Valiant Living Podcast
Unlocking Healing: Michael Simms on Internal Family Systems
What if you could understand and heal the deepest parts of yourself that have been shaped by trauma and addiction? Join us on the Valiant Living Podcast as we welcome back Michael Simms, a dedicated therapist with over 11 years of sobriety. With a heartfelt journey from the service industry to becoming the Director of Outpatient Services for the Meadows in Denver, Michael shares how the tragic loss of his cousin and his sister's struggle with addiction fueled his passion for therapy. His story is one of resilience, recovery, and unwavering commitment to helping others find healing.
In our conversation, we explore the transformative power of Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy, delving into advanced clinical modalities like Polyvagal Theory and NARM. Michael explains how recognizing and compassionately addressing the different parts of ourselves formed through trauma can lead to profound healing. We discuss the importance of understanding clients' nervous systems and how this knowledge can guide them through states of fight, flight, or dissociation to a place of relaxation and safety. The emphasis on compassion within IFS therapy is a crucial element, shedding light on the necessity of integrating even the less pleasant parts of oneself for effective recovery.
Further, we delve into the concept of the "core self" within IFS therapy, contrasting it with the subpersonalities developed as defense mechanisms. Michael highlights the eight C's—such as connection, confidence, and compassion—that help bring forth the core self, free from past burdens. Through heartfelt personal anecdotes and professional insights, Michael illustrates how addressing childhood wounds, navigating inner conflicts, and embracing community support play pivotal roles in fostering growth and emotional resilience. This episode offers an illuminating look at the journey of healing addiction and perfectionism with IFS, providing listeners with valuable insights and hope.
What if you could understand and heal the deepest parts of yourself that have been shaped by trauma and addiction? Join us on the Valiant Living Podcast as we welcome back Michael Simms, a dedicated therapist with over 11 years of sobriety. With a heartfelt journey from the service industry to becoming the Director of Outpatient Services for the Meadows in Denver, Michael shares how the tragic loss of his cousin and his sister's struggle with addiction fueled his passion for therapy. His story is one of resilience, recovery, and unwavering commitment to helping others find healing.
In our conversation, we explore the transformative power of Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy, delving into advanced clinical modalities like Polyvagal Theory and NARM. Michael explains how recognizing and compassionately addressing the different parts of ourselves formed through trauma can lead to profound healing. We discuss the importance of understanding clients' nervous systems and how this knowledge can guide them through states of fight, flight, or dissociation to a place of relaxation and safety. The emphasis on compassion within IFS therapy is a crucial element, shedding light on the necessity of integrating even the less pleasant parts of oneself for effective recovery.
Further, we delve into the concept of the "core self" within IFS therapy, contrasting it with the subpersonalities developed as defense mechanisms. Michael highlights the eight C's—such as connection, confidence, and compassion—that help bring forth the core self, free from past burdens. Through heartfelt personal anecdotes and professional insights, Michael illustrates how addressing childhood wounds, navigating inner conflicts, and embracing community support play pivotal roles in fostering growth and emotional resilience. This episode offers an illuminating look at the journey of healing addiction and perfectionism with IFS, providing listeners with valuable insights and hope.
Well, hey, everyone. Welcome to the Valiant Living podcast, where we educate, encourage and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom. I'm your host, Drew Powell, and I'm a grateful alumni of the Valiant Living program. Valiant Living offers hope and transformational change to men and their families struggling with addiction and mental health challenges. So on this podcast you'll hear from the Valiant team, as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at 720-756-7941. Or you can email admissions at valiantlivingcom. We'd love to have a conversation with you, but for now, let's dive into today's episode. Well, Michael Sims, thanks for being back on the podcast again.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Drew, pal. It's great to be here with you, buddy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude, so this is your second go at the Valiant Living Podcast. We'll actually link to your first one because we're going to jump right into the content today. But the first one you tell a little bit more of your story and your background and all that good stuff. But for those who don't know you could you just give us a little overview of your background? How did you get into this industry? All that fun stuff?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so obviously I'm Michael Sims. I'm a man in long-term recovery. I've been celebrated about 11 and a half years about a month ago, so it's been an amazing life since then, but we were talking before.
Speaker 1:It feels almost like two lives. I mean 11 and a half years is a long time but it feels like two, an A and B part of life, right.
Speaker 2:It does. It does like pre and post in a lot of ways. And this was a second career for me. You know I worked in the service industry, I was a bartender and then, when I got sober I just didn't know what to do with myself. And you know I was lucky enough to land a gig as an overnight and just took off from there, became a therapist and now I'm a LCSW and LAC certified sex addictions therapist and a certified internal family systems therapist and you know right now the director of outpatient services for the Meadows here in Denver, which is just a fantastic organization.
Speaker 1:Nationwide right Organization yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we have about nine outpatient centers all over the country and nine or ten residentials, but been around for 48 years. Just an amazing company, and really grateful to be a part of it.
Speaker 1:So I was actually reading on. I went to the website of the Meadows and was kind of looking at what you're doing, all that kind of stuff, and you mentioned in your bio just this idea that you getting into this field was not just professional but also very, very personal. Before we jump into the IFS stuff today which I'm really, really excited to talk about with you, tell us why that's true for you, both personal and professional with you.
Speaker 2:Tell us why that's true for you, both personal and professional. Yeah, I mean it's been a personal journey for me in a lot of ways. About two years before I got sober, my cousin Adam passed away heroin overdose. My sister went to treatment several times before I finally got sober for Oxycontin addiction and it's like been around like me forever and I remember kind of getting finally getting the gift of going to go to my own treatment, that I was finding out about all these skills, these tools, these resources, this community of people in recovery that I had no idea about and you know I really wanted to, you know, help other people find this as well. I mean, for me it was one of those things when I finally did go to treatment. I was only going to go for 30 days but, um, pretty quickly I was.
Speaker 2:I was like, wow, this is pretty amazing, like I don't hope I'm dead every right now, and I don't, I don't hate myself every morning and you know I don't have that like loathing going throughout the day, which had been the first time in over a decade that I hadn't felt that way. So it's it's, you know, really wanting to bring people into this way of life and, you know, help them find their own healing and recovery and just get unstuck, because I certainly needed a lot of help myself and you know I just got a passion for this work. I love therapy, I love working with people and I love learning about treatment modalities. I think all my friends will tell you pretty quickly that I'm a pretty big dork about therapy stuff. Geek out on it.
Speaker 1:Geek out on it.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's become a passion of mine just to, to learn all this stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, I'm one that's very grateful that you chose to go into this. You know you were here on in the on the leadership team, uh, when I was here at Valiant and just I was telling you before we started just such fond memories, so, so grateful for your leadership in this space. And then it really is fun to see you kind of take on this, this new role at the Meadows, and obviously you and Michael Dineen, our, our CEO here and founder, have maintained a great relationship. You guys just didn't know IFS event together here at Valiant, which I love seeing that. I love seeing that, and I don't know if that's unique to this space, but it's so cool when people move on to something else, when there can just um, there can remain the love and the support and the compassion and all that kind of stuff, and you two are still super, super close, which is really fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm super grateful for that guy and all he's taught me been a mentor of mine for a long time and so you so you know leaving, but then coming back to doing that presentation with him a couple weeks ago is pretty amazing yeah, I did have a couple people on staff here.
Speaker 1:When they heard that I was interviewing you they were like you need to just do a bait and switch and then do an intervention with him.
Speaker 2:Why did you leave? And all this kind of stuff like no, that's not.
Speaker 1:That's what this podcast is about, so you're definitely missed I appreciate that, but I have the most respect.
Speaker 2:I have like the utmost respect for the work that they do here and yeah you know, I know jill and everyone over here is just killing it um definitely miss this place.
Speaker 1:But yeah, you know, yeah, is it kind of?
Speaker 2:I know you're just back here a couple weeks ago for the event, but walking in it's got to feel kind of surreal kind of feels surreal, kind of feels like I should take a left instead of the right and go back to my old office or something Right.
Speaker 1:Someone's in there right now. Yeah, talk a little bit about your role. What are you? What are you doing there at the at the Meadows now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know I'm overseeing all like operations, clinical and business over there for for the Denver office. Okay so, director of outpatient services, we have an amazing rockstar clinical director who's really pushing the clinical team, Jeanette Kentz. Um, she was up at some in women's recovery for ever as a clinical director. We got her to come down, Um, and I'm just providing that oversight, giving some supervision to some clinicians, keeping the census up and then doing all that boring business stuff behind the scenes, stuff that has to be done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah cleaning bathrooms and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:Well, you've had a long career already in this space, so you're probably like you know, it's probably refreshing on some, in some regard, to have a little change of scenery, you know, and do something different for a minute, you know it is.
Speaker 2:It is. You know I always love like direct clinical work and, um, you know I have a passion for supervision in this. But uh, it's really been great to be with an organization like the Meadows that have been around for 48 years and kind of learn the other aspects of this work.
Speaker 1:So you're talking about geeking out over different just modalities and stuff like that, before we talk IFS. You've been over a decade in this field. Like what are some of the big changes, advancements? What I'm just curious, from like when you started to now, like what are things? You're like man, I wish I'd have known this 10 years ago. Or there's some new developments. Is there anything like that in the field?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I've been really excited to just see how like clinically minded and professional the field has become come, you know, I think starting out, you know most programs were like very 12 step focused and definitely a place for that love, that 12 step work and everything like that where you're seeing people really, you know, starting to practice and understand some pretty advanced clinical and trauma treatments. I see a lot of polyvagal throughout the field, which I think is just amazing.
Speaker 1:What is that?
Speaker 2:Polyvagal is a Stephen Porges and Deb Dana but it's called the science of safety. But it's all about someone's nervous system and how do? You work with a client's nervous system. If they're in ventral vagal, which is that relaxed, connected. If they're in their sympathetic nervous system, which would be fight or flight.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Or the dorsal vagal, which would be dissociation, freeze, shutdown, and helping people understand their own nervous system and where they're at and how that affects their mental health how it?
Speaker 2:affects their processing these sort of things. So some of these modalities, yeah, it's pretty amazing. And then just more work that we're seeing with, like Lawrence Heller and NARM and RESMA, with racialized trauma and epigenetics. It's just cool seeing all these advanced clinical modalities. And then the other thing that I'm seeing right now that I'm just so blown away with is we're seeing a lot of like facilities finally picking up that Medicaid you know, picking up that Medicaid payer source, a lot of residentials opening up and a lot of really good treatment centers. You know it's been one of those things that I've been in the field for a long time and, you know, access to care just hasn't been there for a lot of people.
Speaker 2:Right, you know it's been really people only with commercial insurance or only with like disposable income that have been able to get like really good treatment.
Speaker 1:So they're starting to recognize the need here and and and providing for it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah. And so watching these new treatment centers open up that are just like, really clinically minded and, you know, just improving that access to care and opening up recovery to more people, that is really.
Speaker 1:that's great to great to hear. Now I want to. I want to dive into the internal family system stuff, which I know is is you've taught on this, you've studied this. There's no way in the next few minutes on this podcast that we can explore all the depths of this, but it's been something that has been really important in my recovery journey.
Speaker 1:Um, acknowledging um, parts work, parts of self. That's been something that I use literally daily in my life, like acknowledging a part of me that fill in the blank right, and so that has been really freeing, even with me in addiction, recognizing that there's a part of me and our mutual friend Steven Spinotto did a lot of work with me on this. When I would say I just feel blank, and he was like, well, a part of work with me on this. When I would say I just feel blank, and he was like well, a part of you feels that way. And so I've actually started hearing my kids we use it in our everyday language so much that I heard my 11-year-old from the back seat say, hey, a part of me wants to whatever, and I was like, wow, she doesn't know anything about IFS.
Speaker 1:but she's starting and I know like wow, she doesn't know anything about IFS but she's starting, so and I know that's just one facet of it. But for those listening that have never heard of this, how would you kind of explain what internal family systems is?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I love that.
Speaker 2:And I mean that's such a beautiful intervention. Just to start using the language of parts. Um, yeah, but you know, ifs is a trauma modality about I think 40 years ago. At this point Last year was like 40th anniversary of IFS, so it's been around for a little while with Dick Schwartz, but it is. It believes in this idea of multiplicity that we all have parts of us that are formed over our lifetime. And you know, the best definition I've ever heard is from Ann Cinco, who's a head trainer for IFS is a part is when injury becomes identity.
Speaker 2:So we have this part of us that you know, something happened to, got burdened in some way or sustained some injury and decided it needed to show up a little bit differently. And it was formed and interacted with the world. And you know we're all full of parts. The example I always give is you know, people have that relationship in high school or college and they um, they, like you know, get their heart broken and they're like never again close off just a little bit and that's like a part being formed, you know where.
Speaker 2:We just want to be a little more guarded. We're just not able to open up quite as much and we just accumulate these throughout life, especially through our traumatic moments, and in IFS we're looking at bringing awareness to these parts, bringing compassion to them because this is really a compassion-based trauma treatment and helping them release these burdens and bring forward the self. And the self is the, the, the. The self is something that everyone has. It has all the skills, all the tools it needs.
Speaker 2:We just need to let go of some of these wounds. And that's where I'd say IFS differentiates from a lot of different other like modalities. A lot of treatment modalities are those deficit, deficit models, so like behavioral therapies, and there you know, if you just have enough skills, if you just have enough you know interpersonal things, just enough coping mechanisms, you'll be okay, whereas IFS just as a model of constriction, so it's, can we release you know these things and let our true self forward.
Speaker 1:Well, you said a word a minute ago that was huge for me in this, which was compassion. Yeah, talk a little bit more about that when it comes to recognizing these parts, because a lot of the work I'm sure that you do, that I've done is I'm uncovering these parts, that some of them are very unpleasant. They're like I'm almost acknowledging and admitting for the first time that I've got some of these shadow side parts of me that desire certain things that are really shameful, but it's then met pretty quickly with a lot of compassion in this modality. Can you talk a little bit about how that works?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and addiction is always like the classic example. You know, in in recovery we're taught to kind, of hate our addiction and push it away and you know if it's the cause of all of our ills, right and push it away, and you know it's the cause of all of our ills.
Speaker 1:Right, right right.
Speaker 2:But you know IFS truly believes that all parts are there for a reason. They're trying to help and they have a positive intention for you. And I work with clients all the time and it could be really hard to bring compassion to some of these parts. When we do like we're able to realize like what they're trying to do for us, you know they're the only parts in their system that could shut the rest of them down. That could stop the negative self-talk, that could stop the shaming it's the only thing that could turn the volume down for a lot of people and going with compassion towards the addiction and then going with compassion towards that negative self-talk, we're actually able to start working with them and then lessening that polarization. And it is all about compassion and care Because if we just hate and push them away, these parts will never really change.
Speaker 1:Right, and that was one thing that you guys helped me with, especially around addiction, but also anxiety, which it was this kind of revelation for me that it's not really about killing off my anxiety and not having anxiety anymore, which, if that was the case, then we've failed miserably because that's not happened, at least in my story, but now to hold a place for it.
Speaker 1:But I really related to what you're saying because you're right.
Speaker 1:Some of these parts, especially the I don't know how you would say, but the darker parts they have caused so much wreckage and damage for ourselves and the people that we love that it's easy to form some bitterness and hatred towards them. Right, Because we just see the damage that it's done. But one thing that you guys helped me do a little bit and this is where I don't know enough about IFAS to know if this is how it works but there was so much reparenting and childhood work that we did as a part of it as well that kind of took me back to days of more innocence, where some of the compassion was around. Hey, this is who I had to become to survive, and that was the only way I could get to compassion around some of these things, because it was like, okay, Um, not that it wasn't my responsibility, but there was some things that just weren't my fault. Like they, I, I developed these as surviving the world.
Speaker 1:So there's a question in here somewhere. But there is a connection between going back in childhood, right, and is that a part of IFS?
Speaker 2:It's a big part of IFS and it's called like the healing steps. It's the unburdening process. You know where we do have to go back to those younger parts of ourselves and absolutely understand why we had to develop this way. You know, ifs truly believes that we come by all of our like, woundings and parts. Honestly, no one's just born defective. With all these, you know like defense mechanisms and you know like addiction already on board.
Speaker 2:It's formed like over, you know, over our lifetime parts. Really understanding what they went through and why they had to form in these ways, you know, really sets the stage for what IFS does next, which is start unburdening that shame letting go these wounds or letting go these negative beliefs that we had to pick up because of what happened, and from there we actually start reclaiming those gifts we had to set down. You know we bring back that, you know adventurousness, that trusting people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know because a big part of IFS is setting down the shame setting down, you know, these negative beliefs. And then what did you have to drop when you were six years old and dad left?
Speaker 1:You know what?
Speaker 2:about yourself, did you lose and how could you reclaim that now and bring that back into your life, and it's a beautiful modality.
Speaker 1:So it really is, because I actually I got goosebumps when you just said that last part, because I just remember moments of having such sadness for little andrew, for certain things and and then the. The thing that felt really crazy is when, over time, I developed a little bit of gratitude even for like these, really these parts that helped me get through. So not only did I turn the corner from being so pissed that they were there well, first it was just acknowledgement, like I didn't even know they were there you know like before I came into treatment.
Speaker 2:I would have argued with you that I had anxiety I would have said I like okay, maybe depression, maybe whatever I don't have anxiety.
Speaker 1:I'm a leader, I'm forward focused, I'm a.
Speaker 2:You know all this stuff, my ego, all that entitlement.
Speaker 1:And then I get here and I think it was dr martin they put me through the assessments and they were like bro, you're like off the charts anxiety and I'm like what?
Speaker 1:so there was that part where I had to first just acknowledge that it even exists. Then you go through all the different stages of grief and anger, but then it's like you guys help lead us to such a place of compassion, but then even like gratitude and saying, hey, thank you for helping me survive, I'm still alive. I don't need you in that way anymore, but I can acknowledge your role in it.
Speaker 2:That's beautiful. I'm glad you experienced that because that's exactly what we're going after with IFS to get to such a stage of understanding with our parts to where we feel grateful, even though there's been pain in the past. And I I liken it to. You know that guy you see at a 12 step meeting.
Speaker 2:He's like I'm a grateful recovering alcoholic and everyone in the room's like but there does become a point when, like in recovery, where you do become grateful for your addiction because it has led to so much like abundance and amazing things in your life, because it's allowed you to help other people, only because you went through those things. So I think it's a stage a lot of us get to like in recovery, but IFS, it's just in that moment can you understand and bring enough compassion forward to really like find that gratitude and like thank you addiction for showing up and taking care of me and even suicidal parts. That's one of the hardest parts for a lot of clinicians to work with and IFS is, you know. Of course we need to make sure people are safe and right, you know, but really working and bringing compassion to that suicidal part because it's trying to help also yeah, I remember Steven would.
Speaker 1:Would reference the song the hello darkness, my old friend, song and he actually performed that song before.
Speaker 1:But there's such beauty and truth into that, like recognizing like the darkest. But it's my friend at the same time and I, you know, I don't obviously don't always live in that place. But there's a beauty of IFS is it's cyclical, right? It's like's like okay, when I start feeling the anger, bitterness or loneliness, sadness, whatever towards my addiction, I can kind of I have the tools and that's a big part of what what valiant does, what the meadows does. The work we do is helping give people tools to know how to navigate when these parts come up or anxiety comes up, like how do I go back and reparent?
Speaker 2:and it's just, it's like a cyclical process and it's not like an arrival of like I'm always in a place of gratitude around my addiction no yeah but I, but you guys gave me the tools to know how to, to work my way back towards that which is which is cool and it's that like beautiful intervention you talked about, like your kid practicing that day. It's you know you start by naming hey, there's a part of me that's really judging, like my addiction right now.
Speaker 2:I get why that's coming up and hear what you're trying to do and you know you don't have to take over right now, and and you just spoke to one of my big beliefs, like the goal of treatment is self-efficacy us being able to do the work for ourselves. So you know we're here to help you during this. You know acute treatment episode, but you know treatment has to end and then, like, what's, what are you able to do?
Speaker 1:to like work with yourself to be a self efficacious in your recovery moving forward and I'm imagining the parts could be numerous, right Like I don't know how many this person can have but there's probably. Yeah, but then you also mentioned core self. Yeah, could you expound a little bit on the idea of core self, as it relates to all the parts as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, self is. It's an interesting concept and you know books have been written about this. In IFS, the elusive self is one of them that comes to mind. But the self is that core that we all have. It's not a part. Parts are formed and you know, as defense mechanisms, the way we throughout life. But everyone is born with a self, you know, and a lot of times with with IFS, we talk about the eight C's, you know. Do you feel connected? Do you feel confident? Do you feel compassionate? Do you feel curious? You know, and those start eliciting that, that self. But you know, the self is the part of us that does have all the skills and tools. It doesn't have an agenda, it just is.
Speaker 2:And it's not like reacting to the world around us. It is. It is acting and it's the part of us that's supposed to lead and you know I always think of you, know those moments you have when all your needs are met, or you know like you're out in nature with your family or whatever and you kind of lose track of time and you're just connected with them, like those are all self moments we have throughout our lives, those moments where things just seem to happen.
Speaker 1:Are they like the pure? The purest moments is like when I think core self is it. Is it like me when I don't have all the stuff like me at my purest form? Or my understanding that Correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's you at you, at at any of us, at, like you know who we really are at our core but not being ruled by our needs and our desires and agendas and wanting to control everything, because those are all parts coming up. It's the part of us that could just be present and they've talked about it through different spiritual traditions, buddha, self and all these sort of things. But really that's the point of IFS is to unburden these parts and allow us to bring more self-energy forward so we could just connect. So ultimately that's kind of the goal is to unburden these parts and allow us to bring more self energy forward.
Speaker 1:Gotcha. So ultimately that's kind of the goal is to get to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and, like you know, they say there's only one skill in IFS and that's connection to self. So it's, can you like, can you unblend from a lot of these parts and connected with the self, the part of you that's supposed to lead, that doesn't have to carry all the old wounds around? That intuitively knows the answers. I always think of the ninth step promises in AA as kind of like a good way of kind of talking about self. We intuitively know how to do things we didn't before.
Speaker 1:Right, that's cool. All right, let's go ready to go a layer deeper.
Speaker 2:I love talking to you about this stuff, man, because it's so interesting and you're just a wealth of.
Speaker 1:I even told you before I sent over questions like you don't need any of this stuff.
Speaker 2:I'm just going to feed them and you're? You just riff on it.
Speaker 1:All right. So IFS talks about subpersonalities, yep Specifically in addiction. How does that play?
Speaker 2:What are those? How does that play a role and how they differ from the parts? Yeah, and a lot of ways. Like the parts are these sub personalities, but the sub personalities are kind of describing, you know, how the parts do have like a emotional range. It really is like having, you know, you know, little people or little parts inside our brain or inside of us, because our, our addictive part or acting out part can get angry, it can feel really sad, it can feel hurt. You know it has a has a range of how it can like, feel and show up and they are like little sub personalities that aren't really us and that's why we're always on blending from these but, but the parts do have almost a complete personality inside themselves in a lot of ways as you get to know them.
Speaker 2:And to answer your previous question, there's not an infinite number of parts, but there could be a lot of parts.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, well, it's interesting because and again, maybe I'm applying this wrong, so please correct me but there's times when someone gets so angry or there's rage and they say something that they don't mean or they say like they lash out and that can be super hurtful. But isn't it true that it also can be true that they really don't mean that? That's an angry part of them that came up? Now, getting that back and retracing your steps on that can be more difficult and sometimes, once it's said, it's hard to erase. But it is true that that's not necessarily how you really feel coming out. It's just an angry part, subpersonality that is reacting in that moment.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. And that's something as therapists we always have to remember and our clients have to remember, is a part of this person is angry. Right now, a part of this person is lashing out. It's not the whole person, right, you know. It's not their core self, right? This is a part that's hurt, that's showing up, trying to protect itself, sure, and in a way trying to help, yeah, and you know that's why us therapists have to do a lot of our own work to hold that space. But you know that's it is like, you know, when we see these strong emotions, when we see these reactionary parts there, that's just what they're, they're apart.
Speaker 2:And they're trying to help this person right now in their own way, and it could be pretty scary to be on the other side of that, yeah.
Speaker 1:But it's, it's. It's not you, you know their core self and it's not them at their yeah highest and wisest, right, right, yeah, well, said well, and I think it it's hard in the heat of the moment like this, but I think it does help with some empathy and compassion if you realize this in yourself. But then you can also apply it to the people in your life, that your loved ones, that where you can just like hold space for them to have that part you know it's like, which is, I mean, very difficult to do when these are you know, but at least I think, with the understanding of this and you can start applying it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it helps have a little compassion for the people around you it can, and I mean that's where such little interventions as, as you know, learning how to speak for a part, not from a part, in our relationships.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that. Yeah, for a part, not from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I have a part of me that feels this way, instead of like I'm angry at you, right? So just start speaking for our parts instead of from our parts. It could just create that degree of separation for the person listening and for the person kind of sending that message. Yeah, so that's one of the skills that we teach people. All the time. It's like, okay, a part of you feels this way, a part of you feels this way, let's speak from that part, not for that.
Speaker 2:Let's speak for that part, not from that part.
Speaker 1:That's so helpful for a guy like me who I am super emotional and I'm all or nothing and everything is to the mat. It's everyone this. Are you always that? That's my go-to language. Like I my feelings, I feel them really big and it's super helpful for me to apply that to to actually stop using that language of well, a bunch of people feel this way or whatever.
Speaker 1:It's like no, that two people, you know like I'll correct myself all the time like hey, it's not as big, but in that same thing, those, the to identify those parts helps me not lose myself in the, in the kind of the grandeur of the emotion, of the moment, of like. This isn't all of me, this isn't you know it's like it's it's super helpful modality.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we we make a differentiation in IFS between, like, becoming blended with a part and that's when we're barely able to get any space and being flooded. You know clients get flooded with parts all the time you know, we get flooded with parts and it's so hard.
Speaker 1:Takes over, takes over.
Speaker 2:And it's. It's so hard to get a little bit of separation and you know, just kind of gauging where a client is and understanding that that can happen and finding grace for yourself Because you know, going back to what I've been talking about, you know this part that's flooding this person, or flooding us, is trying to help. It's trying to help in its own way and the only way it's ever learned how to yeah, so good, dude.
Speaker 1:All right, let's talk about parts when it comes to healing healing the wounded part. So we recognize there's and this is a lot what happens in addiction recovery and therapy and whatever but once we find these parts that were really wounded, what does it look like as far as next steps and to begin to heal those wounded parts?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and you know we have the three different types of parts. We have the two protectors, which are the managers and the firefighters, and those are the ones we get to know first. Those are the ones you know who are our perfectionists, our strivers. You know our acting out parts, our shutdown, our suicidal parts. These are parts that have a job, that learned to show up in certain ways and they could be burdened, gain trust to allow us to start talking to these exiled parts, which are our young, wounded parts, you know, and start building safety and holding that compassion for them. Yeah, so we could really witness what they went through, really understand what it was like for them, and start doing similar, that in inner child work, like show up for those parts, um, as as they were not shown up for at the time, as we were not shown up for at the time.
Speaker 2:There's all these woundings we have as kids that our parents or guardians or whoever well-intentioned they were just missed. No one makes it through childhood unscathed, freud says. And at that time a parent can repair that, a parent can show up and and mend that wound. But as we get later in life, like no one could mend that wound but us. We have to go inside and do that work ourself.
Speaker 1:Ourself has to go in and show up for ourself, because I have really great, well-intentioned parents Like, really, you know, my parents are awesome. Super hard for me to go back to my childhood and find any fault with what they did right, because I just because I felt super lucky, super blessed, whatever. But then, like you said, everybody has got something right and my kids will, you know that's the reality.
Speaker 1:It's like for sure you know that's the reality. It's like for sure you know, um, but I remember walking around this complex on a break or lunch. Anytime I had a chance and just literally talking to my like talking out people in this office building, I thought I was nuts. But just talking out loud to myself, to, to my inner child, to that absolutely andrew the little boy in reassuring him that adults are in charge.
Speaker 1:You're gonna be okay. You don't have to freak out, you don't have to panic. You know over it sometimes is over little stuff like the guys in here. You know they were making fun of me yesterday because they were remembering when I threw such a fit when I didn't get my phone back. I'm sure you've never dealt with ever.
Speaker 2:I may have done the same thing when I was in training.
Speaker 1:But it's just like we're grasping for little parts of control and wherever we can get them and you know. So I kind of lost my cool over that when I was here and they were poking fun and laughing at me. It would be things like that where I just have to be like hey, buddy, yeah it's okay, it is yeah, relax it's.
Speaker 2:It's that time when, uh, therapists have a really annoying thing they do. We're like well, this is a great opportunity for you to work on your distressed heart skills.
Speaker 1:You guys make everything part of the therapy. You're just like oh man, I don't know, I want what I want.
Speaker 1:This is not therapy time this is a great opportunity for you to just sit with these feelings and work through and take care of yourself well, I will say and I've heard you say this before too, so I feel comfortable doing this but a big part of coming to a treatment or rehab anything like that is the opportunity to work through stuff outside of therapeutic room. And people ask me all the time what was the best part of 90 days here? And I would oftentimes, and I I had an amazing experience with the therapists, with all the clinicians, the housing, all that. Sometimes it was literally that it was sitting in my room, being in this place, having not having my usual unhealthy escapes to turn to and just battling through in community, by the way, it's why you guys put us in housing you know, with other people to.
Speaker 1:You know I could talk to people about it. Now it wasn't the people I wanted to talk to at first, you know, it was like you guys wouldn't let me talk to the people I wanted to talk to, but it was because I would use those people. You're like, you know.
Speaker 1:I think Jill was the one that told me like Drew, you, you smoke people like you'll use people, so no you can't call those people, but that was a big part of of the therapy is what you just said was just learning to how to live, how to power through those emotions and then deal with it in a in a healthy way.
Speaker 2:No, you're exactly right, and that's that is, I think, the special sauce for a lot of treatment. You know, we I think clinicians like here in so many places provide amazing therapy and it really is all about the container. You know what, what you hear in the therapy room, what you hear about in group therapy like it could be powerful. But what can really be powerful is that conversation you have with, like your bunk mate at like 11 PM, when you're like just beat up and missing your wife and missing your kids, and you know that conversation where you help each other show up through and look at something completely different. Those could be life altering. And if you could just hold this container where you have a group of people who keep showing up for each other in different ways and keep helping each other gain perspective, like that's that self-efficacy, that's that real growth, that's that change that I think really can be sustainable.
Speaker 1:Um well, a lot of guys push back on, even just cause you mentioned it on the, on the roommate thing right. I don't want a roommate. Well, well, cause it's for me. My, my default was isolate Absolutely, and I tell guys all the time who are considering coming in. I'm like I hope you get a roommate. And it may surprise you, this guy might be totally different from you, totally different background. You think you have nothing in common and by the end it's like this guy's your brother.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And part of the most powerful thing of being in therapy and treatment is those moments of like hey, I, I can't be alone right now, my roommate's there, but I'm really wrestling and struggling. And then you have someone to open up to and that or they can tell hey man, something's off, are you good? And that can be some of the most powerful moments.
Speaker 2:It can, even those little ones like you know all of y'all just jumping in a car and driving to a meeting and go into like a late night diner afterwards and laughing. You know, those are the things that stick with people and help them have these reparative experiences and absolutely everyone.
Speaker 2:I mean. Isolation and addiction are synonymous in so many different ways and you know we have to force people into community a lot of times. Yeah, and if you could actually help someone get integrated in the community and start having some of those experiences outside the therapy room, like it's a big deal.
Speaker 1:All right, so I've got a. I've got a bunch more questions here on IFS, but we might just have to make this like a series or something Cause I cause. I love this topic. I've got. We talked about compassion already. Uh, what about? So? What about conflict Conflict between the different subpersonalities when they start, and how resolving this conflict can aid in the recovery process?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a great question because, like, our system is just always in conflict and IFS, we call this polarizations.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And this is a term used in family systems work that was kind of brought into the IFS. But we always have two parts that are polarized with each other, that are fighting against each other. One of the classic examples we get is we look at addiction as a whole system of parts instead of just one part, and the system of parts is the polarization and the exile. So there is the acting out part, the part that uses substances, the part that you know, the part that does all the addictive things that it can do the firefighter part, but it's almost always polarized with a manager.
Speaker 2:that's a perfectionist, that's a striver. You know, if I just go to enough meetings, if I just show up this way, if I just make everyone love, love me, if I just go to church every sunday and you know, become like read the bible every night.
Speaker 2:If I just get five percent body fat, it's just like push, push, push, push, push, you know. So we go, we're starting this part, this perfectionist part, and as soon as that becomes unsustainable, when it becomes too much to like handle that's the addictive part comes in and takes over and puts out the fire and lets us actually like breathe. Yeah, you know, but when that happens, this perfectionist park it's even more angry at the addiction part and like goes farther and becomes more extreme.
Speaker 2:The addiction part has to become more extreme, to like put out that fire and they hate each other. This, this idealized, perfectionist recovery part, and this, this like addiction part, that keep fighting and pushing themselves and the problem, what's even worse with this, is every time one of them, you know, fails or isn't able to complete what it needs to, more shame is built and it's dumped down on this exile that that's there, that's powering all of it the exile that thinks that we're defective or we're not enough or whatever it might be.
Speaker 2:So it's just more and more evidence of this, and it is actually in IFS where we're able to bring all of these parts to the table. You know, there's an exercise we actually do where we sit these multiple parts at each end of the table and we start hearing.
Speaker 2:you know what they're trying to do for us and what they're understanding and, like the you know spoiler alert, what we almost always find is that the parts want the same thing for us the addiction parts and the perfectionist part. They want us to be loved, they want us to be safe, they want us to be connected. They're just doing it in their own ways that they found, you know, like because of woundings, because of hurt.
Speaker 1:Just different ways of trying to get the same thing.
Speaker 2:Different ways to try to get the same thing. And so when you're able to have that like really magic moment where the system's like huh, like we really are going after the same thing, we really both want, you know, drew to be just connected and safe and loved, you know we're just going about a completely other, completely opposite ways. I mean that's where you see those really lessening and then then you gain that trust to start working with the exile, that part that thinks they're defective or broken or just, you know, one of those unfortunate few that can't get honest or whatever it is like the negative core belief we have on that and after unburdening that you can really just lessen that whole system.
Speaker 1:Yeah, are there any misuses or challenges that you've seen with IFS that you could speak to as well, like where you see it being used poorly or weaponized? I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't have anything in mind that.
Speaker 1:I'm leading you towards. I'm just curious if there's if there's things or cautions for us if we're, if we're using this modality.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you know, I think there's. You know I wish, I wish there was a silver bullet or you know something that worked with every single person. And you know I've worked with several people who IFS just gets a little too much for them and they haven't really been able to sink in and build relationships with the parts. And then they've started to, you know, get a shame narrative and just in these settings I don't have enough time to work with them for years to get to that place like from an IFS lens. So we kind of, you know, put the model to the side. But you know, ifs, like anything else is, is a very like, unique modality but it's misused in a lot of ways. One of the things I always do when I get a new client in my, my office is I'm like, okay, and they're talking about IFS. I'm like so what does IFS mean?
Speaker 1:to you and I'll never make sure we're saying working definition of this, Right yeah.
Speaker 2:And I, and I remember, you know, when I first was starting using IFS, I asked the client, and he's well, it's, you know, I have all these parts and I have these like five parts, but I just have to beat them up and shove them in the back and so they don't have to come for her.
Speaker 1:And I'm like okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:I'm like that's, we're going to take a different lens on this, but you know it's there because IFS trainings are so hard to get into um which I think pros and cons, because it's really keeping the fidelity of the model but it doesn't give the opportunity for everyone who wants to learn it to learn it. We get a lot of version, different versions of IFS and you're not quite sure what that client means. When they walk in the door and like say, like I, you know, I've done IFS before and it was really helpful, it's like okay, walk me through, what did you do?
Speaker 1:You know what was helpful about it, but it's not standalone, though it integrates with other modalities.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:It's not like you have your IFS or nothing, it's like no, it plays well with the other modalities, right.
Speaker 2:It does play well with the other modalities and it's actually one of those things where it can be a little intense for clients if you're just doing IFS every single session, like going in after these burdens.
Speaker 2:You need a little breather from it yeah, but it's a great way to like speak about skills, you know, to learn about self. But it functions really well with EMDR. As psychedelic assisted therapies are coming on, um, ifs is like the treatment modality of choice for a lot of these. You know psychedelic assisted practitioners Um, it works really really well with somatic experiencing, brain spotting, cbt, inner child work you know all these different things. Psychodrama I know all these different things. Psychodrama I love incorporating ifs and psychodrama. Um, it's amazing what could happen. So it's all just, you know, I think really it could, it could meld together really really well. Um, and yeah, it's just if we could just do ifs all the time. Um, I think people need a little more variety than just that A little change of pace.
Speaker 1:Well, man, thank you for doing this. I mean I literally could sit and just probably wear you out just asking questions about this all day because it's been so helpful to me and other people. So thanks for the work that you've done on this and the research and the studying and all that kind of stuff. Anything else we missed or anything else you'd want to add about IFS.
Speaker 2:No, I mean I think we covered a lot and I think IFS is a great tool. I think I just I got a part of me that would really thank you and all the work you're doing with Valiant and doing these podcasts. I really think it's bringing the great work they do here at Valiant just to more people and helping them really understand and and you know find the right care for themselves or find the right support for themselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, it's a gift to me to be able to do it. I feel like I'm sitting here getting getting free therapy during the day. So, Michael Sims, thank you so much for being with us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you, drew, appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Well, we appreciate you listening to this episode of the Valiant Living Podcast and our hope is that it helped you feel educated, encouraged and even empowered on your journey towards peace and freedom. If we can serve you or your loved one in any way, we'd love to have a conversation with you. You can call 720-756-7941 or email admissions at valiantliving. At valiant living, we treat the whole person so you not only survive, but you thrive in the life you deserve. And finally, if this episode has been helpful to you, it would mean a lot to us if you'd subscribe and even share it with your friends and family. You can also follow along with us on Instagram and Facebook by simply searching valiant living. Thanks again for listening and supporting the valiant living podcast. We'll see you next week.