Valiant Living Podcast
Welcome to the Valiant Living Podcast where we educate, encourage, and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom.
Valiant Living has been restoring lives and families since 2017 by providing multiple levels of care for men and their families. Fully accredited by The Joint Commission, Valiant Living has earned a national reputation as a premier treatment program, offering IOP, PHP, and recovery housing programs for men ages 26 and older. Founder and CEO MIchael Dinneen is a nationally recognized therapeutic expert, speaker, and thought leader in the behavioral health field.
On this podcast you’ll hear from the Valiant team as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at (720)-756-7941 or email admissions@valiantliving.com We’d love to have a conversation with you!
Valiant Living Podcast
Valiant Victories LIVE!!: Jonathan's Emotional Journey from Addiction to Inner Transformation
Ever wondered how true brotherhood can be the bedrock of recovery? In this powerful episode of the Valiant Living Podcast, Drew Powell sits down with alumni Jonathan to explore the emotional highs and lows of addiction recovery. From the first, nerve-wracking day at the PHP house to the unexpected camaraderie that blossomed, Jonathan recounts his path from skepticism and anxiety to profound internal transformation. We delve into the raw, unfiltered emotions experienced during early recovery days, emphasizing the critical role of continuous support and the challenging journey towards self-discovery.
Curious about the pivotal moments that can shape a person's journey out of addiction? Listen as Jonathan opens up about the intense vulnerabilities and struggles he faced, including confronting intimacy disorders and dealing with the awkwardness of forging genuine connections. Hear about the importance of family support and how love and communal guidance were integral to maintaining sobriety. These candid stories, woven with moments of humor and camaraderie, provide a heartfelt look into the complexities of addiction and the enduring power of community.
What does life look like after 20 months of sobriety? Drew and Jonathan reflect on the ups and downs post-recovery, highlighting that the road to sobriety is far from a smooth ride but filled with incredible moments of growth and gratitude. They share practical advice for those at the beginning of their recovery journey, stressing the importance of vulnerability, faith, and the continuous effort required to stay clean and sane. Tune in to hear about transformative experiences, such as a memorable hike in El Dorado Canyon and the humorous reality of balancing spirituality with everyday life, all underscoring the ongoing journey towards healing and self-improvement.
Well, hey everyone, welcome to the Valiant Living podcast, where we educate, encourage and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom. I'm your host, drew Powell, and I'm a grateful alumni of the Valiant Living program. Valiant Living offers hope and transformational change to men and their families struggling with addiction and mental health challenges. So on this podcast you'll hear from the Valiant team as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at 720-756-7941. Or you can email admissions at valiantlivingcom. We'd love to have a conversation with you, but for now let's dive into today's episode. This is really fun and thanks to the alumni guys that showed up and come out and got a lot of exciting plans for alumni coming up. We can't wait to share about kind of getting that brotherhood and for guys that are still in program, just so you know like for us a lot of the vision for alumni that Pete carries and Deneen and everything is, it's really like it or not. It's a brotherhood that we share together and so when you're in valiant, when you come to valiant living, it's not just a 30, 45, 90 day however long you're here, some a lot longer than that. Um, it's really a it's a lifetime brotherhood that you're in, and so we want to continue to reinforce that and and help each other stay sober and and live healthy and free and all that stuff. And so, um, give it up for jonathan.
Speaker 1:This is a yeah like, so you don't have to be quiet during this. You can chime in. Actually, at some point, we might even ask for questions. You can ask a question, or jonathan or whatever, if you want. Uh, we'll probably go 30 minutes or so, but don't feel like you got. It's got to be stuffy and weird, but we're just going to have a conversation. You guys listen in on it and then, um, and some of you what I love about this is some of you live this with him, so you can call bullshit on any of his answers because you were in the thick of it.
Speaker 2:So I was saying we should flip it and just do a roast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it may turn into that for sure.
Speaker 2:Um, jonathan, thanks for being on the podcast, man thanks for having me this is you, look nervous I'm very well, I'm nervous, I think maybe more. Just, I mean, there's a lot of things going on, you know. I mean it's amazing, it's just great to see you, it's great to like it's crazy. Man, I'm already about to like cry. You know what I'm saying, but maybe I should get out now, you know. But it's just like beautiful to um, yeah, it's beautiful to be here. So for people, listening or watching.
Speaker 1:right now we're we're recording this live from Foxfield, which is the PHP house, where, um, all of us guys start our program at Valiant Inn, and so it's special. Well, how does it feel for you being here in Foxfield right now? Special is a good word definitely it's a lot.
Speaker 2:I mean, we were already talking earlier over there, but you said it already it's. It's just a reminder. You know from where I came from and I forget every day, which is why I need a daily program, and so coming back is it's like a really beautiful reminder, though more than just the typical one.
Speaker 1:Is there some PTSD involvedd involved?
Speaker 2:I think I mean there's all like I literally walked back in here and saw, saw all these familiar faces and then, um, yeah, I mean there's a little bit of that, a little bit, I'm allowed to leave when I want, right?
Speaker 1:yeah, I'm allowed to leave.
Speaker 2:Yes, my car's out there, but it doesn't have bald tires this time dude, you left that car sitting out there for so long yeah. I had a car sitting, my Honda Pilot sitting out there the entire time.
Speaker 1:I was shocked to not see it when I pulled in tonight.
Speaker 2:honestly, yeah, yeah, With no tags. It got towed because there were no tags on it and it didn't. It had bald tires and it just sat there collecting dust for three months.
Speaker 1:Well, for a lot of us in the program, the first week or two of being here and being in this house is extremely formative, but in some ways it's. It's some of the um dare I say, like some of the worst moments of our life are in this play when it comes to like feeling anxiety, feeling pain, shame, all the things that we're feeling. Even at least for me, and you can speak to this when I came to Foxfield, I was still in that mindset of like what am I doing here with these people? I'm looking around the room and I'm like I don't belong here. I'm looking over I'm not out, tay over here.
Speaker 1:But I remember Tay's first day too, and I think we all shared that common experience Like how did I get here? What am I doing here with these guys? I don't belong here. My entitlement and pride and ego was I'm not like these guys. These guys are really messed up. By the end of the program I'm like I'm the worst guy in this whole program. I finally get to the point of seeing, but not at first, right, what was that like for you when you came in?
Speaker 2:and don't bs, because I know what it was like, I've experienced it, so I want you to be honest, yeah I mean, I, I could go on and on about any moment, depending on how much I zoom into it, but I, speaking of the ptsd, um, but like my first memory walking back in here was, yeah, my first day walking in, when I actually came to treatment, you, you know, and it was someone's birthday and I didn't know anyone here and what you just said, I mean I was just, I thought I was above it. Uh, and you know, I'll say this, as the judgmental side of me in retrospect said I'm not going to hang out. These losers, man, like what?
Speaker 2:you know, I'm way above them, I'm smarter than them. Like they got problems. I don't got problems or whatever. You know, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna walk in, I'm gonna get some food in my belly, cause I didn't have enough money to buy my own food, um, and I was fortunate enough to have someone uh, my family pay for my treatment. But I'm going to come in here and get some food in my belly for a month, you know, kind of just chill out and go back out there and just I got this I remember you didn't have much clothes either no, well, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, backing up even to, I guess you know, d-day or wherever you want to call it, when I, the day I decided to go to treatment, I did come in with literally just one shirt and one pair of joggers, one pair of socks, um, and one pair of shoes yeah and then a vape cartridge in my wallet, you know.
Speaker 2:But because I made the decision on the spot to go to treatment. I was talking to Deneen in the office. We talked for about 45 minutes and I never really sat down and talked to another addict and at the time I didn't even know what that meant, but I was like this guy's making sense to me, you know, at the time I didn't even know what that meant, but I was like this guy's making sense to me, you know. And uh, so I'm sitting there spinning out, um, coming off of some stuff it doesn't matter the DOC but I, uh, and so he kind of finished talking and he sat there and he asked me. He said, well, what do you do? You want to do it? And I said yeah, and he said he said, well, you want to go right now? And then I paused and I was like, well, I got to go get some stuff done. I got to go do this. I got to tie this loose end, right, I got to go pack.
Speaker 2:And like halfway I think, if I'm remembering correctly, he didn't even say a word and about two, three sentences into that behavior. I got to tie this loose end, got to do that. I just paused and I said, and in my mind I realized I'm going to go back out there and get high and I could die, you know, because that's why I was in there. I was like I'm going to die if I don't do this. So right there, in that moment, was the first time I I don't know how to say it at least witnessed my thought process as a disease of addiction. I couldn't label it at the time, but that was the first time I caught myself and I said wait a second, dude, you're thinking. You've been doing this thinking for years.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And there was a painful but liberating moment of realization when I said you know what? Actually, I don't need to tie those loose ends.
Speaker 1:Let's just go right now, let's just go for it, and then we went to detox. It's so wild having a conversation with you right now because if the people that knew you then and the people that know you now, you are so different. I don't know if anybody who remembers him from before, but like jill's laughing in the background, a lot of laughter.
Speaker 1:You are like a crazed animal, you know, and like you have this like restful, non-anxious presence. Now, when you're talking in a joy about you, that was not the dude I I knew. As a matter of fact, tell them about your first alumni meeting okay, yeah, well, even funny enough this was not the way to enter php, by the way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I should write it like a how and how to not go to rehab? Yeah, they have a whole manual what not to do with your faces on the front of it yeah, I'm like shrugging yeah yeah, um well, when you said tell us about like even that moment, I'm like I thought of 20 different things that I just messed up just royally.
Speaker 1:But yeah, which we all did. By the way, you're not alone in that, yeah no for sure, um, um.
Speaker 2:But yeah, first day of alumni was my first day in there, so kind of connecting that to like walked into here, um, and I I'm gonna back up from the alumni, like three hours prior to my first time entering the php house, um, because it has a similar theme to it and um, so I show up here, I'm judging everybody. They're all a bunch of losers. They don't know what they're talking about. Um, I could judge them for anything and I just like jokingly have this thing where I'm just like judging someone for wearing blue jeans or whatever, and it's like you know, it just didn't matter and uh, so everyone's hanging out. I go outside and make a couple of calls, come back in and Dan Meyer, uh, who works here?
Speaker 1:I think it might've been actually happens to be in our live audience it happens to be in our live audience today.
Speaker 2:Happens to be in our live audience, yeah, and he already knows what I'm about to say, so he's already laughing, but I think it was like his first day or something which may not matter, but I just remember like I need to even just like take a second to think about kind of what happened, kind of how I talked about a second ago, with catching my thought process. A very similar thing happened in a much, much more terrifying way in that moment where, now that I didn't have the drugs, I didn't have my phone, I wasn't able to escape. I was being just like thrown to the wolves. It felt um, even though in retrospect it was where I needed to be, but in that moment I was just, I didn't know where else to go.
Speaker 2:So in my head I just, for some reason, the disease, my thought process, whatever you want to call it set its sights directly on dan, with all of its ammo and guns pointed all at him, and I was just just lucky Dan and um, sorry, by the way, dan, um, but no, but I and, and I just remember I was just judging him and hating Dan for some reason and and, like I said, I caught myself and, um, I caught this hatred, this judgment, this like feeling of separation, this it was so many things, but it was evil and it was deceitful. It was deceitful because I thought it was real. I thought it was reality but it wasn't. It was just maladaptive, unnecessary, all in my head and body. Hate at this person outside in the real world.
Speaker 2:Necessary all in my head and body hate at this person outside in the real world and it was, yeah, it was very scary. But kind of moving into that, I caught myself and I walked up to Dan. He was having a conversation. I said, hey, can I talk to you? And he had introduced himself and so nice and I. We walked outside and he sat down and we sat on the little patio chairs out there and I just said something along the lines of like, look, man, I don't know what's going on, I don't know what's happening to me right now, but I just all I knew was just to share it. It was like a I don't know. I think it was my first time a higher power talked to me. Doing something different than acting on. Hate was not from me, you know what I mean but this influence to share, and so I shared it with Dan. I said, hey, I don't know why, but I'm just hating you right now. I was crying, probably very emotional, and he said, you know, he said thanks for telling me.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And he's something along the lines of welcome welcome. You know. He said thanks for telling me, wow, and he's something along the lines of welcome welcome. You know, keep sharing. And he didn't. He didn't react, he wasn't overly nice, he didn't try and repair it, he just let me be there with that feeling.
Speaker 1:So that you have that feeling yeah, that's powerful.
Speaker 2:And um, and so I'll never forget that. And and uh, it wasn't necessarily the transient thing that was happening outside, it was what was happening inside of me that made it so profound. But, yes, alumni was that night.
Speaker 1:I don't think we received it quite as well.
Speaker 2:You guys did not receive it quite as well. But once again, you know, it was my first time off training wheels and I did something very similar. Everyone was sharing, I shared and I said I don't know what's going on. I looked everyone in the eye and I said but I hate all of you, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like this guy's making a big splash here day one, yeah, yeah. But you know, to your credit I appreciate is is um, at that point your commit your commitment to rigorous honesty. Even for you know many of us, I think, in this room can relate it's so clunky, if well, it's still. It's clunky like learning how to show up honest and to connect, especially with other guys, which most all of us I've. I think I overheard jill saying recently like really, no matter what our DOC is, there's intimacy disorder at the core of what we're all dealing with, right, and so it's clunky at first to know how to show up honest and sometimes you say things. But I think, to your credit, you came in ready to do the work, even if it meant insulting 25 of your peers all at once.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right off the bat. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah well.
Speaker 1:So let us hear, I'd love to hear a little bit of your story, like just kind of what brought you to valiant, if you wouldn't walk us back through just kind of your the addiction and the struggle, and to the moment where you're like I need, I need help yeah for sure.
Speaker 2:And uh, yeah, you know there's, there's a balance with, in my opinion, for me personally, going into like war stories, right, but also wanting to connect on the level of like, wow, this person might actually get it, you know. So there is a value in sharing it. Uh, discovered drugs in my opinion late, but I don't think that really matters. But, yeah, I was, wasn't doing stuff in like high school whatever, but, um, drugs were always around. Uh, slowly, just, you know, started taking a liking to them. You know, once again, I could bore you with all the details over the course of years, but, but, um, some years I did a lot more. Some years did a little bit less.
Speaker 2:Did this DOC over here, did that DC DOC over there? Um, some years I was abstinent relatively. Um, a lot of ups and downs, but uh, yeah, leading up to Valiant. Uh, I mean, it's a progressive illness and and I didn't understand that, I even heard that phrase prior to getting clean but it just kept progressing. You know, um, and there was a long time where I'm like, well, I'm just using and I'm still, I still got my job and I only call off sick every couple months, you know, from a hangover or something. That's okay.
Speaker 2:And it got to the point where I didn't have a job, my car barely ran, I was in psychosis, I was in a lot of pain, I was stealing money, I was just every day waking up. It was like this one comedian talks about being a drug addict. He's like you're just always doing side quests. You know, you just got to wake up and like gather copper Like he has a dumb joke about that. But um, there was always something I had to repair all the time, you know, and it was a lie over here.
Speaker 2:I got a lie over here and, um, the lies, the psychosis, the pain of coming down, uh, got to the point where it was just, I mean, the suicidal ideation was years prior to this. I mean, it was just like we're past, even thinking about dying. You know, it was just I, I was just riding this, I just like hopped on a rocket and was just on it. Yeah, I had no control until the thing crashed. And so the crash looked, at least internally, like a psychological and spiritual break, probably a psychological break. Just. Everything in me just had to come out. And um, so I, you know, walking down the streets of my boxers, eating a banana, calling my boss, crying, saying I can't come into work. I got a problem, I got to go. If you got to fire me, that's what has to happen. I can't, I can't hurt, I can't hurt any more people and that was actually my. I didn't want to actually act on killing myself, but I just knew I couldn't stand to lie or hurt another person and I just had to let go.
Speaker 1:So a lot of your motivation was in the beginning, was about other people, wasn't even for yourself. Yet you didn't touch that point, yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I didn't. I, I didn't. If you asked me, I'd say I'm good and I love myself, but I didn't. If you asked me, I'd say I'm good and I love myself, but I didn't. That was a lie. That would have been a lie if I had answered back in the day and I'm still learning to love myself. But just my family and friends and these people that were good people. You know, I'm just like wow, look at me, man. I'm just a tornado of just like pain in these people's lives yeah and so my first.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot of thoughts, but that was one of them.
Speaker 1:So what was that catalyst to get you to that conversation with? With the name? How did you get to that spot?
Speaker 2:uh, I, my dad, was going to be in town. He's from texas so he visits every once in a while and I had called my boss. I think my family knew something was up. Some of them knew more than others. There was differences of opinion. Obviously it was causing a lot of turmoil in between. But I basically just started telling my family, you know, and I was like because at the time I was lying about being clean, you know, sure, I'm sure I'm not the only one in this room, but and I was like you know, surprise, surprise, I'm not clean.
Speaker 2:And they were like, yeah, we know, but um, so yeah, told my family and a couple of days later, through my brother-in-law, he knew it was the only treatments facility he knew about.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:And he was like and he works at a church, so he has some resources and stuff, um, but that was it. I called. A couple days later my dad called me. He said here's this option. I think you go talk to the guy. And I texted anine scheduled the next morning. Then I was there yeah and so I didn't do anything.
Speaker 1:My family really yeah, kind of carried you through. That I struggle with, with that question in AA and SA rooms. When you get to that point where you get some length of sobriety and they ask you how do you do it? That question I always struggle with because I'm like man, I just feel like I was carried by so many people. I don't feel like I did much of anything, it's just people who loved me and supported me and kind of got me to that, that spot. And then you do realize like well, no, I've, I've, I've put in work, I've done work. But like getting to that point was, you know, a lot of people carrying, carrying, me through it.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, that's such a I still haven't been able to cause. I just my mind wants to distill everything down to these really catchy sentences or whatever, but I still haven't really been able to like understand that there's a paradox in my thinking, and so when I people say you're putting in the work, my initial thing is to say no, the message has been carried to me. You know what I mean? Um, everyone else has lit, has been ahead of me with a torch and I've just followed. I've listened, I started listening, and listening for me requires me to let go of what I am thinking yeah and what I want almost get out of your head and, yeah, that surrender part is huge.
Speaker 2:Well, talk about sorry, go ahead well, I was just going to say and like I guess if the work, if you did want to kind of put another phrase on it for me is like letting go, yeah, in ways that I never actually thought I could.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, a big part for me in Valiant was the control stuff, right. So talk about just that first, maybe the first month or so when you know you get here, but then you start buttoning up against the systems and the authority and the different stuff.
Speaker 1:I remember a really funny day in group where you try to go get a burrito or something first day. Was that the first day? Yeah, do you guys remember that when he tried it, steven was like no, you're not leaving right now. He was like no, I'm going to get food, and steve's like you're not getting food. I'm like I don't know who's gonna win this battle.
Speaker 2:This is a matter of the wills, but I'm pretty sure my money's on spinoto at this point yeah but that was awkward for everybody and yeah, he, he, I mean everyone had their role, but he broke a lot of people in their first day. I saw, you know what I mean, because he's just a no-nonsense guy and yeah, um, but uh, yeah, um control yeah, uh, like we can't control the doorbell that's going off right now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. So, yes, definitely, first day I'm going to do this thing. No, you're not. Yes, I am. You know what I mean. Who do you think you are? Yeah, yeah, do you know me? Right, what are you? Some therapist? Do you think you know everything? Right, just like stereotypical in retrospect. But I thought I was a genius at the time. But when you start bumping up against life and PHP, I didn't realize how much infrastructure was taking care of me until I got out of it and I was like whoa, I'm like in the wild right now, you know, with like a spear, you know, and like a loincloth, like that was it. But in PHP.
Speaker 1:I thought it was banana and boxers. Now, know, and like a loincloth, like that was it. But in PHV I thought it was banana and boxes. Now you're spearing a loincloth. What is it Exactly?
Speaker 2:It hasn't changed much really on both ends of PHV. But that letting go of control I think there's one element of it was learning how to advocate for myself and speak my mind but also understand that I'm there's a pain in being wrong. I still feel that pain when I'm proven wrong on any given thing. I just there's a, there's a discomfort that I feel and that still hasn't gone away. But I've gotten better at at least tuning in with what that is Gotcha. But in the early months I wasn't in tune with that and so, like you said, kind of clumsily getting through it, they take my phone away for some reason or I don't agree with a decision.
Speaker 1:Wanting you to make your bed every morning, wanting me to make my bed.
Speaker 2:I mean I was just a contrarian for no reason, Wanting you to make your bed every morning, Wanting me to make my bed. I mean I was just a contrarian for no reason, because I thought it was like a principle thing for me.
Speaker 1:I just remember Travis saying if you guys make your bed, what was it every?
Speaker 2:day of the next week, I'll take you to Topgolf.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you were the one guy I was like I'm not going to let Travis dangle this carrot in front of us?
Speaker 2:no, you guys got my back and you guys are like no dude, make your bed, we want to go.
Speaker 1:We do not have your back. Make your bed, bro. Yeah, I remember bigsy, get, get on you. That was really funny.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like yeah but these, these little things as funny, I mean. Actually, you're pointing out an interesting thing, which is that what I realized, um, the more first my main doc's obviously not allowed to use in PHP, but even nicotine, and nicotine I picked up when I was younger, like 13 years old, and so even quitting that I noticed the more I quit, the more I lost. I almost became younger, interesting it's like psychologically and these little rebellious things like not making my bed, and the one that you actually just reminded me of was that you guys were all packed up in the morning ready to go to a group therapy for the day. We do it every day and I, um wanted to sleep in and I was refusing to get out of bed.
Speaker 1:And I think I was over too well, no, it doesn't.
Speaker 2:And, and it reminded me in that moment, I was just tired and I wasn't tired like sleepy tired. My body wasn't tired, my mind certainly wasn't tired, but I was just. I wanted a break, I wanted an out, I wanted a drug, I wanted an escape. And so I didn't have that, thanks to being in the safety net of PHP. But I acted out in these more childish ways. In that moment I remember going dude, this is what you used to do when you were a kid. You didn't want to go to school, you'd pretend you'd do this, even though you felt fine. And, um, I think it was peter, but someone was on the phone with, uh, on-call therapist.
Speaker 2:They started, the phone started ringing and I was like no I'm gonna go and I'm gonna do this and I know it sounds like a little thing, but but it's a big deal when you're in that moment those behaviors come out of the woodworks, for me at least, when I quit the drugs and I'm in this, yeah, this environment thanks for sharing that, man.
Speaker 1:I I mean, I definitely relate to that stuff too and I and there's no shame it like I feel that coming up in me, like when you talk about that, like I feel some shame around how childish I acted in some of those moments, but that's just us. I feel like that's us learning how to live again, how to show up again, how to like that second half of life, and so I appreciate you sharing even those small things and I hope you don't feel any shame in that. I'm with you in that. What, what were the moments for you in? Like php going to iop, you felt, you know, I don't know if breakthroughs are the word, but did you start to feel like, hey, there's like I can start to breathe a little deeper, I'm feeling some peace, like were there any specific moments or has it just been kind of a process all along?
Speaker 2:it is the cliche which, on the front end, I would be like come on another cliche. But now I'm looking back. It really was a just for today mindset that I had to have, and if not that, then a just for this breath. Sometimes there were breakthroughs and then the next day there was the opposite. There was life hits me in the face and all of a sudden I'm regretting every decision I made that led up to this moment. I'm ashamed of where I'm at. I don't wanna do any more work. I want to go back to getting high. I'm fantasizing about drugs or sex or these things that are escaping ways to escape, and moment to moment, just for today, just for this breath, I'm just going to listen to what's around me right now and just keep taking it in, whether it's the wind on my skin or it's someone talking to me or something being shared in group therapy or an NA meeting. So there was definitely just that. Just I kept going back to that.
Speaker 1:Just being fully present in the moment you were in as present as I could be, and there's a song it's called.
Speaker 2:I'll send it to you after, but it's called In this Moment by Born I. Who is this rapper?
Speaker 1:but Of course it's a song I've never heard of. I never knew any of your music. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2:All my friends make fun of that me being into too much esoteric stuff, but yeah, anyway, that was like I would listen to that on the way to the gym after group therapy and that reset me. That gave me enough motivation and that's like a little thing, but it gave me enough motivation to get to my workout. It gave me enough motivation to get to the next thing. There were times I fantasized about climbing out the window late at night and I don't know where I was going to go. I was going to sell my Honda pilot and blow it all on drugs. I thought about that for three days straight one time, so much that like I was crying just to don't do that, just don't do, just keep sharing it. But there was some breakthroughs and the moment I shared about Dan maybe as one, but there was, I remember there's so many, but the one that just popped up, at least for me, was we went to an NA meeting Cause we would do NA meetings, or meetings, 12 step meetings, every night, weekday night, and there was a Tuesday night one, uh, an NA meeting and JR was there. Jr, um was a, kate was my case manager and so, but it was kind of cool seeing him in the recovery space, like he's just, like he's off the clock, and we saw him there by chance, and so it was just kind of. It was funny.
Speaker 2:I think I was about 60 or 90 days clean at that point, and it's a phrase I've heard a lot since then, but I hadn't heard it before. And what he said is he said welcome to Narcotics Anonymous. You never have to use again, even when you want to. And something about that really clicked for me, because it pointed out that my thinking sometimes does want to use drugs, even though I'll be thinking that in a rehab for drug addiction. That's how crazy my thinking is, though I'll be in rehab and still fantasizing about drugs and scheming on how to get more Right, and I'll forget how much pain it causes, and so you don't have to use again, even when you want to. It's like, wow, I want to right now, but I don't have to. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's a powerful thought because I think one thing that we were taught in here was to look at the different parts of ourselves and to kind of honor those parts. I think like learning, like it's not about suppressing those feelings, but like looking at it and saying, hey, in this moment, part of me feels like I want to act out in this way and being able to bring that into the light and share it and have community around it, which was such a it was such an opposite way of thinking for me. I grew up in an environment where you just you absolutely did not talk about the things you struggled with and admitting that there's a part of you that still wants to act out and that that, in some ways, is a very healthy thing to bring to the table, bring the light and help you to to stay sober right. Yeah, the sharing was so important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so important because it's like we're all walking into a room with like I'm an addict written on our foreheads, basically because we're in treatment, so there's no getting around it. We're all here for a reason and connecting, like you, sharing something. There's so many times where you were vulnerable, or so many people in this room where each one of these people that I spent time with were vulnerable and I was finally able to connect with people and for a moment, just a small moment, it relieved that gnawing inside of me that needed more, and so that connection is just the most important thing.
Speaker 1:So talk about life post-valiant. How long have you been sober now?
Speaker 2:I think a little over 20 months.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great Congratulations.
Speaker 2:So thanks man, it's a big deal yeah.
Speaker 1:What's life been like post-valiant? All rainbows and sunshine up into the right. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh man, I'm not a good salesman for recovery, yeah, but no, it hasn't been. But it's been there, has. I mean, there's been definitely moments like that. But there's some mystery to life that me as a human can't comprehend, that, although I might never get there, so to speak, I it just happens, you know.
Speaker 2:Um, beautiful moments, sad moments, angry moments, um, and yes, there is just the kind of mundane, let's be honest waking up in the morning, cold shower, uh, going to work same lunchbox, same job, same people, same how's it going? There's that for sure. But underneath that and kind of in these little gaps of all that, there's just profound beauty all around me. And I'm so, you know, obviously just being clean, like, yes, it's a mess and it's hard, it's not easy. I fantasize about getting high this week, like, let's be honest, Like I still do that, I still want to escape. That's still my default mode is to want to escape. But life after Valiant has been incredible, you know, and you know has been incredible, you know, and you know, I never thought I'd want to come back here and full circle moment, man yeah.
Speaker 1:But, it's.
Speaker 2:It was the catalyst to, to my experience that I have now, yeah, and I'm so grateful that I'm just I'm in it, I'm in recovery.
Speaker 1:What? Um, we'll close with this and if anybody has a comment or a question, we can do it. But what? What encouragement would you give for your, your brothers that are, you know, just on the same path, but just a little further behind, or their early stages, php or ip, whatever, or just out of treatment, like looking back over the last 20 months? Do you have any encouragement, or what do you wish you could even told yourself back in some of those early days?
Speaker 2:yeah, there's another na phrase. There's no big eyes or little use, you know, and the therapeutic value of one addict helping another is without parallel. There's no offense to the therapist in here, but, um, it doesn't matter if you're a day clean or 10 years clean, those are both. You're an addict, is an addict. And so just, I guess, to kind of go back to early people or advice or anything like, people in early recovery help me and I help them, and there's this beautiful symbiotic nature to all that any addict talking to another addict is so helpful, at least for me personally. But advice that I would have is man, I mean vulnerability, I think was there's so many principles that are important to this, but vulnerability, and that word has changed. For me there's a new definition of vulnerability. Um, for me, um, it it does mean being honest, but it means like being like radically honest with myself and with other people that I trust, and that trust needs to get built over time.
Speaker 2:Um, but I guess my advice would be um, um, be as honest as you can with yourself and with other people, even if it's painful, even if you don't have faith in that moment. And there's there's a, I guess there's a battle of faith and doubt always taking place inside of me. Um, I could be. I mean, there's all these different people in this room right now and we're all having different experiences, and someone might be having a really bad day and someone might be having a really great day, and so these physical realms that we're in are not what really define our experience. There's something in inside, you know. Something in inside, you know. Um, I was on that couch a year and a half ago seeing demons that were like doing all sorts of messed up stuff to me. I was in psychosis, I was seeing stuff and I and I didn't know what to do about it.
Speaker 2:But, point being, I can be in a very similar space and have a very different experience, and so I guess to point that out is just say, like each decision is going to be a decision of faith or doubt. You might not want to some days, but if you have faith that the right thing will lead to a better life in the future, then I recommend making that decision. But the thing is, even if you don't want that for yourself because I hated myself, even if you just have to play a trick on your brain and say you know what? I'm just going to do this for 30 days and I'll go back to getting high. Maybe just do that just to get yourself through the day.
Speaker 2:I did that plenty of times. I told myself you know what? I'm going to sell my car and blow it all on drugs tomorrow, but today I'm going to hit the gym. I'm going to hit the gym, I'm going to talk with someone in recovery and I'm going to pray. I didn't even know what that is. I still don't just like I don't know, fold my hands and just God, yeah, Um. But faith and doubt, just keep an eye on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good man, Bro. Thank you for sharing your story, man. It's so fun to be able to sit with you at this part of our journey and reflect, reminisce, and I totally agree with what you're saying, man. It feels like one day at a time and it also feels like it does not feel like an arrival either. There's not like sitting here like, oh, let's look at the you know To me it feels like no, we're in it every day.
Speaker 1:We need each other today more than ever, and it's just a really beautiful place to be in. So thanks for sharing your story thank you. Any comments, questions? Anybody have anything?
Speaker 2:you don't have to, but I just want to make stories, yeah yeah, no, people have opportunity to ask whatever they wanted to. Yeah, how you were valiant for 90 days, or was it longer?
Speaker 1:Great question. He asked how long was he valiant? Was he valiant for 90 days or longer, was the question.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, they quoted me on 30 days, and it ended up being six months, which is where the laughter came from. Days in php and 90 in iop. Uh, I believe some roughly so. Yeah, a lot longer than I thought, though. A lot longer than I thought yeah, what?
Speaker 1:what convinced you to stay um?
Speaker 2:you felt like you had more work to be done there were times I mean, once again, I think that faith or doubt kind of thing kicks in, but there were. What convinced me to stay was maybe my higher power had JR convince me one day. Maybe my higher power had you convince me one day, without even directly convincing me, you might have shared something that I needed to hear that day that kept me in that chair one more day. So what convinced me was just continuing to listen and continuing to have hope, and the person in front of me typically gave me hope.
Speaker 1:I was talking to coach today about living in consultation as like such a key part of our recovery and sobriety, like having people around you to help you make decisions, is so it's just huge for for our continued growth and for sure, right on the stuff, yeah, any other questions or I?
Speaker 2:don't know if you know this, but, um, cold water emergent is now part of our program. Nice, awesome, also sorry. I remember doing a hike in El Dorado Canyon and we all came down it was a fairly cold day and we all get down back to the parking lot and we turn around Where's John? Oh, he's half naked in the creek. Amazing, awesome, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's not a requirement.
Speaker 1:Yeah, amazing awesome yeah yeah, that's not a requirement, yeah.
Speaker 2:I climbed a mountain and meditated on a rock, but some other details. Yeah, that's good to hear, though honestly, I thought it was so important. I mean I was, yes, I woke up in the morning and I the cold was the first time I learned up in the morning and I, um, the cold was, um, the first time I learned how to connect with my higher power in like a way, that was a conversation. It wasn't like all these little hints here and there. I would, um, you know, everyone would just like kind of make fun of me, but, uh, it'd be winter time, I'd have my running shorts on, running shoes, a of gloves and my headphones and I'd go on a run and I would just run wherever the direction of the moon was.
Speaker 2:I don't know some hippie stuff, but I would just start to get this feeling yeah, you know and it's. I know it sounds weird or whatever, but that's not for everybody. Everyone has their own thing. Have an open mind, you know, but I had. My mind was open, my brains fell out, I think I only run the direction of the kitchen.
Speaker 1:That's the only place I run.
Speaker 2:Oh man, Anybody else Question, comment, whatever I have a question Do you do meetings every day? Do you have a sponsor? Do you do?
Speaker 1:steps. How do you find your higher power? Just anything along those lines. Yeah, answer, you know the steps. Um, how do you find your higher power? Uh, yeah, I um.
Speaker 2:So the question was about what work and recovery program yeah, you know, like in it, in no, but it all. I mean I need all of those elements I do. And, to answer your question, yes to all of those um, and that is cut me off if I'm getting too detailed or whatever. I don't know how we are in time or anything, but I have been reluctant with all of those things at some point and I still find myself being reluctant to go to a meeting um, to get a uh, to talk with my sponsor, to talk with my sponsor, and early in PHP they make you do that, which in retrospect I'm really glad they did, because I thought, as I'm recovering here, I'm like, oh, I'll go back out, I'll be fine, I'll be totally fine.
Speaker 2:And I have noticed since being out of recovery or being out of rehab and being in the real world without that recovery infrastructure, I go back to the disease of addiction and back to obsessive and compulsive behaviors, and I can find myself back in that to an extreme in a matter of two days, and so coming to terms with that has been its own challenge. I'm never cured, the learning never stops, and so at first I was like you know what? I'm going to get a treatment, I'm going to go hit a couple of meetings, say have a couple of phone numbers to call, right, that didn't work. I found myself suicidal, I found myself angry, I found myself in chaos again. I didn't use over it, which I'm grateful for, but it didn't matter. My thinking is the problem not the drugs. Drugs are just a byproduct, and so, with a sponsor and working a program the way it's suggested mine is NA, but whatever 12 steps works for you. Continuing that on a daily basis has been vital to me staying clean and me staying sane?
Speaker 1:Great question, thanks, yeah, awesome. Anyone else Dude thanks?
Speaker 2:Thank you man.
Speaker 1:It took a lot of courage to share your story in this room, so let's give it up for Jonathan. Good job, thanks, guys. Well, we appreciate you listening to this episode of the Valiant Living Podcast, and our hope is that it helped you feel educated, encouraged and even empowered on your journey towards peace and freedom. If we can serve you or your loved one in any way, we'd love to have a conversation with you. You can call 720-756-7941 or email admissions at valiantlivingcom. At Valiant Living, we treat the whole person so you not only survive, but you thrive in the life you deserve. And finally, if this episode has been helpful to you, it would mean a lot to us if you'd subscribe and even share it with your friends and family. You can also follow along with us on Instagram and Facebook by simply searching Valiant Living. Thanks again for listening and supporting the Valiant Living podcast. We'll see you next week.
