Valiant Living Podcast
Welcome to the Valiant Living Podcast where we educate, encourage, and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom.
Valiant Living has been restoring lives and families since 2017 by providing multiple levels of care for men and their families. Fully accredited by The Joint Commission, Valiant Living has earned a national reputation as a premier treatment program, offering IOP, PHP, and recovery housing programs for men ages 26 and older. Founder and CEO MIchael Dinneen is a nationally recognized therapeutic expert, speaker, and thought leader in the behavioral health field.
On this podcast you’ll hear from the Valiant team as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at (720)-756-7941 or email admissions@valiantliving.com We’d love to have a conversation with you!
Valiant Living Podcast
Rebuilding After Rehab: with Jill Gallegos, Director of Clinical & Family Services
Reintegrating back home after treatment isn't just about returning to familiar surroundings—it's about navigating the complexities of relationships, especially when co-parenting and communication with ex-partners are involved. Jill joins us on this episode of the Valiant Living podcast to share her invaluable expertise in guiding individuals and their families through these challenging transitions. As the lead clinical overseeing clinical and case management at Valiant Living, Jill offers strategies and insights that have not only been transformative for countless others but have also played a pivotal role in my own recovery journey.
Jill's evolving role at Valiant Living includes juggling responsibilities from housing support to individual therapy and facilitating support groups. She emphasizes the importance of a robust support system and following through with program recommendations to increase the chances of rebuilding relationships and sustaining recovery. Tune in to hear Jill’s candid advice, her experiences with co-parenting challenges, and why effective communication is key to a smoother reintegration process. Her impactful guidance has been a beacon of hope and transformation for many, and this episode is brimming with takeaways that could make a significant difference in your journey or that of someone you love.
Well, hey, everyone. Welcome to the Valiant Living podcast, where we educate, encourage and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom. I'm your host, drew Powell, and I'm a grateful alumni of the Valiant Living program. Valiant Living offers hope and transformational change to men and their families struggling with addiction and mental health challenges. So on this podcast you'll hear from the Valiant team, as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at 720-756-7941. Or you can email admissions at valiantlivingcom. We'd love to have a conversation with you, but for now let's dive into today's episode. We'd love to have a conversation with you, but for now let's dive into today's episode.
Speaker 2:Jill, welcome back. Thanks. Podcast times two. We had to get you a stationary chair, though.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I didn't rock. But I don't know this one kind of does it rocky.
Speaker 2:The first podcast.
Speaker 3:you were rocking back and forth, but you crushed it, so we want to have you back.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you you. I'm excited you are doing such amazing work with the guys here in the families that I wanted to specifically kind of hone in on this topic of reintegrating back home post-treatment, which for me and a lot of the guys I talked to is it could be a challenge, because it's almost like you guys get us to what I would call like the starting line, like rehab's, not the finish. You don't leave a finished product now. You have tools. Go use them in your life before jumping out. Tell us a little bit about your role here. It's changed since the last podcast that we did so.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it has changed it and it continues to change, right, it's evolving all the time. So I'm still lead clinical, but now I'm overseeing clinical and case management. I help with housing when I can, yeah, and I'm also still doing my CSAT role, so I'm helping a couple of guys go through this reintegration with co-parenting and so helping with some of that and that communication with their exes and how to communicate with them to try to get that co-parenting online. Also helping with disclosure right now, which is a good time. So it's a lot of work. Been there, yeah, so it's a lot of work.
Speaker 2:Been there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we're doing that as well. So I have a couple of individual clients that I'm seeing they're also seeing other therapists here and then I'm coming in as their CSAT, so I'm doing that, and then I'm still doing my partner's group, that support group, on Wednesday, and then I'm doing this like lead role as well, where I'm supporting my team and the staff and all of that, and then putting out all the fires that I can possibly help put out during the day, but I have the best team, so I'm super, super fortunate in that.
Speaker 3:I feel really blessed, right.
Speaker 2:So I love it here. We do have a great, we have an amazing team here and it's just fun to see the progression of our clinical team and everything.
Speaker 2:It's just fun to see the the progression of just our clinical team and everything else and just how well you guys work together and it's it's really fun yeah, it's a great team, it's fun well, you were very instrumental in in my life and my wife jamie, who you guys have become good friends and um, and just helping us know how to relate to one another in what was probably the darkest season of our life and our marriage. Um, but there was a lot of things that were really tough that you had to tell us. But I tell guys all the time whoever will listen, if you'll do what they tell you to do, it's going to give you a much better chance for you to save your marriage. Or you know and that can't always happen and maybe we'll talk about that at some point Like, people have the choice right and I, jamie, had that choice. She chose to do her own work and stay and whatever, but that wasn't my expectation. I didn't know that she was going to, I didn't assume she was going to.
Speaker 2:But for those that do want to stay and there's a choice you can make and there's work to be done but a lot of times it's tough. For instance, we cut. I was going to blame you. You made us not talk to one another for a long time. That was tough for me, but ultimately I think it was a thing that really helped us because, um and I'm talking a lot in the beginning I'm going to want, I want you to jump in here, but you told me. You said, andrew, you smoke people. Yep, you remember telling me that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think we talked about this some on the first episode and we'll link back to it. But just unpack that idea, Cause I've used that. I've quoted you a lot on that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, it's a real thing, right, like when we're feeling down right and we're like longing for like that validation that we need. We go to the people that we know are going to validate us, and that's the people that hurt us and they're feeling guilty because we're here too. So we're going to smoke our family to help us feel better, right, so we're just using them to make us feel better. So, reaching out to them and seeking that validation and like the last person they want to validate it is us, right, like they don't want to validate you. You, you being here has has created like this, this piece in the house that every wife that I talk to they they talk about it at some point, right Like you're, you talk about it at some point, right, like your being here, their husband, their significant other, their partner being here. It creates, like this, peace in the house that they haven't felt in such a long time. They can finally breathe, they're recognizing, like how exhausted they are and how they're finally able to like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exhale a little bit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like this whole weight has been lifted right and they can see the big picture. Yeah, and that's when they finally are able to like break down and be emotional. Yeah, and when they recognize yeah, maybe I don't want to talk to them. I've put so much of myself into this that I need a break too, so this is the safest time for that to happen. Right, these guys are in containment, they're safe, they're here. This is the best time for me to say like okay, perfect, your boundary is maybe you don't want to talk to them right now.
Speaker 3:This is a great time to do that. We can put some separation between you. Let's not have conversations right now, and it's it's the perfect time to allow us to do that.
Speaker 2:Well, yes, and the same was true with the kids and all that kind of stuff. And I remember one scenario too and I look back on it and I have to really like I have shame that comes up when I think about it, cause it's so gross when, in when I was here but even talking to my kids at one point, we were talking every night and I remember even you confronted me at one time because I was saying things to the kids that were trying to elicit a response of like you know I can't remember exactly who it was, but in a joking way I was like I bet you guys don't even miss me, I don't whatever, like looking for affirmation, whatever, and I remember you pulling me aside as having a conversation and talking about that. And then eventually we went to not talking to the kids every night, to once a week if they wanted to, and some weeks they didn't want to.
Speaker 3:Yeah, cause you're almost gaslighting them, right, you're almost gaslighting them into, like, making them feel bad, into telling you like, yeah, but I, but I do want you home and I do miss you, right, and at the same time, they can finally excel too, right? Yes, because they've been through all of this, right? Yes, and they're watching their mom suffer through this. Yeah, they're watching you suffer through this. They're suffering through this. They have to figure out, like, what their part is in this, right, and how they're supposed to function in all this as well. And it's hard for little people, right, and even for these teenagers, right, like they're trying to put all the pieces together as well to try to figure out how to support their other parent, how to support you, how to support their siblings. So that's why, when we talk about, like it being a system, right and I think that's part of what you have in here to talk about is the entire system is wounded. So, like, the entire system needs help, right. And so that's where I come in again and I figure out, like, is the entire system getting the support that it needs? Does everybody have a therapist back home? And if they don't, like, how can I help support that Right.
Speaker 3:So my goal is to help the significant other find a therapist, help the children find therapists. If they don't have one, I'll send out a ton of resources. And then we have our support groups. So we have a family support group on Wednesday that's led by Brooke Donahue, who's amazing from 5 to 630 every Wednesday. And then there's the support group that I lead for the betrayed partners, from 5 to 630 every Wednesday. Yeah, and those two groups are really great. And there's the support group that I lead for the betrayed partners from 5 to 6.30 every Wednesday, and those two groups are really great as well, and the families come together and the spouses come together and they really really lean on each other and then help lift each other up through really difficult times and I've seen really great friendships actually be made in the support group that I lead. So it's been really a wonderful situation in this in the support group that I lead.
Speaker 2:So it's it's been really a wonderful situation. I remember the um, an aha moment for me was when you told me listen when you talk to, when you're talking to them, they're trying to go about their lives as whatever normal. You always say the normals of setting on the washing machine it's doesn't really exist in our lives, but they're trying to move on and every time I talk to you it reminds them that life is not as it was and so let them kind of live and do their thing. And one thing I what I do appreciate about Valiant and what we do here is there is an emphasis on caring for the entire family, entire family system, like what you just said, and it does expose things like a lot of these betrayed partners have been living with an addict for sometimes decades, so they've been traumatized for not just a an event, but they've been traumatized by living with this person that shaped who they are and in some ways, like even with my wife, jamie and her working through her codependency well, even a lot of that was not her fault. That was what she had to become to deal and survive with living with an addict for all those years, and so she had to give herself the gift of while he's in a safe place. Like you said, I'm going to actually take some time and work on myself. Get my own therapist, which I would imagine.
Speaker 2:A lot of betrayed partners. Depending on your personality, that's either really difficult or really easy. Some people are like, listen, I'm glad to have this time. Some people are used to managing their partner for so long that it's hard for them, even when they're here, to let go and let the professionals do what the professionals do Right, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 3:And a lot of times, too, our betrayed spouses are like why do I need to have a therapist? Like I don't need it, I didn't do anything wrong, like I don't need help, I didn't do this Right. And so that's where I try to emphasize yeah, like you didn't do this and you've been hurt, so you owe it to yourself.
Speaker 2:But when you say that response though I mean that is, that response makes so much sense to me, like for, and I think that's why it's so beautiful and so rare. And again, I don't, I don't think. I think this is a choice you can make, because sometimes the betrayal is too deep or the wounding is too deep and you need to just walk away, and that's that's. I mean, would you say that's okay?
Speaker 3:I think it's real. Yeah, absolutely, and my goal is to make sure everyone's okay Right, and I think that you remember me saying this to you no matter what, everyone's going to be okay Right. I can't guarantee at the end of the day that the relationship's going to go back and it's going to be good. Yeah, right, my goal is to repair, to help you repair and mend. That's my goal.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:At the end of the day, I can't say that that's what's going to happen, but it is what I want. So I'm going to work my hardest to help you guys gain the tools together for her to do her work, for you to do your work, for the whole family system to do their work. So when we come together, we've all done work and we've had the tools given to us to be able to use, to come back and use them together to help you continue to do the process when you're back together at home. Right, because recovery it's not an event, right, it is a process. And a lot of times people come and they come to recovery, they come through a program like this, they come to rehab and they're like I'm done, that's it, I'm better. Right, that's not what it is, right, I can promise you, you have to continue doing it.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:It isn't over when you leave here, right. But when we're done and we think we're just better, that's when we get overconfident and things start falling apart, right. It's the same with the system, like it just can't stop. We have to continue doing it. We have to continue the work, right. We have to continue our check-ins. We have to continue our communications. We have to continue letting each other know like this doesn't feel right. Can you please let me know what's really happening, right? Whatever boundaries you set while you're in programming, whatever boundaries we set when we're having our communication together, when we're sitting down and she's telling you her boundaries and you're agreeing to those boundaries, and then you're telling her your boundaries and she's agreeing to those boundaries, and then you come up with your system and your events and what they're going to look like when you go back. If those aren't being abided by when you get back, then you have to talk about why what's happening?
Speaker 3:And then you're going to follow through with that with an outside therapist when you leave here, and I'm going to share that information with them. And they're going to follow through with that with an outside therapist when you leave here. Right, and I'm going to share that information with them and they're going to know what that looks like, so you guys are able to communicate that with them.
Speaker 2:So important as you move through. I mean, jamie and I just pulled ours back out a few weeks ago Because there was something. There was a confrontation that she had with me and she said, hey, I've got some fear coming up, like you're sticking to that plan. That you said and you know what. She was right. I had to go back and say, okay, I did commit to these things and I think you can have a conversation and change them as you go as you, as you, you know redraw the boundaries.
Speaker 2:But if you haven't had that conversation and my whole thing is about building trust and showing up and being honest and giving her, you know, all those different things that I I didn't do for 20 years it's so important for me to do and some of them are really small things. They seem like small things but they're really big to her right if I keep doing those things. So what are some of the? Because this is already so amazing, this conversation is so helpful, and I do remember you saying that you're going to be okay.
Speaker 2:I didn't believe you at the time, but I thought about it a lot. The other thing you said that gave me tons of hope and I'll try to say, without being emotional, because it gave me so much hope and I've this is, this has come true for me, where you said it'll never be the same, but it could be better. Yeah, and that like has been so true for Jamie and I and our family. It's not the same. We're not the same people. We've gone through a traumatic season, traumatic thing, but we would both say it's better.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the relationship that you had is over, right, yes, so whatever you had before, you can scratch that. That's like null and void. You're not that person anymore and she's not that person anymore. And your kids, they've grown through all this too, Right. So we've all grown through all this. We've all learned new things about ourselves. We've all learned what we don't want and what we want, right. And the best part of this is like you get to relearn each other and you get to like, redate your wife, right. That's like the neatest part, yes. And she gets to learn who you are in your recovery and who you are sober, right. And you get to learn who she is in, like this raw, this raw, emotional, honest person who's able to tell you exactly how she's feeling when she's been shut down, right. You haven't got to know this person, how she's feeling when she's been shut down, right. You haven't got to know this person because she's been so emotional that it's come out sideways right.
Speaker 3:And now it's coming out as this open, honest, fearful conversation that you can actually listen to and hear, and before you wouldn't be able to hear that. And when you weren't able to hear that, then of course it would come out differently anger, yelling. It's funny because I talk about this a lot, right, we always, when we're in our active addiction and when we very first come into recovery, when we come into programming, we talk about how our spouses are to blame, and I always hear the guys talk about this like our it's her fault, that I'm like this, like she made me this way, like I did these things because of her, um, and and I'm like, okay, yeah, no, that totally makes sense, like I get it. And so I let y'all like settle down a little bit and then I call it the, I call it the resentment mirror, right, and I ask everybody when they're here a few weeks and like so that resentment mirror, like how it's her fault, right, if you're gonna look in that resentment mirror and you're gonna like fact check and break things down, right, when she became so upset, when she was telling you over and over and over again the things that she was upset about, the things she was fearful about the things she didn't trust you, about the things she had questions about, and you kept telling her no, no, no, no, this isn't happening, this isn't happening, this isn't happening.
Speaker 3:And all those times they were lies, or maybe you like fessed up, you confessed, but it'll never happen again, it'll never happen again, it'll never happen again. And then what did it happen? Again, and then again, and then again. So that lying over and over and over again created her to like shut down. And as she shut down, she turned away. And then, when you wanted that attention, she wouldn't give it to you, so that gave you the perfect excuse to like act out or drink more or use more or do whatever you were doing Right, whether it's gambling, whatever it is Whatever the escape was.
Speaker 2:yeah.
Speaker 3:Whatever your escape is, it gave you the perfect reason. It gave you the perfect escape to go off and do that right, because now she's not paying attention. She's letting me do this, yeah, but she tried for so long that finally she turned away right, and now it's her fault fault. But if you look in the mirror and you're able to like, break all that down, the reflection in the mirror is you. It's all coming back to you her, her, like her, like, resentment of you is a reflection of you and your resentment of her is a reflection of you.
Speaker 2:wow because Because.
Speaker 3:I can guarantee that she tried Right. She tried a lot.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And then women become crazy after we've tried so many times and finally we're like yeah, I don't yell until I've asked a million times, and then I get angry, then I get heated, then I yell.
Speaker 2:Well, isn't that a big part of it too? For a lot of these women, it's validating that they weren't crazy Like their hunches and their suspicions and all the things, and a lot of us guys who just would gas, gaslight them and oh no, that's not what's happening or whatever it made them feel like they were losing their mind.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I call them their aha moments and we talk about that, like what was your aha moment? And all of them were like, oh my gosh, it was like forever ago and I had my aha moment and it looked like this. And as soon as they told me and I knew it, and they, when we do disclosure, and they're like, ah, I knew it, I knew it. Like that's when I knew this was happening.
Speaker 3:It totally matches up with my timeline Like the puzzle, just like it falls into place, right, and it helps so much where they're like yeah, I wasn't nuts, like everything I knew I was, like I wasn't out of my mind. Yeah, and so it's, it's helpful. Yeah, I always call that like disclosure. It's always so funny. I always call like the disclosure piece for like the beginning, like the very first part of full disclosure. That piece is for the man, right, it helps him feel better. Or like the I guess not the man here it is for the, for the man but like um, it's for the, the perpetrator.
Speaker 3:Um, because when he does the full disclosure it's like he feels better after, because he throws up on his wife and you know like when you're not feeling well and then you throw up how you feel better after finally get it all out right and then you're like oh yeah, now I can, I can move around and I feel better again.
Speaker 3:But then she feels terrible because now she's like covered in vomit so and then she has to work through that and then when she gets to write her impact, then it's the same, then it like passes back right, and then when amends comes, that's when everything can start working back together which, by the way, we should do a whole episode on disclosure, because it actually brings some comfort to know that there is a very um, clear and intentional process that needs to be worked very specifically and not to.
Speaker 2:you know, and I know, when I was here, I was given a book. We worked through it, like, like it was like do this. There's tons of science and statistics about it. So just for people who are hearing this idea of disclosure, that are listening or watching and like what is that? Whatever? We should unpack that more. But I will, I'll just say this and we'll move on and you can comment Please do it with a CSAT or a trained professional, don't do it on your own.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, you need like a CSAT or a CPTT or an ABSAT, like somebody who knows how to do it.
Speaker 2:That will guide you through.
Speaker 3:So you're not doing partial and all this other stuff, that actually turns out way worse. Yeah, you don't want staggered disclosure. That's a mess. No one wants that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it turns into a mess, which we won't talk about it. But I did fail my lie detector test the first time.
Speaker 3:Oh, my gosh, I had the guy I'm working with right now. I was like, please find Drew and ask him about how he failed Pauly, but just ask him the story.
Speaker 2:It's my great favorite.
Speaker 3:He's like I'm not going to lead the conversation with that. I was like I will Let me help you.
Speaker 2:I did pass the second, but uh, it's well. Anyways, I don't want to get off on that, but that was wild, so I haven't even looked at our questions I'm going to talk about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm just like going off on a team it's incredible.
Speaker 2:No, what you're saying is really good, um, but I do want to talk about what are. What are some of the okay here's. Let's go here. What are? What are some of the challenges that men face when they first return home? What are some common ones that you hear?
Speaker 3:Like trust yeah, that's impossible. Like it's going to come back. It's really slow, like you have to recognize. It's slow. Um, the reason that it's going to be so slow is exactly what I said. Right, it's to be honest, it is the event. Right, it's what you did. Um, that's going to be real. That's going to be real and it's based on what you did. For some of us, it's more like the act of what we did, and for some of us, it's the act of what we did on top of the biggest part, and that's what I'm going to cover right now. But it's the lie and it's not just like you lied. It's that you lied over and over and over again. So it's the part of this where you said that you would stop, and then you didn't. Or you said that it wouldn't happen again, and then you did again.
Speaker 2:Or you were really good at lying and it was this whole blow up of I don't even know who I'm, I don't even know who this person is, I didn't see any of it coming, or, which is probably more rare. But yeah, they're having to come to terms with I don't know. I don't know this person at all it's.
Speaker 3:It's like, it's the secrets, it's the lies, it's the yeah. It's the finding out that it's. It's the finding out you've been lied to, right. It's the finding out that you that here. You thought this whole time that you were like happy and living this wonderful life and everything was not real, right, right. Or it's the fact that somebody continues to like, not be truthful and they keep telling you they're going to get better and then they don't, or they're going to change and they don't. It's the combination of all of those things.
Speaker 2:So what would you say to the person who is asking that question? Because I will. I'll be honest and say I've wrestled with that some too of like what was real from before. Right, because even in my own processing, my own shame, it's like was it? Was it all BS? Was I a total fraud? Was I whatever? But then I looked back and I was like no, there was some really moments of I was as sincere as I knew how to be at that time, you know. So help us understand. Or how do we wrestle with that, not just for the betrayed partner, but also for the person who's wrestling with? I don't know if I'm the real deal at all.
Speaker 3:Well, regardless of your addiction, we lose ourself in it, right? So you really don't know who you are Like. You lost yourself in your addiction a while ago, and when you lose yourself in your addiction, your spouse loses you in your addiction, right? So not only did you lose yourself, they lost you. So we really don't know who we are. No-transcript, it's going to be like the phone. The phone's going to be a big huge deal. It doesn't matter what it is.
Speaker 3:Like if it's, if, if you're looking at some kind of intimacy disorder, if you're looking at gambling, um, something along those lines, the phone is going to be. That's going to be huge, that's going to be a trigger for your wife. The phone is going to have to be like, up at all times, right, and it should never be locked, like there should be full access. If you're an alcoholic, like, be prepared, the hug and sniff is a real deal, right, like those things are real. So we always come with like these extra accountability measures for all of you that we want you to carry with you when you leave here. So we have backtrack, which is like the monitoring, the BA monitoring, for when you leave here, for anybody that has substance use, like alcohol. There's always UAs, too, to help check and monitor. There's always like custustodio or Covenant Eyes.
Speaker 2:I kept that on my phone until JR finally kicked me off. He was like, dude, you got to get off our plan. I was scared and then finally I literally sat down with Jamie and was like, hey, can we quick swap it? I don't want to have one moment with this phone in my hand without this Custodio on it or software like it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But it's. I will say this PSA for, especially for the men that are listening if you're a intimacy disorder, sex addict, anything of any kind, and you don't have accountability software on your phone, you're lying to yourself.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Why would you not Like? Every guy should have it on their phone, and don't you think?
Speaker 3:I think so too. Same with gambling.
Speaker 2:Right. That's huge Just block yourself from being able to do it.
Speaker 3:Right. Block yourself from any kind of app or any kind of like social media. Anything that's going to get you in trouble.
Speaker 1:Right, you don't need that.
Speaker 3:It's like having your backtrack in your pocket if you're an alcoholic. It's like a security blanket in your pocket, right, you definitely need it, so why would you not want that with you?
Speaker 2:so why is it so triggering for us guys? So we come out of. We come out of 30, 60, 90 days, sometimes a lot longer, and we're committed to living open and honest. But I remember when, like, for instance, with jamie, would go through my phone, I was so activated but I knew there was. She was gonna find it like I knew I was being honest, all those things, but it was still like something in my ego or my I don't know.
Speaker 3:So how do we, as it's, still that whole like you don't trust me, you still need to go through my phone, or it's. It's still maybe like that, that fear, that little boy in you. Maybe it's still that part of you, like that part of you that is worried that you're not being trusted, yeah, or that part of you that something could be found, even though you know it's not.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:We still have that inner child in us that's always so fearful, right? Yeah, that's still trying to like take control of the bus, right? So all those different parts of us, they show up at different times, right, like we, we want to be trusted, we want to be, you know, like we want to be, like able to like have somebody trust us without going through our stuff, right?
Speaker 2:especially. I wanted her to. I was fine with her doing it. I just didn't want to be there. I wanted to be like can you just do it when I don't know you're doing it? There was something about like at first, you know, now it's not, I don't care, right? You?
Speaker 3:oh, you're just going to monitor me in front of me and, honestly, like she shouldn't have been doing it Right, Like. But I think that at that point, like we had agreed that she could cause I think he'd been out for a while. But, like this spouse, your or your significant other is never your monitor. I never want them to be your warrant Right Cause, like that's like taints a relationship even more right like you should have somebody else doing that, so they shouldn't control your backtrack, they shouldn't control your custodial or your phone if they want to look through your phone, wholeheartedly, absolutely right hand it over yeah, hand it right over, and if there's a fight, like immediately, that's like every red flag that could go up yes, in them.
Speaker 3:They're like why, why not? If you start getting defensive immediately, they're gonna get defensive right and and if they tell you, can you please blow on your backtrack? I'm feeling kind of worried. You should pull that thing out and blow on it immediately. And I know that hurts our male ego too. Yep, and that's kind of where we put ourselves right. How badly do we want this? Yeah, and is it worth the argument, or is it worth the marriage? That's a great point.
Speaker 2:That is a great point. There's so many times. You just said something that reminded me of something you said to me before, because there was a weekend I was supposed to get my phone back, which it sounds like we're so childish, so childish, like we give our phone up. I think I went on a digital detox for I don't remember 30 or 45 days, something like that. I was supposed to get my phone back and jamie was uncomfortable with me getting my phone back and you guys said, hey, we're not going to give it to you quite yet, but you said that. You said, hey, if you're not getting your phone back for a few more days helps build trust, and it's what jamie needs to see from you to help you, you know, restore this relationship or gain ground. Then something hit me when you said I was like well then, of course, like, if that's what you know, if that's what we need and I think a lot of us guys need to hear that that we go to these.
Speaker 2:This treatment thing in 90 days is a blip on the radar, but when you're in it it feels like 90 years, right, like I look back on my 90 days here and I'm like my gosh, that went by so fast.
Speaker 2:But we leave treatment and we're like, okay, we've been in bootcamp for 90 days. You go back home and, hey, I'm a different guy, I'm changed, which could be very true. But your family and your people that you're going back to, they haven't been in a 90-day treatment facility, they haven't been doing work. At the same rate, they're still traumatized and dealing with the broken pieces of what you left behind and all this different stuff traumatized and dealing with the broken pieces of what you left behind and all this different stuff. So for for us guys um and I'm just using men, cause that's probably really what we deal with here, but I would imagine it it could work both ways what are some practical steps and help and tips when it comes to us coming home and us being kind of like ta-da, here I am, but our families are not there yet, right?
Speaker 3:You're not going to get a parade Like number one. You're not getting a parade.
Speaker 2:You're not going to put welcome banners and you're not. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Don't expect that. Nobody's going to give you a parade.
Speaker 2:Well you even told me. You said, hey, you're probably not going to go home at the end of 90 days.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I, I didn't. I think you were here just a little bit longer.
Speaker 2:Well, even you just meant, when you go back to Nashville, you may go to another.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you might not right, Like a lot of times, like I'm going to urge you to maybe go to a sober living, or I'm going to urge you to not rush back into your bed, right, like it's going to be up to your significant other too, Like I need to make sure that they feel safe when you get back. So we need to listen to everybody. Again, it's the system. So does she want you home right away? Maybe not, and what is she needing?
Speaker 3:So is it going to look like you're going to a sober living? Is it going to look like, yeah, you can move back home, but you're not going into the bedroom. You have to go to a different bedroom? Is it going to look like you're going to be living in the basement for a little bit, possibly, and then you'll start working with another therapist to help you get back upstairs. That's okay, you're home, that's great, and we'll start working on the steps with other people. I'm going to help set all that up for you to get where you need to be. Also, the changes that you have made and how you are presenting are scary, so you look different when you leave here. That's real, it is presentable, it is seen, it is recognized and it's scary.
Speaker 2:And it takes time for them to even trust that. Is it real Right?
Speaker 3:It's too good to be true. When you're speaking, the way you're speaking, and that therapy's coming through, that's not you right? So they don't know who you are and that's kind of frightening to them. So you have to give them that grace to recognize that now you look like a bullshitter who used to bullshit everything, and now you just look like an intelligent therapeutic bullshitter, an informed one, right Like yeah. And now that's really scary to them, right? So it's all about again that building, that trust, and you have to take it really really slow.
Speaker 2:So melissa's peeking in the window. Oh my gosh melissa, you can come in join the conversation. She just wants, she's giving us the time she's hungry, she wants to go to dinner I know she we're having a great conversation. Well, you have to listen to the podcast when it comes out. Our wellness director, melissa, just walked in the room. Um, you can listen in. Come on in. This will be helpful for you. It's ridiculous, okay. So how long after you get home is the betrayed partner in the driver's seat?
Speaker 2:Forever, Jill, that's not what I wanted to hear.
Speaker 3:I know it probably isn't. I mean, really, it's up to y'all, right, like it's going to take some time. You kind of have to, you're, you're kind of at their mercy, right, and as hard as that is, again you're going to have to put down. You have to put down your pride, right, and you're going to have to. You're going to have to let them run, run the ship for a little while and pretty soon when, when you start showing up and they see that you're not bullshitting- yeah then maybe they'll give you a couple more things to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and when you're actually following through and all of those tasks that you started before you came here, that you said that you were going to do, that you didn't do because you know that you all had those right and those things are getting done, they gain that trust and it starts raising and it starts raising, and it starts raising. Then it starts, it starts balancing out and things can get more equal, but it's going to take a while and I don't know, how long it takes right, it's gonna. It's everybody's unique and everybody's different.
Speaker 2:Every couple is going to be different well, it's all about helping them feel safe again. They have to feel safe. I just remember you gave me some very specific. I probably sound like a robot early on, but it was really meaningful for Jamie, but when she would get triggered which happens right and there's never a warning. It's not like hey, by the way, tomorrow at this time, I'm planning on getting triggered, and so right, I don't know what we're going to do.
Speaker 3:We could drive by something and it could be completely unrelated. The wind could blow a certain way. It's going to be a song on the radio. It's going to be a street name. It's going to be a restaurant we drive by. It could be anything.
Speaker 2:Right, right yeah, so I was never prepared for it. So I had to have language. Say this when she gets triggered, only say this. Don't say more, don't argue, just listen and take it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Just take the brunt of whatever, and I remember my the go-to line that you gave me was something like it makes a lot of sense to me that you would feel that way, and then usually by the end I would think, hey, thank you for sharing that with me, and what can I do to help you feel safe?
Speaker 3:Exactly Never. Thank you for sharing that with me and what can I do to help you feel safe? Exactly, never, I'm sorry. Yeah, you are not allowed to apologize because that doesn't mean anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, who cares?
Speaker 2:yep, it doesn't mean you were sorry before right and it never mattered before, right yeah it makes a lot of sense to me that you would, that you would feel that way exactly, yep I just say that all the time and and you would tell me like whenever we'd check in or I was, I was doing visits back home, it was she was in the driver's seat wherever she wants you to stay, wherever she wants you to sleep.
Speaker 2:I remember the first time she wanted me at home, it was touch and go, but like I had a friend that had a bed ready for me, cause it was like I don't know if I'm coming over, you know it was like so that was so important. Is there a I don't know how to ask this question Is there a point where the couple need to look at each other and say, hey, we've been in this for a long time, we're not making progress? And is there a point where you just have to let go and say you know what I'm getting at? Like even for a person who is not the betrayed partner, but who is the person who's caused the trauma? At what point do you say, hey, listen, I'm showing up, I'm doing the things. We're not making progress.
Speaker 3:When do you throw in the towel? I mean, I think that's a statement that I think I've said to everyone, and I ask them, like you have to ask yourself to what end? And the to what end statement is that question that we have to ask ourselves and that we have to always carry in our back pocket and we have to not focus on it, because what we really want to focus on is the repair. And then, through the work of the repair, if we see that it's stagnant and we're not getting anywhere, then we can ask ourself again to what end? Right, like, if it's not getting better and we're really trying and everybody's doing their work, or if only one of us is actually doing our work right and the other one's not, to what end? Right, and that's something that I tell each one of you right to what end? That you have to ask that, and then it's, it's up to you guys, right, like my.
Speaker 3:My main goal is to to help support whatever it is that you guys decide to do. Right, I Right, I don't want anybody to be unhappy and I don't want anybody to not have this come back together. That would be my main goal, but sometimes it doesn't so therapeutically. If we see that it isn't going to work, then my goal would be to help you therapeutically and to safely separate in a way that is good, right, without argument, without fighting.
Speaker 2:Well, and one thing you guys always encourage us with here is we're doing this for ourselves.
Speaker 2:We're getting sober for us and I know that you can have motivations that get you to that point I would say my first. I don't even know how long it was all about winning my family back. I'll do whatever I got to do to get my family back, until you get to a place where like, okay, regardless of what happens there, this is still the way I want to show up in life. This is still the way I want to show up in life.
Speaker 2:This is still the way I want to live. I'm not doing this for anybody else. It took me a long time to get there and, honestly, some days I'm still not there. Always it's like okay, I need to show up for my family, but it's also this is the way I want to show up. So I think that probably plays into what you're saying too. It's like you almost have to flip that mentality of like I'm not doing this for other people. I'm doing this because this is the and I would tell Jamie that from time to time like, hey, I'm not doing this, so, just so you could feel safe, I'm also doing this because this is the person I want to be moving forward.
Speaker 3:Well, if you don't get better for you, you, you can't be better for her right.
Speaker 3:Like you're. You're doing this for you. Like, if you don't feel safe with yourself, if you don't believe in yourself or trust yourself, then you can never be or do those things for anybody else, right? So you are doing this for you first. Once you can reach those goals for yourself, then you can do it for other people, and not just for your partner, but for your children too. So unless you can be that person for yourself, you can't be it for anybody else. So that's why I'm saying, like you're doing this work for you, that's why I know everybody's going to be okay. Because once you're well, once you're getting healthy, once you're doing better, and we can see that, that's when I know everybody's going to be okay. When I see that in you, then I know everyone's going to be okay.
Speaker 2:Sometimes, when I see that in you, then I know everyone's going to be okay, cause sometimes it just takes someone going first, someone I I heard Deneen say that one time to a friend of mine that was here. It was like, listen, yeah, I know your spouse may have issues too, but she needs to see you going first, you getting healthy first, and then that's going to. It's going to. You know it's a on effect. People are going to follow suit. This has been amazing. I feel like we just didn't even get around to all the questions. We'll have to do another one, part two, anything from Melissa from the Peanut Gallery over here. Excellent work, she says. I just pinch myself that I get to do this with you guys. Jamie and I were talking. It's like I'm flying here. The story that God writes in our lives is so much better than what we were. I would never in a million years imagine that I would go to rehab and then be able to come back to partner with you guys and do all this.
Speaker 3:I thought she was going to come out here.
Speaker 2:Better than I had ever imagined.
Speaker 3:We're glad that you're a part of this.
Speaker 2:We talked about women's programming, kind of started.
Speaker 3:I just said that there's their group and that they're an amazing group of ladies and that they support each other and it's beautiful. And Melissa comes in. She's going to start coming in once a month and she's going to start doing you need more stuff on your plate.
Speaker 2:I was thinking that.
Speaker 3:I was thinking the same thing.
Speaker 2:Right, what does she even do? Nothing, she does about as much as I do.
Speaker 3:So basically, nothing.
Speaker 2:You guys are amazing, all right. No, I love working with that group of people. It's really special.
Speaker 3:And it's just great to support them, to remind them how important self-care, self-love and acceptance of self is. While their spouses are either in the program right yeah, or even after right, especially after Right, because I have these ladies that have been around.
Speaker 2:That's what you instill in them every week, is that sense of self. It's a beautiful community. Well, and I would say from personal, personal experience, because our pattern for 20 years was I'm the center of the universe, everything revolves around me. I don't want to be that anymore, but that is my default, like even in recovery, that is still could be my recovery and everything else, and it's like no, wait a minute. We're trying to be partners in this, which means I have to continue to work towards humility, and all the schemas of entitlement, all the stuff that I have still rises up, and so our partners need that ongoing care, because it's what we want to do with alumni. A lot of the programming we're doing is resetting and saying okay, your default is going to go back to these patterns if you don't continue to work this yeah, they program reset, restore, renew, replenish, re recycle, recycle.
Speaker 2:Just kidding, I was gonna say regurgitate, but that was um, we do have an alumni retreat coming up this fall that we're really excited about it. So if you're listening to this still, if you still haven't left us yet, that's going to be exciting October.
Speaker 3:We need to do a ladies retreat.
Speaker 2:Ladies, retreat 2025. You heard it here first, breaking news. Now you're. Well, this is kind of the retreat. Oh, that was tough for me. Retreat, queen, is what I was going to say. Jailer's final word, final word for our men and our spouses who are working towards restoration. What would you say?
Speaker 3:I mean, it's a it's. It's a tough road and it is definitely a process, but if you're willing to put in the work and you're willing to be patient with one another, it's definitely something that we can do. So you have to want it too. Definitely have to want it, yeah, so it's and it's worth it. It's definitely worth it. If this is your person, right Like, it's definitely worth it. It's worth it, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, we appreciate you listening to this episode of the Valiant Living Podcast and our hope is that it helped you feel educated, encouraged and even empowered on your journey towards peace and freedom. If we can serve you or your loved one in any way, we'd love to have a conversation with you. You can call 720-756-7941 or email admissions at valiantlivingcom. At Valiant Living, we treat the whole person so you not only survive, but you thrive in the life you deserve. And finally, if this episode has been helpful to you, it would mean a lot to us if you'd subscribe and even share it with your friends and family. You can also follow along with us on Instagram and Facebook by simply searching Valiant Living. Thanks again for listening and supporting the Valiant Living podcast. We'll see you next week.
