why am I here? And I have to be here because of my actions and everything else, and I'm pissed that there's worse people in the world that aren't here. Why am I here and I have to be here? So it was just a cluster of high, high emotion.
Speaker 2:And so you're vacillating between sympathetic and dorsal. And then you come to Valiant, and I didn't know you then. But co-regulation works as the more calm and resourced. Our own nervous systems are like staff. You're going to start to pick up on that. Okay, if housing is mostly stable and resourced, the treatment team is, your peers are, there's co-regulation happening because you're dysregulated when you come and that's why it's so important for our team to just be that place of like hey, we're that warm hug, we're safe. And then maybe not right away, but in time your system is going to go. Okay, I feel I can self-regulate now. Co-regulation leads to self-regulation, okay, okay.
Speaker 1:Is that kind of drafting off someone else's? Yes, kind of drafting off someone else's?
Speaker 2:Yes, Nervous system, Nervous system Right. And again like if you come into Valiant or somewhere else and everybody's just like super chaotic and anxious and angry. You're going to, you're going to feel that.
Speaker 1:Well, there was, there was a period of time when I was here where the milieu was very dysregulated together, yep Towards Valiant.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:That happens. You've never experienced that before. Yeah, and it was just. It was all of us addicts in one place together, banding together to fight back for whatever little bit of control that we could get. Looking back on it, it was completely ridiculous. But similar thing in reverse right, Exactly.
Speaker 2:We were kind of dysregulating one another. And that's a great example of this is how our nervous system affects other people. I mean, I'm going to take it into a bigger scale if I think about the pandemic and all of this fear that was happening, and then it just it was breeding more fear and breeding anger, and that's another example of this is how it works right. Or you go into a meeting, a 12-step meeting, and you're like I don't want to be here.
Speaker 2:I hate, this, and then by the end of the meeting you're like oh okay, it was all right Because there's co-regulation happening in that room. We just don't know it, but we feel it, we feel it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that happens every Tuesday night. We have our alumni meeting every Tuesday night. It's a Zoom meeting. Guys from all over the nation tune in, and a lot of times that is tough, like eight o'clock on Tuesday night. I'm exhausted, I'm tired, whatever. But by the end of the meeting every time, literally every time, I'm like I love those guys, they're my brothers. I needed that tonight, right, and it was just attunement, attunement, yeah. Regulation. I guess is a new word for me, but this was happening.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, and and all these other examples you can think of of you know you go somewhere you don't really want to be there. And then the person that greets you I'm thinking of a dentist office I don't love the dentist, who does Most people. You go in and say the person that greets you just has a really warm smile and their tone is really soothing. Your nervous system is going to go through. Neuroception is going to be like okay, cool, I feel safe. My heart rate is calming down a little bit. I can take a deep breath.
Speaker 1:What a great gift we can give to people too. I know it's not all about that, but, as you're talking about, to be able to be a person, to be that person for other people, realizing that we do have an effect on people that we encounter.
Speaker 2:So the fact that if we show up in the world as a non-atrix presence, obviously that's great for us, but it's great for everyone in our ecosystem too Absolutely, and that's the whole idea of Polyvagal is to understand more about your nervous system so that you can come at it from a place of not reacting, which that's very hard to do. I'm not saying, like, again, the goal is to be adventurel, right, but the goal is to really notice where you are on the map, yeah, and figure out or feel what you need in order to get resourced, and then that's going to impact others.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep, and we're not perfect at it, I mean even as a therapist.
Speaker 1:You don't have it dialed in completely yet. I wish I did.
Speaker 2:And there are certain days like I feel it and I'm like oh yeah, I'm really in it.
Speaker 1:But at least you have the awareness of it, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Now, because I think you said it earlier, which I think has been it's so important, it's been important for me at least is not even to try to fix myself when I feel it, but just to be aware of it and say okay, because that's even when we started this. But just to be aware of it and say okay, because even when we started this conversation.
Speaker 1:I was just like tell me the fix. How do I stay in this state of peace? That's always my default, but giving myself the grace to be able to feel something and just to be able to sit in it Like, hey, I'm sad right now, I'm not going to, not that there's not tools I can go on a walk and do different things, but to sit with it, to sit with it and relationship with it like a part yeah Right.
Speaker 2:And also not to when we're insympathetic and we rage and we break a window to say like, well, I mean, that's just my sympathetic, I'm not saying that either.
Speaker 1:Right, it's not a free pass to just act a fool.
Speaker 2:But it's to kind of reflect, probably later, and go okay, what was I scared of, what did I feel threatened by? What was happening? Is this related to trauma? Is this right to just? Get more curious when you're able.
Speaker 1:Isn't that so? Much of addiction is that which is, if I can have awareness over what I'm actually feeling, then I can choose to not medicate with whatever the drug of choice, whatever I can say, oh, this is what's actually happening. I mean, probably one of my biggest takeaways from being here was the alcohol, the sex, the drugs, whatever. That's a symptom of the deeper issue that's going on, and we all have more in common with one another. Actually, regardless of what your drug of choice is Like, deep down we're all experiencing fear, anxiety, anger the same kind of core feelings.
Speaker 2:Lack of connection.
Speaker 1:Yeah, lack of connection and we're learning how to. That's the intimacy disorder thing. I've heard you and Jill and others say really all addiction is an intimacy disorder. We're learning how to kind of connect ourselves, reconnect ourselves back in the world without having to use people or other things or substances or whatever, and we can connect back in the world when we are in ventral, if that makes sense. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And think about a time when you're unsympathetic and you're either really anxious or maybe having a. I'll use my own example of like fighting with my spouse.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Neither of us are going to make a good decision Right In that moment. Right, we're hijacked by our emotions and we're protective. It's only when we're able to move out of those states are we able to go okay, yeah, you know, maybe get curious intellectually or feel that love for one another, but when we're hijacked, we can't so, practically speaking, in that example is it best to kind of take a take a break and allow yourself to maybe okay maybe, um, that's one option.
Speaker 2:Or sometimes you know my spouse and I practice this a lot because we both have done a lot of therapy and really look at a lot of this from polyvagal.
Speaker 1:And you're wrong a lot. So there's probably a lot of tension in the house because of that Right Go ahead. I didn't interrupt.
Speaker 2:No, and thank you for pointing that out. That's helpful.
Speaker 1:I'll let you finish, sorry, I just wanted to. Oh my, let you finish, sorry.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to. Oh my God, we've tried to learn how to co-regulate. So if somebody is less angry, to kind of go okay, I'm feeling this. My partner, I'm noticing, is also in sympathetic. What is going to help him? What I've learned about my husband, ron, is to give him some touch, to hug him.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:That's hard for me because I have attachment, wounding like crazy Wow. So I've had to do a lot of work on okay, I don't feel safe at all. I just want to run away and that's going to make everything worse. So practicing with my nervous system and going okay, he needs connection, he needs to know that it's okay. That's the hard thing, that's really beautiful.
Speaker 1:That seems like 401 level, you know, to be able to acknowledge in the middle of when both people are somewhat dysregulated. To be able to acknowledge in the middle hey, he or she is more dysregulated than me right now, so I can actually show up for them.
Speaker 2:And let me be clear, that's probably happened like twice. Right Like this, isn't like a no but I love that idea.
Speaker 1:I mean, if we can. It goes back to the awareness. If we can understand and be aware and co-regulate like hey, this is actually going to diffuse, diffuse.
Speaker 2:Diffuse, diffuse.
Speaker 1:Through an Diffuse, diffuse, yeah, diffuse, threw an extra S in there, diffuse the whole situation. Right, if I can dig deep and show up for my partner in this way?
Speaker 2:And this is kind of another rabbit trail, but our spouses are like it's like learning how the car works, Like learning how their system works, how their system works yeah, and that takes time and that takes vulnerability and that takes a lot of work and patience. And, yeah, we're not perfect. I mean I can have this, talk and then go home and probably start a fight with them because I'm wrong a lot apparently that's what Ron told me.
Speaker 1:Well, he's right.
Speaker 2:He's like wrong again yeah this is what he's doing, and then yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well in practice. It's always harder to put it into practice, the theory, but I feel like even just this conversation for me is going to help me. Like you said, it shows up in our everyday life.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:We can check in with ourselves throughout the day and kind of be like what.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and feeling it in our body, like I was just noticing, like my arms got a little tense.
Speaker 1:Really, and it was probably because I shared a vulnerable piece of my personal life, and so there was that.
Speaker 2:When you're talking about the marriage piece. Your arm got tense. Yep, interesting. So again, I'm just kind of putting this in practical content of okay, I felt a little bit nervous there. I'm sharing something vulnerable. What are other people going to think? Oh my God.
Speaker 1:Tighten up a little bit.
Speaker 2:Right, so I tighten. So you know, am I in full sympathetic? No, but I feel a little bit of it. So it's also being able to feel. What are we feeling in our body? Whether it's muscle tension, our heart is increasing, we might have dry mouth. We might be fidgeting right. It's really starting to go. What is happening in my body Interesting, and when we're in addiction we don't pay attention to any of that at all. This is another practice that I think is so important and why I kind of brought it into Valiant.
Speaker 2:I'm like, yeah, this is a great thing to start learning Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Anything before we go. Anything else that needs to be shared on Polyvagal Probably else that needs to be shared on polyvagal because this probably this has been extremely helpful, like this is an episode that I'll go back and listen to again myself.
Speaker 2:I hope so. I hope it wasn't too um too much information where I confused people I don't think so.
Speaker 1:I mean, I felt confused a couple times, but you went back and explained it really well. So thank you for yeah good for sharing this and for those listening watching again, again, if they want to do more digging on this. What's some resources?
Speaker 2:So Stephen Porges and his son, who's a journalist, wrote a book and it's a really great read. I wasn't lost. In the technical terms it's called Our Polyvagal World. That's pretty recent I think that came out this year and then, honestly, anything by Deb Dana. There's one she wrote called Anchored, and yeah, it's just. You read it and you're like, oh yeah, this makes sense, and then I want to read it again and then again, because it's a lot.
Speaker 1:New things, every time probably yeah.
Speaker 2:And then you get lost in the words of neuroception and ventral and dorsal and all the things, and then, once you start to really internalize it, you can take the understanding from out of your brain and into your body. But yeah, I mean, for me it's taken a lot of years to really and I'm still doing it. I'm taking a training right now. So the more I read about it, the more I talk about it, the more I teach it in groups, the more I go back and I'm like, oh actually I was wrong on that. Yeah, I need to, you know.
Speaker 1:Well, that's what's fun about something like this, being such a deep well is that you don't ever really get to the bottom. You just kind of keep learning and experiencing and applying it and all that stuff. Yeah, great job. Thank you for sharing with us.
Speaker 2:Thank you Cheers One final cheers.
Speaker 1:Do you want to hit your mic one last time before we close? Cheers to myself. Well, we appreciate you listening to this episode of the Valiant Living Podcast, and our hope is that it helped you feel educated, encouraged and even empowered on your journey towards peace and freedom. If we can serve you or your loved one in any way, we'd love to have a conversation with you. You can call 720-756-7941 or email admissions at valiantlivingcom. At Valiant Living, we treat the whole person so you not only survive, but you thrive in the life you deserve. And finally, if this episode has been helpful to you, it would mean a lot to us if you'd subscribe and even share it with your friends and family. You can also follow along with us on Instagram and Facebook by simply searching Valiant Living. Thanks again for listening and supporting the Valiant Living podcast. We'll see you next week.
