Valiant Living Podcast
Welcome to the Valiant Living Podcast where we educate, encourage, and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom.
Valiant Living has been restoring lives and families since 2017 by providing multiple levels of care for men and their families. Fully accredited by The Joint Commission, Valiant Living has earned a national reputation as a premier treatment program, offering IOP, PHP, and recovery housing programs for men ages 26 and older. Founder and CEO MIchael Dinneen is a nationally recognized therapeutic expert, speaker, and thought leader in the behavioral health field.
On this podcast you’ll hear from the Valiant team as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at (720)-756-7941 or email admissions@valiantliving.com We’d love to have a conversation with you!
Valiant Living Podcast
Special Guest: Amanda Mckoy Flanagan. "Transform Your Relationships by Healing Your Grief"
Embarking on a journey through the complex tapestry of the human experience, we're joined by the unparalleled Amanda, whose life story unravels in our latest podcast episode. Her voice resonates with the wisdom of someone who's walked through fire and emerged not just intact, but reborn. She candidly delves into the intricate process of writing her book, a two-year odyssey of perseverance and the sweet agony of creation, while balancing her roles as a podcaster and recovery worker. Amanda's narrative is a beacon for anyone who's ever feared that their dreams might remain just beyond reach, illustrating the profound impact of dedication and the beauty of seeing a vision through to the end.
Amanda's raw and powerful recount of her battle with addiction, and her transformative journey to sobriety since relocating to Colorado, paints a portrait of a soul forged in the fires of self-discovery. Having navigated the stormy seas of substance abuse, her insights into the fears of creativity's loss in sobriety and the surprising discovery of authentic connections are nothing short of inspirational. The conversation navigates through the heart of grief, as Amanda shares how her profound losses have not only shaped her but also brought about an unexpected sense of clarity and direction in her life. Her story is a reminder that our most trying moments often serve as the catalysts for our greatest growth.
As the episode draws to a close, we're left with a sense of gratitude for the vulnerability and profundity Amanda has brought into our space. The episode is a testament to Valiant Living's mission to educate, encourage, and empower individuals on their paths to peace and freedom. Her journey of overcoming grief and confronting generational dysfunction invites listeners to reflect on their own narratives and the strength that can be found within a community. We wrap up with an open invitation to our audience: join the conversation, reach out for support, and allow Amanda's story to be a guiding light in your own journey towards healing and transformation.
Well, hey, everyone. Welcome to the Valiant Living podcast, where we educate, encourage and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom. I'm your host, Drew Powell, and I'm a grateful alumni of the Valiant Living program. Valiant Living offers hope and transformational change to men and their families struggling with addiction and mental health challenges. So on this podcast you'll hear from the Valiant team, as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at 720-756-7941. Or you can email admissions at valiantlivingcom. We'd love to have a conversation with you, but for now, let's dive into today's episode. Well, Amanda, thanks for joining us on the Valiant Living Podcast.
Speaker 2:I'm so happy to be here. Thank you.
Speaker 1:You are. I don't know if you know this but you're our first official guest that we've ever had on the podcast. It's been either Valiant Victories or staff. So you're our very first like you're not an outsider, you're one of us, but outside the organization coming and talking, so it's a huge honor to have you.
Speaker 2:Wow, I'm honored. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:So, podcaster, author, therapist, you, I mean, how do you have time to do all of this?
Speaker 2:I mean, how do you have time to do all of this? I'm not really a and I have two kids, but I'm not actually a therapist I kind of therapize people individually when they'll listen, but probably more of that happens in my recovery work with my you know sponsees and stuff like that, but how do I find time? I'm a really good. Well, I've heard now multitasking really isn't a thing. It's really not possible that the brain cannot actually focus on more than one thing at a time.
Speaker 1:Well, that makes me feel good, because I'm terrible at it.
Speaker 2:So I'm happy to know that.
Speaker 1:I'm not missing out on anything.
Speaker 2:I'm a little upset about it because I prided myself on that, like I could do like 15 things at the same time.
Speaker 1:Turns out that was just anxiety.
Speaker 2:Exactly Having to get it all done. No, just I try to find a balance and it ebbs and flows and sometimes, like when I was writing my book, it was just. I was just totally consumed I really did not have great balance. My kids were not happy about it. It took a lot of time from them, but-.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how long does that process I mean-.
Speaker 2:It's a long process and it's a very cool process If you're interested in writing a book or anybody listening wants to write a book. It is so worthwhile so it depends. So some people they call them like pantsters, like seat of your pants, like you just kind of fly blind and whatever you write, you write. Or some people are more like people that write outlines, like you're more of a planner.
Speaker 1:Oh right.
Speaker 2:The next book will be more planned. I will start with an outline. This one was so divinely inspired that I couldn't. I didn't even know I was going to write a, so it was just like a download. It was just a total download, so that was about six months of just getting it all out there, and then when I found my editor and rewrote it a bunch of times, the book actually changed. That happens with almost every author I've met. What you think you're writing about actually comes up from the unconscious as you're writing.
Speaker 2:It's completely different. So, from start to finish the whole thing, when I knew I was going to write a book to when I published, was about two years. Today is actually the one-year anniversary of the e-book and tomorrow's one-year anniversary of the paperback.
Speaker 1:So good timing yeah it was a really cool experience. I want people to get all your material and go to your website so we'll put all that in the show notes. If you're listening or watching, we'll link to all that stuff. Um, but yeah, I'm always really um intrigued by someone who has the discipline to because that's my thing, like if I, I have ideas for days, but someone who can turn an idea into an actual plan and execute and then write something that takes months, or sometimes even years to do is always really impressive. For my personality type, I'm more like let's record a podcast, we're done in 30 minutes and then ship it. But I love that. I love that you did that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just have that thing in me.
Speaker 2:I kind of call it my like survivor-ness like having to like I don't know, I just I get something in my head and I need to see it through, or else I kind of feel like a failure. You know, it might not be the best motive, but it gets me to the finish line where I just want to see whatever, I have to be passionate about it. If I'm not passionate about it, it's just not going to happen. But once I really know inside that I want to do something, like starting the clubhouse in Castle Rock it's about 30, 25 minutes south of here. I just knew, like in the book, I just knew, you know, moving out to Colorado from New York, I just knew, like those things that are just so deep in me they have to come to fruition or else I actually get anxiety over it Really not doing it.
Speaker 2:Finishing it will give me more anxiety because it just makes me feel like I'm supposed to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Why aren't I doing that?
Speaker 1:That makes sense to me, though, like I, I love that, like I'm, I am working on that I'm such a starter and I'm trying to like, no, what do I need to quit, what do I need bit what I need to finish, and sometimes embrace that like it's okay to be a starter if you've got people in your life that can get it across the finish line. We joke because you and I work on graphic stuff together and I love working with you on it because I'll throw out some design stuff. And then you kind of come in behind and make it all better and now it's like relieves pressure because I'm like, okay, well, yeah, if I can get this 80, 90 there, amanda's gonna get across the finish line.
Speaker 2:for me most, likely I'm going to find something. Anyway, I'm really I've been told I'm a little demanding. I'm trying to work on that character flaw, um, and just kind of going with the flow a little bit more.
Speaker 2:But I, you know, I am detail oriented. I always have been, and that actually is interesting because that came from my hyper vigiligilance as a kid. You know trauma and whatever, having to read the room right, people who say that they're really good at reading a room, like that's great quality to have. But for me it was more about the hypervigilance of like I have to like know everything that's going on all the time and that kind of translated into this, like perfectionism, almost of like this and that kind of translated into this perfectionism almost of like this Interesting, I can just see a whole bunch of stuff at the same time. So I'm trying to integrate that flaw into an attribute and that's been kind of a process and it's working out pretty well for me so far because things are going well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. A lot of great things going on in your life and I want to get to some of those things and even as you're just saying that, like it's a whole nother podcast.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Totally yeah. The stuff that we struggle with can sometimes be our greatest strength and be our greatest weakness, all that kind of stuff, and so I'm like resisting the urge to go down that rabbit trail.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's so interesting to me, but I do want to start with just your story, because you've got a great story, and then I do want to get to. We're going to be doing some events together and you've got a great friendship with our wellness director, melissa, who we all love. She's been on the podcast a couple times but I wanted our alumni, our people, our friends, our partners to get to know you so as these events come up, they know some of your story and backstory. So we'll talk about all that, but give us kind of the the amanda mccoy flanagan down and dirty quick story.
Speaker 2:Uh, I love on your website.
Speaker 1:You said you're a something like. I'm a tree hugger with street smarts yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Native new yorker, turned colorado and I blend, I think I say I blend street smarts with tree hugging that's what it was.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:For a pragmatic approach to spirituality, love, loss, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, so I got sober 2006. I was 26 years old. I think the magic number when we kind of most of us are drinking is 13. I have an older brother who since passed away. He was three years older than me and I me and my friends always wanted to be cool like them. You know, we were freshmen, they were seniors in high school and we just followed them around to keg parties and I just kind of knew really early on about 15, 16 years old that I drank differently than other people.
Speaker 1:Really yeah. What do you mean by?
Speaker 2:that I was always the one that I was the designated drunk driver. At 17 years old, like my friends trusted me, I was the first one with the car. I always, I just always had to drink. Like I knew it was different. Like I remember one time, I think we were in ninth grade, my brother bought us like a six pack or something for like a couple of three of us girls or something, and we were like going to split them and I was like I should get an extra one because my brother bought them for us you know, and then I saw my friend pouring hers out and I was like what are you doing?
Speaker 2:You don't throw that away.
Speaker 1:Why are you wasting that?
Speaker 2:So from that early on I had that mentality.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 2:Of like. No, you drink, and you drink for effect.
Speaker 1:Right, right, like. Why else would I? This is purposeful. It's purposeful.
Speaker 2:Everything in my life is purposeful, why not my drinking right? So yeah, so it was like it didn't make sense to me to just drink something that didn't taste good, Just why, you know, or just to get that buzz. That buzz wasn't? Most people get a buzz and they either get tired or they're just, they're satisfied.
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 2:The buzz to me is like the let's go sign, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I don't get tired. I've never heard anybody say that before, but I relate to that Like and that's why I think when, when I was drinking, I had a similar thing, but I've not connected the dots until just now. A lot of the buzz for a lot of people is the sign to maybe start winding down or I'm there to me that was like starting line Now.
Speaker 2:I'm feeling it.
Speaker 1:Let's go when I should have been winding down. That's interesting that you say it that way.
Speaker 2:And I always knew that it woke me up and I kind of knew my mom would say to me Amanda, you change, like after like a drink or two. Like your face changes, your eyes change the way you speak, the things you say you change. Right, we talk about Dr Jekyll. Mr Hyde, you know and that was me and I kind of knew I was talking about this this morning in the meeting didn't take a neuroscience degree to figure out that I had some kind of chemical reaction, some kind of change. I remember telling my mom that I think something happens in my brain when I drink alcohol that like I can tell you at the end. I was very good at telling you, like from one sip to the next, like when that change was going to happen, my alter ego, who I named Judy for some reason, Just felt like a Judy.
Speaker 2:Judy yeah, just felt like Judy. That's funny, judy. Judy would come out and I couldn't put Judy away until I was. You know, there was nothing left. Until there was nothing left, and you know, as I lived in Brooklyn for a couple of years, I'm from New York. I said that and I would be out, you know, looking and gallivanting around the streets looking for alcohol. Five, six o'clock in the morning. I worked in Manhattan.
Speaker 2:I would stay out after work and drink and women were being killed in Manhattan at this time in the early 2000s. And you know, I'm lucky to be alive. I thousands, and I'm lucky to be alive. I don't think I'm supposed to be dead. A lot of people say that I think I'm supposed to be alive because I'm supposed to be here, or else I wouldn't be.
Speaker 1:But I'm blessed and lucky that I was not. Did you not care? Or was it just, were you oblivious to it? Because the addiction was so strong that it was driving you Like what in you at that? Because this is, how old would you have been at that point?
Speaker 2:That was probably 24, 25.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Towards the end.
Speaker 1:So you're a little older, I mean you're not a teenager, but you're still, I mean that's you know, 24, 25, walking around five in the morning, manhattan, I can imagine. Probably not the best, no Idea, right.
Speaker 2:So what is it that I was going to say? Empowered, but what? What? How'd you do that? Like it was just this real, like I don't know inborn or I don't know what kind of word to use, but it was so ingrained this sense of like masochistic self-sabotage or like and that's why I drank, because I well I knew, like we say, we always think we're going to just have one or two.
Speaker 2:Sure, that happened on occasion. The majority of the time I'd say 80, 90% of the time I drank, I drank knowing I started drinking, knowing something bad was probably going to happen. I just hoped that it wasn't going to be too bad. So I knew that that was a potential that I most likely was going to end up in a dangerous place. But I was willing to accept that because I just had these masochistic tendencies to harm myself.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's a powerful statement. Like I knew it was going to be bad. Just a matter of how bad is it going to be when you started.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:When you started drinking that day or that night, it's like, okay, this is not going to end well, I hope it's just not too bad, but I'm going to do it anyway because that obsession, the overwhelming obsession of the mind we talked about, and the compulsion and all that I needed to escape that bad, that I was willing to risk that Well, I think a lot of listeners are going to be able to relate to that, and I know I do.
Speaker 1:I mean, I made some horrific choices that looking back now, I'm like that doesn't even feel like the same person.
Speaker 2:I know right.
Speaker 1:You know, but that's that cunning, baffling, that's just the part of the addiction that drives our brain to do these things. And looking back, you're just like no way in my right mind do I do those things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's like I know something bad's going to happen.
Speaker 2:but I kind of always thought you know, but I'll be okay Do you feel a bit invincible, or do you just feel like, like, yeah, I mean your muscles you know, I talked about all that right, like, yes, I kind of felt like I'll be all right, no matter what it is, and and if I'm not, then whatever, right. Like I had no self-worth, I had zero self-respect. I just I needed that escape. I needed the false reality of you know, um, I'm funnier, I'm prettier, I'm happier. People like me, you know all that kind of stuff, just to let myself loose.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know we say it's interesting. I've had this realization recently that they we talk about how we drank to numb out. I actually realized towards the end I drank to feel I drank because I was numb sober.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 2:I was walking around just this like shell of a person, yeah, and I know this because I would always start crying I would drink and after like a couple of hours, so emotions would start coming out. I'd call people, I would tell them how I really felt, whether it was positive or negative, usually Truth serum, right yeah.
Speaker 2:Usually it was wishy-washy or whatever, very emotional. But yeah, I actually needed that liquid courage basically to reach the places inside of me. I would do a lot of writing. I would get really deep. I used to call it philosophizing. My friends are like that's not a word.
Speaker 1:I'm like yeah, it is, Look it is.
Speaker 2:I was like the ultimate philosophizer. I would write letters to organizations try and save the world. I used to get really deep and just a little out there. I'd look at stuff that I would write the next day. Some of my inventions were really cool though. We really do need that antibacterial steering wheel.
Speaker 1:I don't know if they have that yet. That's hilarious. Well, we have it trademarked here. You said it here on the podcast.
Speaker 2:There we go, it's ours, it's ours now, yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:Well, that is really intriguing to me that you drank to feel. And I want to come back to this idea, because a lot of people, when they get sober, they think because I felt this way too, am I going to even like when they get sober, they think because I felt this way too, am I going to even like myself when I'm sober? And so I don't want to because I want to make sure we're telling your story in time. So I don't want to jump too far ahead, but could you just speak to that for a second? Can we just take a brief little rabbit trail and talk about where you're at now? As far as looking back then and thinking, man, I'm funnier, I'm all these things when I'm drinking and now that you're in sobriety, how do you view that?
Speaker 2:So I remember I started therapy the same week that I stopped drinking and I remember telling her I'm afraid to stop drinking because I don't think I'm going to be creative.
Speaker 1:Oh, and she said the inventions are going away. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly and she said, no, no, amanda, she goes. That's inside of you. It's just inhibited when you're sober because you're not allowing yourself to go there, but it's still in there, wow. So I was like, okay, I'm going to see if I got this. So I go home and I wrote this really awesome poem and I was like, wow, that's pretty good, I have it. I still have it. So looking back like that funny or the pretty was never real. You know, now it's real. Like now the creativity that comes out of me or the connections and the real connections with people and the emotions and the love and the feeling is real. Versus when I was drinking, that was just a facade, that wasn't truly me, yeah. So now I am of those things and I can do that sober. But I mean this I'll be coming up on 18 years in July, so it takes a long time.
Speaker 1:Congratulations, thank you, that's incredible.
Speaker 2:Thank you, and I only say it to you know, tell people this takes a long time, like I actually did not truly find myself until I was 12 years sober, and this is all part of the story. I've suffered a lot of grief in recovery. I had a boyfriend who died when we were both eight months sober. He overdosed and then actually I had a pretty good span of time with no major trauma or anything, and then we moved to Colorado in 2015. I was nine years sober at that point.
Speaker 2:I had a bit of an identity crisis. I had no idea that I was so wrapped up in being a New Yorker. And just anywhere you live, right, we get comfortable in our surroundings and our environment and our friends and our family and the life we're living tends to define us.
Speaker 1:That's true.
Speaker 2:Create our identity, and I had none of that. I was stripped of all of that when I moved to Colorado and I was just with me.
Speaker 1:Do you know anybody here?
Speaker 2:when you moved, we had an acquaintance yeah.
Speaker 1:But not a strong community, not at all.
Speaker 2:So recovery was my community.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And I couldn't even feel connected to that because it was very small and it was a little clicky and I felt like I didn't really fit. I don't know, it just felt maybe I was resistant, I don't like change. So part of it was just me. So I just had a really, really hard time. I missed my recovery friends at home, my sponsor. Like I just was really, really sad, and so that was a big period of grief.
Speaker 1:Why Colorado?
Speaker 2:Well, to be honest, I mean it might sound a little crazy, but we got hit with Hurricane Sandy in 2012. We lived on a shore town on the south shore of Long Island called Long Beach. It got covered with four feet of water from ocean to bay Very traumatic. My husband had just retired as a firefighter. A week before that he was in 9-11. He has trauma attached to New York. We were starting to have kids and we were just looking around and we said maybe we could go live somewhere, I don't know, with a really nice quality of life. It's very expensive in New York. We lived in this great house on the beach but in a small property and on top of each other and all that kind of stuff. So I took out the map during the storm because I was probably I was triggered.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:Because I couldn't get in touch with my husband and I pulled out the map and I pointed to the middle of the country because I'm like we're getting off the coast with these hurricanes you know Right. And because we had just gotten one the year before.
Speaker 1:We're going to high ground is what we're doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're going a mile high. So, uh, right, the highest point I could find so uh, it was Kansas was the middle of the country and I was like you know, I'm sure Kansas is great, but I don't know about for New Yorker, I'm not sure I could acclimate that easily. So I see Colorado, right next to it, and I was like my friend had just gotten back from my sponsor, I'd just gotten back from Colorado. She loved it, she was on this retreat and it was amazing. So I'm like we're going to Colorado and that was.
Speaker 2:I just knew. I didn't know Castle Rock, but I just knew we were going to end up in Colorado. We came here, spent a month. We actually thought we'd be in Boulder. We switched gears on that, but we spent a month out here, we subletted and it was really enough time to go back and realize for all the other different reasons, we're not here for weather anymore, because we could get a fire in our backyard tonight, right, so like that's neither here nor there, nine years ago it felt a little different to me.
Speaker 2:Now I know that's not true, but it's more just about the quality of life and the mountains. I do miss the ocean. I mean I grew up on the water, had a boat. You know we were. I was of time so I do miss that, but there's something about the mountains and the energy here I totally agree.
Speaker 1:I miss the water. I grew up in florida so I miss the water. But when I'm out here there is something about just the air and the mountains, whatever. I just breathe deeper, it's like, feels like a thin space between heaven and earth. You know, it just feels like I don't know if the spirituality out here or I don't know, but I, I agree, but that's that's, that's kind of wild. You just took a leap.
Speaker 2:Yeah, most people make a big change like that for work, right, Everyone. Well, why are you moving? Just because we want to, and family didn't like that. A lot of people were hurt. But about a year in I just broke down. I had my second emotional breakdown and recovery. That's when I got deep into meditation. That was when the door kind of opened for this unconditional self-worth that I now have. I started to feel a shred of that.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm nine years sober at this point I'm doing all this stuff, but you just don't know what you don't know until you know it, life has to present. Experiences have to happen for you to be in these situations, to really know how you're going to react.
Speaker 1:And to give we were talking before we started recording and to give grace to that person who we were before, before we knew what we knew. Right, like that's, you were even helping me with that before we started. Like hey there's, we look back on our former selves and it's easy to feel shame, but it's like we were doing the best we could at the time with what we knew, you know.
Speaker 2:Exactly so. I'm in another 12-step program that talks about survival traits. That's the phrase that they use for what we call character flaws or whatever we call them shortcomings, defects of character. Survival traits means that to expect me to have ended up any way than I was as a result of my life experience is unrealistic, that there is no way I could have been any different so, even at all those years in recovery, I just was where I was at, what I was capable of at the time.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, we have to give ourselves a lot of grace.
Speaker 1:It does help with self-love and self-compassion. A lot of what I learned here at Valiant was that Because a lot of us it does help with self-love and self-compassion. A lot of what I learned here at valiant was that because a lot of us guys come in feeling just tons of shame, like how do we let this happen to ourselves? You know all the different things, and a therapist said something similar to me than what was what you just said, which is basically drew it.
Speaker 1:When you look back at your past experiences and what shaped you, like you, what other choice did you have but to end up here like this was kind of like and it it did help, like show some compassion, because I was feeling like man, well, control is such a big thing, oh yeah, for me and for a lot of us that are in recovery. So it's like I this is my fault. I should have been able to control my future better than what I was able to do. How, how did I end up in this place? So I think that's a really important for people to hear. Right, like you know, now that you know, or now that you see, or now that you're you know, I was just in a group last night, with Jill here talking about denial, now that you're trying to get to this place of acceptance. So now what? Now, what do we do about it? As opposed to feeling all the shame of like.
Speaker 2:Well, I should have done this different or should have done this better and all the shoulds right.
Speaker 1:It's usually unhelpful. So how did you so? You're in Colorado now and you've been here. How long You've lived? Here it's nine years now, nine years in Colorado, so this feels like home for you now.
Speaker 2:You know I talk in my book about how home is neither here nor there. My true home is wherever I am here nor there. My true home is wherever I am. That's great, Because I have this connection to spirit, and spirit is my true home. Okay, I love that. But yes, I can definitely. I feel closer to my soul in Colorado, definitely, so yeah, I would call it home, but I always still say oh, I'm coming home, and I tell my friends I'm coming home. New York will always be my true home.
Speaker 2:But this is with my kids and my husband. Our kids were one in three when we moved.
Speaker 1:So building our life here, yeah, yeah, that's great. So how did you get into the work that you're doing now?
Speaker 2:So I went to social work school when I was. I went back when I was two years sober. I went back to school and I thought that I wanted to be a therapist. Thought that I wanted to be a therapist and I quickly learned that I didn't want to do therapy, because I do a lot of that in recovery with the girls that I work with right. I didn't think I wanted to be in that all the time and then, before I even graduated, I got pregnant. We were married, got pregnant and we decided that I would stay home. So I was a stay-at-home mom. I still am, so any work that I do is really from home. So this, everything that's going on for me now the book, the podcasting, the speaking, the workshops, all the stuff that I'm doing completely out of left field, it was not planned.
Speaker 1:So this wasn't like a life goal, a dream I'm going to do all this stuff, it just kind of happened.
Speaker 2:Nope, I mean, I was an English major, journalism, minor, social work degree, like I've I kind of. So what happened was it was during covid and I think a lot of people who are tapped in, tuned in, aware, uh, you know, seeking a purpose. All that. I basically was like, okay, my kids are getting a little bit older. I've always was a worker. I never didn't work. I worked since I was like 13, 14, till I was 28 when I got, when I was pregnant, um, so I kind of always knew that I would go back to work of some sort. So I kind of put it out there. I said, all right, god, what do you want me to do? Where do you want me to be of service Number one? What am I naturally good at? What am I passionate about? What is my education background? How do I bring all of this together? And so that was during COVID. And then early 2021, still COVID-ish, and I'm running on my treadmill and all of a sudden I just get hit with this divine inspiration and knowing you're going to write a book and I believe that was my brother.
Speaker 2:I didn't tell the story, but my brother passed away overdosed six years ago and I'm very close with him in spirit and I feel like it was him, because I went through this whole crazy experience after he died.
Speaker 2:I tried to push my husband away out of fear that he was next. I didn't realize at all that that's what I was doing, but that's actually what I was doing fear of loss and so we went through this whole healing process, where that's really where I got to this place of finding myself, my true self, my unconditional self-worth, my unconditional self-love, and I have a story to tell. So that was like okay, you need to write this, because if you feel this way, there are other people out there who feel this way this fear of vulnerability, of emotional intimacy, of getting too close because the shoe's going to drop, or all that kind of stuff that was kind of passed down generationally. I talk a lot about generational family dysfunction and these messages. Um, so I'm running and I and like and we were talking before I think we started um it just I don't know we were talking earlier how it just flew.
Speaker 2:It just flew and flew out it was a download, it was just like boom, like what, and it was like the dots were connecting in, really like felt to me like profound ways. Um, so I start writing this book and then I start learning about marketing a book and they say you know, you should start a podcast or you should do this, you should do that. And I'm like, yes, a pod. Like so, right up my alley, I love to talk, I love people, I love connecting, I love connecting other people with new people Like I just I'm like I'm a bit of a matchmaker, so I'm like that's perfect. So then I started doing that. I asked one of my good friends if she wanted to do it with me and that's been probably the most fun part of all of this.
Speaker 1:How long have you been doing your podcast for?
Speaker 2:Just a year.
Speaker 1:I want our people to get that and listen to that. It's been a year A little over a year.
Speaker 2:So season one is just me and my co-host. She wasn't working at the time. She had to go back to work, so we kind of scaled her back a little bit. So we do one show a month just she and I, because we have this fantastic chemistry and energy, like I think we're funny. And then we go deep and it's just, it's good. And then I do one show a month with a guest.
Speaker 1:Ok, so it's just Two episodes a month.
Speaker 2:Biweekly yep.
Speaker 1:Great, that's awesome yeah.
Speaker 2:We'll link to that lot of fun and, by the way, congratulations, because a year in podcast world is a long time I don't know if you know this or not, but most podcasts only make it like three episodes really, yeah, statistically.
Speaker 1:So you're beating all the odds in the podcast world, so congratulations awesome, it's so much fun I do want to. I want to come back to and this is part of some of the events we're doing as well because a big part of your story as you already mentioned it deals with grief. Um, and I don't put words in your mouth, but it feels like a catalyst to some of the connection that you're experiencing today and the spiritual connection that you're having. Grief was a catalyst for a lot of that, right is that? Is that?
Speaker 2:my, you are. I mean we're wearing the same color. Our dog we realized before the show everybody. We both have a dog named Dolly.
Speaker 1:I know, I know there's so much connection I love it.
Speaker 2:The first chapter of my book is named Catalyst. Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:The Catalyst. Okay, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:And it's my brother's death.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, so you are on point my friend, Wow, I got chills. That's great.
Speaker 2:Yes, that was the catalyst. The grief was the catalyst for me having to go in and really kind of excavate these limiting belief systems I had around really love and loss. Because, like I said, when my brother died I pushed my husband. He's 12 years older than me, he has chronic respiratory illness from 9-11. My brain unconsciously said he's next. Let's just kind of grieve him now so he never have to feel this pain again.
Speaker 1:Is that a fear? Is that a sadness response, a fear response? I think it's a fear response.
Speaker 2:It's also just like a conditioned response, because I was taught and it was passed down through my lineage, I believe for a good reason to protect people when it needed to. It just doesn't serve a purpose. Now the message was I call it the great myth everybody leaves you, everybody hurts you. Protect your heart and always love a little less, yes. So always keep just the slightest amount of distance that maybe your partner or your friends or your coworkers, whatever it is because it's not just in romantic relationships that we can do this they might. Or your coworkers, whatever it is, because it's not just in romantic relationships that we can do this they might not even realize you're doing it, but you know there's this little bit of distance so that when that pain comes you're not going to be as devastated. And that's the myth, because it's not possible.
Speaker 1:Can you say that again? Everyone leaves you, everyone hurts you.
Speaker 2:Everyone hurts you. Protect your heart and always love a little less so that you basically have like the upper hand in the emotional department in your relationships.
Speaker 1:It's like being in middle school, when you're wondering is this girl like me as much as I like her? And you try to protect yourself because you don't want to let yourself like her more than you know what I mean. She likes you because you're going to be hurt. It is like middle school and the whole thing is a very immature. I don't mean to diminish it.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, it is. So I talk a lot about emotional maturity and emotional intelligence and all that kind of stuff, and it totally is a very immature way of being, because it's this fear, this innate fear. So we probably need a lot more time, but this goes back to childhood, emotional abandonment and the feelings that many of us I believe in this world that we're in have experienced. So it's either a parent dismissing you, devaluing you, not paying attention to you, working too much, whatever it is when you're a child that equates to death. It's about surviving In your brain it equates to physical death, so-.
Speaker 1:So there's a grief. Even that happens in some of the emotional abandonment stuff.
Speaker 2:I talk a lot about different types of grief, and that's one.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So my brain said, okay, Jeremy died. I was down and out. I was in bed for three months. My husband took care of my kids Thank God for him. So I was never going to let that happen again. I was never going to experience that threat again. So my brain went into classic defense mechanism to protect me and I say it tried to protect me while ravaging my soul.
Speaker 2:Like it literally just I felt so disconnected and I couldn't live like that. Because now I'm at a place in my recovery I'm 12 years sober where I need that emotional intimacy, I need that connection. And my husband and I never had it because of his PTSD, my anxiety disorder, so it really forced us into marriage counseling and because I really I was convinced I didn't love him and he said well, your brother just died, maybe that's playing a part. So we go to counseling and I realized it was all linked to this intense fear of loss that I felt in childhood.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well then, the next question that comes to my mind it's probably very unfair, and it's honestly why these workshops exist, because this is not.
Speaker 2:you can't cover all the ground in a podcast, right, you know it's like.
Speaker 1:but how did you begin to journey through the grief stage? You know you're talking about being in bed and disconnecting. You start the therapy and all that kind of stuff, and I would imagine it was a long process, like you know. But what did that look like Journey from grief to kind of coming alive again and allowing yourself to be vulnerable and be connected and to love and all those things?
Speaker 2:So again, this was like another divine intervention for me. Nothing that I've ever done in my life that has catapulted me into serious growth was ever really of my own doing so. Three months in I decide, okay, june, I love the summer I'm going to. I need to live again. Like I kind of realized that I had been cutting myself off from the sunlight of the spirit with people with connection with my sponsees, and I was showing up but I just wasn't really there and I said, no, I'm not going to do that. So I get out of bed and I get involved with my church and some service work and stuff like that. And two months later I fly to Seattle for a concert and I meet this group of people that I felt so connected to. It was Pearl Jam, which is my favorite band. We're all a bunch of wounded animals, I believe 45, 50-year-old Pearl Jam fans. We were attracted to that.
Speaker 1:You're like peeling back the layers of an onion. This Brooklyn girl moving to Colorado that loves Pearl Jam goes to Seattle. I mean you're coast to coast. It's like-.
Speaker 2:I'm all over the place. I'm all over the place, can't get rid of me.
Speaker 1:I love it.
Speaker 2:I love it.
Speaker 1:So you're Pearl Jam and you found this group that you just felt safe with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we found this group of people who actually, when I look back, we were all grieving, we were all in some kind of loss which, again back to childhood being a teenager listening to grunge music you know that music tapped into our pain, our trauma, all that. So I feel this connection and I say to myself why don't I feel this alive and this like connected to, like my soul and to other people, like I do at home, like I love my family, I love my husband? I just felt this disconnection in my real life, and especially with my husband, and that's what forced me, because then I come home and I say I think I might want a divorce because I don't think I love you. Wow, and what I learned, again going back to the story, what my I don't love you was really I'm afraid you're going to die. So that was-.
Speaker 1:Was it easier to almost connect with a group of strangers in that moment, of course, to find like it probably felt safer because you're like I may never see them. I mean it's like an easy, but it also sounds like something.
Speaker 2:There was something triggered in you too, though like there was something going on some kind, and my brother had died five months before and I believe he showed up and was like amanda, you don't have to continue this cycle of this generational dysfunction, like your children deserve better. You are the one right. I'm like there's a couple of one other in my family who's kind of like that, also in recovery, who's doing things differently, and a lot of my other cousins are as well. They're not, as I guess, verbal about it, but anyway, we are the generation you, me, a lot of people that are the chain breakers. So I feel like my brother kind of showed up and was like no, amanda, this can end. You have the power to end this. And so it felt very deep, it felt very spiritual to me. So that is what led me on this whole journey, this three-year-long journey of this excavation, finding out who I am.
Speaker 2:I spent a lot of time in nature. It was COVID Again, my husband respiratory illness. My kids were e-learners. We were home. We were like hunkered down for like a good year, and every other week I'd go out on a Friday and find a new place in Colorado to explore. I had just started this other 12-step program where I'm learning about emotional abandonment and I'm in therapy. Everything is just kind of coming together. I worked my 12 steps around my marriage. I just pulled out all the stops.
Speaker 1:I just did whatever. You went all in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did. I just pulled out every tool in my toolkit that I had and I just went harder and I feel very grateful for that and I think a lot of us in recovery have that I had and I just went harder and I and I feel very grateful for that and I think a lot of us in recovery have that survivor spirit where when the rubber meets the road, we show up you know, Um, and that really was. It was therapy marriage counseling, private therapy, a lot of time in meditation a lot of time out in nature.
Speaker 2:12 step recovery those that was kind of what I did that's you know.
Speaker 1:When I hear you say that, it's very similar to that, that's how I feel. Like those are the things. For me, meditation was not a part of my rhythms at all you know, we need enough for a long time nature. You know, all that stuff is like exactly how I experienced like getting grounded, and it's all stuff that I didn't, was not a part of my first half of life. I mean some, but not intentionally. Not like I'm going to go and experience this and be present to it, and that's a big deal.
Speaker 2:I didn't know what meditation was really when we got here. When I got here, I didn't know what spirituality really was. I knew what religion was, but I didn't really know what spiritual. I didn't know what the word humility really meant. I didn't know a lot right, I didn't know a lot, so this was like the best education that I never really asked for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, right here we are so talk about, just so, when we do these, I call them events, but they're really these experiences which, which could be four sessions long, five sessions, whatever Talk about a little bit of what do we do in those, because those are more of a deep dive into a lot of the stuff that we're talking about right now. Right, we'll talk about grief, we'll do some of that.
Speaker 2:But for someone listening or watching that wants to be a part of one of these events, that you do give us a little bit of a peek inside the window of what that might be like. Sure, so the one we're doing in June, it's going to be on Tuesday night from 6 to 7.30. And that is going to be a four-week series workshop. It's called Transform your Relationships by Healing your Grief. So it's going to be more of an interactive sort of engaging evening or like conversation. It's not going to be me standing up there talking at you.
Speaker 1:we're good, I really it's not a lecture you're coming to.
Speaker 2:I want to be like I want to be, like sitting down with you, just like with you.
Speaker 2:You know, um, going through this, my experience, I'll share some of my own, not too much, but it's going to be more about you and getting really honest and going in and saying, okay, okay, what grief am I maybe holding on to and how has this affected my relationship?
Speaker 2:So, really, the point of the whole workshop is to get you to a place of feeling safe and secure in your feelings and your emotions, so that you don't have to put up that wall, so that, no matter what happens, no matter what life throws your way, you can still stay connected to yourself and to others. And when I talk about relationships, I'm talking about with yourself as well, relationship to self, with others and to the universe, higher power, god, whatever you want to call it. So it's going to start probably we'll do like a little conversation, a little bit of sort of teaching, or me throwing out some ideas, some new concepts. Maybe that you haven't thought of different ways of coping, different ways of handling grief, different ways of looking at grief. I have a little bit of a different twist that I feel that it's like a gift, almost that like how do we use this pain right? Don't waste the pain.
Speaker 2:I say that a lot I like that, yeah, and then we'll have like a little bit of a writing exercise which will probably be private, I mean.
Speaker 2:So this is for anybody who wants to come, but we are looking for couples to come because I know my marriage suffered and I, truly I, have this real, deep belief that a lot of divorces are happening, a lot of separations are happening, because we don't know how to be emotionally intimate with each other and then when this big, painful event happens, it makes us close off even more Right and we're even more scared to go in. So some writing exercises to help you go deep into that, and then we'll end each session with a short meditation that is 100% aligned with what we've talked about, so that you can sort of embody and bring these concepts and like solidify them inside of you so that when you leave you're not just you're you're, you're taking all of this out with you into the world and hopefully you'll have some kind of transformation at the end of the four weeks.
Speaker 1:It's incredible I'm so excited about about this Um. You can go to valiantlivingcom slash events and it'll be on that page. Um. Will you have it on? Do you have it on your website or are you website?
Speaker 2:I'll have it on my website as well. It's my name amandamccoyflanagancom. I'll also have it on my link tree in my Instagram profile. You go to my bio and click that. There'll be a link there.
Speaker 1:We'll put it everywhere, so we'll find it, we'll put it in the show notes and all that stuff. I want you to speak to the person that might be listening that I don't know how to ask it, just right, but I think you know what I mean that downplays their grief, that doesn't have this like in their minds, this major traumatic event, and so they automatically self-select and say, well, this isn't for me, sure, whereas, like in my story, I have pretty significant trauma in my childhood that I ignored for a long time until people pointed out like, hey, that's actually trauma. And I was like, no, no, that's a. You know, when I hear about you losing a brother, I'm like, well, that's, that's legitimate trauma, right. But also what I experienced when I was a child, even though it wasn't a death, was trauma for me and shape who I am so long way of asking. Speak to that person who's listening, who's saying, well, I don't know that I have that kind of grief.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I say it in my book and I actually was talking to somebody recently about this as well that I could go through the same experience as you. Right, and this happens a lot in families, when siblings have the same experience and one of them is affected very deeply and one of them is like, yeah, whatever, that didn't really affect me. So the same event, and big or small, can affect two people very differently, so it doesn't really matter. The event doesn't matter as much as how it affected you and the story that you created about yourself and the world because of that event.
Speaker 1:I've never heard that before. Could you say that again? I just want to pause because I think that's really important. So it's not so much about the event as much as how it affected you Exactly, so we don't really have to try to decide.
Speaker 2:You don't need to judge it, you don't need to put a value or a judgment on it to say, well, this happened, so then I should be feeling this way. No, you feel however you feel, and that's okay, that's great.
Speaker 1:That's freeing to hear. Actually, I don't have to judge the event.
Speaker 2:You're allowed to grieve for two years because your goldfish died. If you want to Right you, know what I mean.
Speaker 2:If it shaped you and impacted how you're showing up in the world, yes, then that's what you have to focus on, that's what you have to honor and say this is where I need to grieve, this is what I need to grieve, and so grief can come in all. I mean, we touched on it a little bit, but grief can come in all shapes and sizes, all sorts of ways. I don't even want to say big and small, because what I might feel is small might be really big to you.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker 2:So for the people that have not suffered some major traumatic or sudden loss or you know abuse or you know anything like that, I can guarantee you, if you look hard enough, you will find that there is grief somewhere in your story, whether it's like for me I was talking recently. I've totally. I didn't talk about this until I was in this experience, doing this thing with this woman. My second-grade best friend moved away. She moved away. She was here one day and gone the next and it felt traumatic to me, I guess, because I wasn't told. It's this suddenness that gets me. But yeah, I'm still carrying that Sure From seven years old, eight years old. That is still on my heart.
Speaker 1:You felt abandoned. That was emotional abandonment.
Speaker 2:Yeah and no explanation. It almost felt like as I was a kid, maybe I didn't deserve the explanation, or maybe they thought I wouldn't understand, I don't know. I don't know, but there was no processing around a lot, and that's just. I feel like that's why we're our and that's just I feel like that's why we're our age group is very much into this work because it just no fault of our parents, it's just not how it was Right.
Speaker 1:Culturally, society-wise, it just was different. You didn't think about processing that stuff with your kids. It was almost like it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it wasn't a thing yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, Amanda, thank you so much for being on the episode today. Super interesting conversation. I can't wait for just all of our friends and alumni and everyone to hear more from you. Again. We'll link to the event. I want people to come and how many people can we take, Because there's a limit, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not sure exactly what we said. 14 or?
Speaker 1:16. We just had the boss walk in the room. Yeah, the boss is over here, so I'm looking over there, If you're like.
Speaker 2:why is she looking?
Speaker 1:over there. Melissa is here. She's peering over. She's now judging our conversation.
Speaker 2:Judging me, did I make a mistake?
Speaker 1:Well, we're going to link everywhere People can find this event. We want you to be a part of it and thank you so much for sharing your story with us.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. It was an honor and a privilege.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Well, we appreciate you listening to this episode of the Valiant Living Podcast and our hope is that it helped you feel educated, encouraged and even empowered on your journey towards peace and freedom. If we can serve you or your loved one in any way, we'd love to have a conversation with you. You can call 720-756-7941 or email admissions at valiantlivingcom. At Valiant Living, we treat the whole person so you not only survive, but you thrive in the life you deserve. And finally, if this episode has been helpful to you, it would mean a lot to us if you'd subscribe and even share it with your friends and family. You can also follow along with us on Instagram and Facebook by simply searching Valiant Living. Thanks again for listening and supporting the Valiant Living podcast. We'll see.
