How often do we wear our pride like a heavy armor, only for it to lead us down a path of negativity and despair? If you've ever felt this, come join us for a candid and transformative conversation. Michael Dinneen, CEO and Founder of Valiant Living, shares his journey of letting go of shame, embracing vulnerability, and uncovering the liberating power of sharing secrets. It's a raw exploration of how this openness can foster genuine connections with others, which is a stepping stone to personal growth and recovery.
Forgiveness. It sounds simple, but it's so much more than just a word - it's a powerful force that can shape our lives and our mindset. We dive deep into the intricate link between forgiveness and recovery. The pride and pain an addict carries can often build walls around their heart. Knocking down these walls requires courage and forgiveness; we discuss why it's essential, not just for others but for ourselves too. It's about clearing the path for spiritual growth and a healthier mindset, allowing us to walk freely on the road to recovery.
Working on ourselves is undeniably important, but so are our relationships. This episode sheds light on the essence of healthy love and attachment. We talk about saying 'no' with love, and how that can be an essential part of a mature relationship. We also discuss the tricky business of handling tension and confrontation, and how authenticity in communication can make a world of difference. Wrapping it up, we delve into a critical discussion about the urgent need for addiction and mental health support in our society. Tune in to this enlightening conversation and embark on this journey of self-discovery and healing with us.
How often do we wear our pride like a heavy armor, only for it to lead us down a path of negativity and despair? If you've ever felt this, come join us for a candid and transformative conversation. Michael Dinneen, CEO and Founder of Valiant Living, shares his journey of letting go of shame, embracing vulnerability, and uncovering the liberating power of sharing secrets. It's a raw exploration of how this openness can foster genuine connections with others, which is a stepping stone to personal growth and recovery.
Forgiveness. It sounds simple, but it's so much more than just a word - it's a powerful force that can shape our lives and our mindset. We dive deep into the intricate link between forgiveness and recovery. The pride and pain an addict carries can often build walls around their heart. Knocking down these walls requires courage and forgiveness; we discuss why it's essential, not just for others but for ourselves too. It's about clearing the path for spiritual growth and a healthier mindset, allowing us to walk freely on the road to recovery.
Working on ourselves is undeniably important, but so are our relationships. This episode sheds light on the essence of healthy love and attachment. We talk about saying 'no' with love, and how that can be an essential part of a mature relationship. We also discuss the tricky business of handling tension and confrontation, and how authenticity in communication can make a world of difference. Wrapping it up, we delve into a critical discussion about the urgent need for addiction and mental health support in our society. Tune in to this enlightening conversation and embark on this journey of self-discovery and healing with us.
Well, hey, everyone. Welcome to the Valiant Living podcast, where we educate, encourage and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom. I'm your host, Drew Powell, and I'm a grateful alumni of the Valiant Living program. Valiant Living offers hope and transformational change to men and their families struggling with addiction and mental health challenges. So on this podcast you'll hear from the Valiant team, as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at 720-756-7941 or you can email admissions at valiantlivingcom. We'd love to have a conversation with you, but for now, let's dive into today's episode. Well, man, thanks for coming back on the podcast.
Speaker 1:You opened us up episode one and it's time to have you back, Nice, Thank you. Thanks, Ben man. How have you been?
Speaker 2:Thank you, it's good to see you, buddy. Life has been good. I'm realizing that I'm all over the place and that I am checking boxes with wife, children, business, home repair, my mother's 80th, and taking everyone down to Scottsdale and trying to show up for staff, trying to hire, trying to show up for clients, and that it's a lot of not feeling like I'm fully showing up for anybody and so I'm just trying to appease and so it's only been a couple of days where I'm sinking back into myself and being able to show up and be present.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you seem like you're lighter. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, this is a lot. While I'm here on this trip, I have my daughter with me. Actually, she's adorable. Yeah, she's the one that really like ripped me a new one in our men's impact letter. She's really let me have it, but it's, it's really special to have her here, and I told her on the way in.
Speaker 1:I was like man, this team and Michael they every day are going to war for guys like me, you know, and so you're doing that the therapy but it's also you run the business and do everything else. So a lot of gratitude coming at you from this, this side. Man, I'm grateful for what you do. I'm curious, though, and I love our conversation, so we'll do our best to keep this to 30 minutes, but you and I could talk forever. But I'm just curious. What's been going on? Like, yeah, what I love about how you lead this place is you'll take clients to dinner. Yeah, you'll hang with them. Right, you're very hands on. You're probably you would say probably you're at your best when you're in the trenches with the client, right, right, that's. You thrive there. It does bring me life, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think I've seen a couple of a couple of the younger guys. Both of them are 26. Really really good guys. Both are highly motivated, both coming from family businesses and just sort of launching their lives and emancipating and finding out who they are. So it's, it's all of these issues coming up and I told them. I said this isn't, this is just about hanging out and breaking bread together and checking in. But if, but, if. I would give one suggestion to these guys that while they're here, obviously people connect because it's like they had a whole history of using so that a lot of times they're going to connect through war stories or through sometimes negativity, sometimes through gossip. But if you really want to connect in a way that's going to change you and actually bring your relationship tighter, it's going to be taking those really vulnerable steps to making sure things are confidential, but telling, telling each other things that you've never told anybody that you that you've told yourself you would never, uh, that God, god knows, and that's about it.
Speaker 2:And no, no other human is ever going to know about this. And it could be just random stuff, stuff that happened in blackouts. It could be violent violence, abortion, it could be uh, you know the fact that sometimes I'd run these secret groups and these guys would be like, um, I'd set it up and then one guy would say I've been on opiates for five years and I haven't been ever to have sex and I've just been really embarrassed because I haven't been able to get it up or perform and it's just been like my whole. My marriage has been dead for years and other guys it's the exact opposite. I've been acting out and on meth and and or using Adderall and looking at porn and no one knows about it and they don't know the type of the type of stuff I'm looking at.
Speaker 2:I feel so much shame and it's all the current stuff around, like if you really knew the real me, you, you wouldn't, you wouldn't love me. So if the more detail you can give about the actual secret to the guy that's going to be one of your like soul soul brothers that you're walking through is is the shame. You're almost like de-shaming yourself, where the cops don't show up at your house, the guy doesn't run away, people aren't like making jokes and people aren't weirded out that you actually there's a, there's an intimacy that happens between two men that you find out you're not as bad as you thought you were and you weren't. You weren't as good as you thought you were either.
Speaker 1:And and they kind of beautiful to realize it's neither.
Speaker 2:So it's so beautiful, cause it's the bozo on the bus type stuff, where you just realize, like I, I can't believe I was holding myself in such contempt over, over some of this stuff and I felt so disgusted by me and the whole. All the shame, all the guilt, all the the hidden. And then you try to overcompensate by either trying to get people to like you or love you or show off or be cocky or be prideful or be, you know, unhealthily. You know you know humble and and putting yourself down. But there's all these games that we play that we don't even know we're playing because of this relationship to ourselves, this lack of acceptance of ourself.
Speaker 2:So the more we can kind of bring the inside. The way I heard it at first was you know, it's like dog shit it's, it's sort of you know, when it's in the shade and it's in the dark and it's it's in the shadow and it's under a tree, it just pulsates, it's disgusting, flies live off it, it hangs out forever. But you take it and you put it out and the sun hits it and you can. You know, within an hour you can play hockey with it, it's dried out and it doesn't.
Speaker 2:it doesn't even smell, and it is very much so that old Catholic concept of confession that got distorted along the way throughout the centuries. We know now, from a therapeutic standpoint, from a religious standpoint, from a spiritual standpoint, that we need to release this stuff in order to start to feel the forgiveness the self forgiveness, the forgiveness from our creator. It's not from a lack of a forgive, it's from a lack of transparency about our inner life that kind of blocks the the it creates just creates.
Speaker 1:It's funny because, as you're talking, I'm remembering we did a secrets group and we went when I was here, we went through all that stuff, right, but there was, for whatever reason, there was, two that I left off and the other stuff was plenty shameful.
Speaker 1:It wasn't like you know, but you know, it's like just that those two that like I just I couldn't bring myself to talk about in the group but it was eating at me because I was finding such freedom in opening up about this stuff and I was like I got to tell somebody about it, like I have to, and I pulled one of the guys in the it's why we talk all the time when guys are coming to program, how important it is, like the, the community is as important, if not more important, than anything else we do. Because I pulled one of those guys in and I said hey man, can I just confess a couple of things to you that I left out. On the secrets in the secrets group, you're like, yeah sure, I told him hardest, one of the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, right, and it's exactly what you just said. His response was so healing and so freeing. He wasn't like, oh man, that's no big deal, right, but he also didn't make me feel like I was the worst human on the planet Right.
Speaker 1:He's like man. Sometimes we do stupid stuff you know, and that's just part of it and like at least you're.
Speaker 1:And he thanked me and they're like it was like gosh, why was I holding onto that for so long? Right, and I had just on the other side of confession was this was healing and the cool thing is it and I grew up a Christian and so the cool thing about it was I didn't tell God to get my healing wasn't from telling God, it's from telling another guy, yeah, and in that I believe God was. In that I do, you know, but it's like God knew all along, but I didn't find healing until I told it's somebody else, you know that's a really good way to say it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so powerful and I think we do that. 10%, 90% just gives is given to us. Yep, Right, Um. That reminds me of.
Speaker 2:I've had so many of these situations where I'm like all in my head prideful, the one that the example that I'm thinking about is kind of random, but I was. I was all thinking I was important, working at this hospital. I had this big title and I was waiting in line to get my badge reprocessed and this woman was just being a pain in the neck and I was an idiot to her and she was an idiot to me. And then I was like I'm going to write an email to this woman's supervisor and I'm walking across the parking lot and I'm just, I'm just angry and in my head about this woman.
Speaker 2:And then I tell a buddy of mine, um, what had happened? And he's just like, um, dude, you're an a-hole. He's like you know how hard it is working in a basement dealing with guys like you all day, and uh, and so he's like you should go over there and apologize. So I walk back across the parking lot, I go back into the, I wait in the line again and I just said you know, look, I'm, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm a jerk, Um and uh, and she started to cry.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:And we like hugged and it was like I walked across but the but what happened? And I know for normies and earth, people and people that are more uh, well, adjusted emotionally.
Speaker 2:What happened for me was I was free, I walked across and she was off my brain, gone. Um, I was just thinking I like that woman, like I'm going to write her supervisor and like tell them that she's doing a, she's doing a, find out, and but, uh, but the point was is that, you know, the freedom came from the fact that I took some action and kind of evicted her, but the pride was more like what she deserved, it. I need someone, needs to say something, and it's like and then I'm, I've got the toxicity inside of me, I'm living with this irritation, and then what that leads to as an addict or somebody is, is going to. Now I have to relieve that irritation somehow, right.
Speaker 2:So these things compound and so the real, the act of saying I'm sorry, is an act of getting. Yeah, it's getting right with God, but it's really it's. It's this act of getting right with me so I can clear the channel, so that and everybody benefits from it. And now I don't, now I don't have to go abuse, abuse some drug or or, or something, or or have an anger outburst or something, because all these little incidences are building up and they're clogging up all the, all the spiritual tubes that are supposed to be open, so that I have these, these funnels in these tunnels, and this and this ability to connect. So good.
Speaker 1:So let's, can we follow just this train a little bit on on forgiveness, Because I think a part of my journey was was forgiving even myself. Myself was a big, big part of it. Could you talk a little bit just about the role that forgiveness plays in an addict's recovery journey? Right, whether it's needing forgiveness or if it's owning what do like? A lot of us guys really struggle with forgiving ourselves. So we talk a little bit about confession, but what about the kind of the other side of it of of learning how to embrace forgiveness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's such, a, such a gift that when it is when it does happen inside of me that I realize I don't know what I'm talking about when I've talked about forgiveness in the past. Really, so yeah, five years from now, or two years or six months from now, I'm going to be like oh my God, you listen to this podcast and you're like I had no idea.
Speaker 2:Can't believe I said that crap on the podcast Shit talker, but I would say, yeah, I've got. I've gotten to a point where, personally, I've learned how powerful forgiveness is, that I will say prayers to God from the bottom of my heart. Whatever pain I need to go through to forgive, bring it on, because because it's sort of like what I, what I'm trying to do, is, because I see the value in in this sort of I love what Emmett Fox, the metaphysical teacher from the Bill W, the guy that started AA, he was following a bunch of like kind of spiritual gurus that during, you know, the 1930s and early 40s, and Emmett Fox was a scientist and he took the Sermon on the Mount and he took the Lord's prayer and he talked about Jesus as a metaphysicist and he talked about how things are locked spiritually. And one of the things that he talks about is like the. You take, word for word, line for line, the Lord's prayer and one of the lines is forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. So he's saying, basically, they're locked together, that one doesn't happen without the other. So so God, like all of this, beautiful spiritual gifts are being given to us as we forgive those who have trespassed against us, right.
Speaker 2:And then and it's just sort of understanding, I think it's the beauty of the 12 steps is, while you're doing the fourth step, you start to realize I mean crazy stuff, like I remember, you know, I thought Italian guys were my problem. That's why I left New York. It wasn't alcohol or anything else, or, you know, beer, muscles in my big mouth or my insecurity. And then I'm like all of a sudden I'm like I gotta get out of New York. Man, it's the 80s. These guys have drive me crazy. They just wanna fight, you know, and you know big. You know life beater t-shirts, steroids, you know.
Speaker 1:Are you a big fighter?
Speaker 2:Are you a big fighter? I ended up in a lot of fights but I would have never considered myself a big fighter. But so I'm doing my fourth step and I'm, like you know, looking at my resentments and groups of people that I dislike, and Italian guys came up on there and I'm like I got all these reasons why. And then I look at, well, what was your part, you know like, well, my part was like, yeah, I was a very insecure guy and, you know, I need a lot of attention from women, and you know, and I'd go into these bars and then, you know, sometimes I'd be flirting, you know, and with a, you know, attractive Italian girl or the girlfriend of a large Italian man, and then I'd end up in a brawl and then I'd feel like the victim, right.
Speaker 2:So all of a sudden I see clearly that it's not just Italian guys with anger problems. It's my big mouth, my drunkenness, my need for attention, my flirtatious nature, my needing, and that I'm stepping on other people's toes and they retaliate seemingly without provocation, but invariably I find that I've done something in the past that has put myself later in a position to be hurt, right. So it's not his fault, you know, he's got to deal with his anger problem. It's not necessary. I'm not the worst guy in the world because I'm this super insecure guy.
Speaker 2:So I start to forgive myself, I start to own that I had a big part in this and immediately I start to understand that he needs to be forgiven too, because he's struggling like I'm struggling, maybe not with being a flirt, but something else, right? So then all of a sudden, so the Did it help you with compassion and empathy towards this? Yeah, so naturally, like you don't even realize it, but you're starting to have compassion and empathy and forgiveness for people that have hurt you and you start to learn the value of the freedom that comes from that right. And so I guess that's what I would say from a basic level of forgiveness is like I'm not gonna tell everyone that we all have to do this, and I know a lot of people have been wounded very deeply, but what I am saying is is the gift is really to us.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, that was gonna be my follow-up question, because we, you know you deal with guys all the time here that uncover traumas as they're doing their work. And what would you say to someone who was really struggling to forgive someone who had hurt them deeply and sometimes you can't that person maybe passed on or you know like. So how do we, as guys who are struggling with addiction and recovery, embrace forgiveness when it's so tough?
Speaker 2:I think it depends on. So, like, for one person, actually tapping into the anger and the pain and the hurt and the rage is more appropriate than going straight to forgiveness right Just to bypass. To bypass the natural process would be a disservice to that person. So if they're uncovering something and they're able to feel the pain and the anger around it, we're not really trying to get to the forgiveness phase. What we're trying to do is learn how to let that guy sit with that pain and be with it and embrace that versus. Because I think sometimes the forgiveness will be more of a natural process, it'll come as a phase Instead of half of these guys, like everyone, did the best they could.
Speaker 2:You know, we were all just trying really hard and then shit happened, and so that people are always constantly trying to rationalize and unless you deal with the actual events that happen, those events come back just continuously haunt us right. So I guess what? There's a convoluted way of saying I'm not necessarily trying to get somebody to that forgiveness phase, because I know that I'm just a, I'm the beginning of somebody's journey. They're only here for their first, sometimes 90 days to six months of their life, of their new life, and that I'm not trying to create a sainthood. I'm trying to create the conditions that make things safe enough to get well, yeah, right.
Speaker 1:So what are some of the other things coming up in these conversations with guys? What are some of the other topics that are that rise of the surface that you've been dealing with?
Speaker 2:You know what I'm moving into by the, but just career-wise and being doing this for 28 years and being in my own recovery for 32, is this phase of learning the value I know it's a little late in the game, but the learning, the value of what healthy love and attachment really feels like, even at a basic level. So saying no to a client and then, but they understand for some reason that this guy actually likes me, this guy loves me, this guy cares about me and he's telling me no it's happened twice in the last two days.
Speaker 2:One this guy gives me the speech. He's like well, you know, the yearly trip to Barbados is like the only thing. My girlfriend's broken up with me. I've lost my job, I'm locked here and it's the only thing I've got is this trip to Barbados every year. And he's just a beautiful human being.
Speaker 2:But I'm like well, how do you think your mother feels about all this?
Speaker 2:You know, don't you think it would be really cool if she got a phone call where you're like I think it's the best thing that I stay in treatment and then I continue my course and there'll be many more trips over at Barbados and I love you, mom, and I'm so sorry that I've hurt you so much over the past couple of years and I'm just and that you learn how to act your way into right living and say things that sometimes you don't even mean.
Speaker 2:Not fake it to you make it. But actually love and action looks like this. It looks like you going up and giving your mom a hug and a kiss and telling her how sorry you are and that you love her, before you actually feel the feeling that's called mature. It's a more mature love. It's more love and action versus the gushy feeling that we feel like we need to feel in order to be authentic in our words and in our actions. So point is teaching these guys myself, everybody that it's important. So it was kind of I mean, it's a 10 minute conversation, but it's no, you're not going to Barbados, we'll fuck you and we'll fuck you.
Speaker 2:And then there's like but you know why we're doing this and then coaching somebody on. Well, how do you want to walk this forward? Cause this isn't about people power tripping on you. This is not about a treatment center trying to limit you or frex. This isn't about your mom being mad and controlling. This is about your integrity. This is about how you walk things out. This is about you becoming the man you're supposed to be. This is about your character. How are you going to deal with this? How are you going to? I'm just giving you a fresh, you know just happen type thing.
Speaker 2:But the point is, is there's deeper stuff going on? There's this I've only been told yes when you like me and no when you don't like me. You're an enemy when I don't get my way. You're my homeboy if you have my back. So what does life look like? Where you and I can have some tension, work through it and actually have the rip of the muscle and the build back is actually where the increased muscle comes from, and so it's like learning how to have healthy attachment and healthy love actually takes pain and ripping and tearing and build back, and so it's a new way of looking. The movies are like it's all good, it's all good yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, is it a matter of I love what you're saying right now, cause I feel like this is right where I'm living, it's what your daughter.
Speaker 2:You shared it earlier. You were like my daughter out there, my adorable daughter who I'm on this trip with and we're going to see colleges and I just love this girl. She was the harshest one with you during the beginning process right. And she set the ante of like I'm going to get real with you. It's going to take a little bit for you to win my heart back.
Speaker 1:Yep, Absolutely. But when she did start opening back up to me, it was a deeper connection because I knew it was real. She wasn't just letting me back in just like. It was like okay, she's like all right, I'm going to start building this trust back a little bit, but what you just said is so hard for me to do, Like it's so difficult for me to have confrontation Right. And even that word, I think, is distorted. People hear that and they think that means argument. It's like no, it literally means con with your front to something right.
Speaker 1:So, like I'm working, fronting something together, but in this one it just be my attic brain. Right, because I feel like I got to codependently manage how you're going to respond to whatever this is. And we did. Even before we hit record in this podcast, you and I had a conversation. It was beautiful, that it was awesome. But what I did was open up to you about attention. We both were kind of feeling I think, yeah, but it because of the strength of our relationship and me knowing your character. I was able to say, okay in the past. Say to myself in the past I never would have done this with another leader. Right, because I've got to manage and manipulate Michael Like and what if he says this? Or what if he says, well, screw you, you're out here, whatever it might be? Right, and that risk was too great. Well, now, the way I'm trying to live, the risk is too great to not, you know, lean into that thing. And you responded beautifully. We actually are more excited now than we ever been.
Speaker 2:Totally, totally.
Speaker 1:That half hour could be a game changer it could change our both of our lives and we're so pumped about it and you know.
Speaker 2:But the point is why are we so scared? Why, yeah, and I there's. So there's a lot of reasons. What I found inside of me is this deep insecurity that eventually, if you don't like me and if I don't somehow keep you happy with me, you're going to leave me. And ultimately, when everyone leaves me, ultimately I'm going to. I'm going to all the way to the end. The deep, deep, deep, like dark, like well, why are we so scared to just be totally who we are and speak for our heart, not speak from our emotion, but speak for our emotions, speak for our thoughts, yeah, and knowing that we could actually hurt other people's feelings, that we could create tension, that we can create, you know, anger in somebody else or pain, why are we so? Why am I so hesitant to do that? And I think a lot of it has to do with, I think, if I manage you, well, you won't, you won't ditch me, dude, that's it.
Speaker 1:You won't ditch me in the long run.
Speaker 2:And if I have too many people ditch me, I'm screwed Right. And I'm talking about my wife, my kids, my everyone, god, everybody right. And so, and if I'm not secure enough within me that I can trust the process, I can trust my own integrity, I can trust the other person is mature enough that we're gonna have, then I've gotta sell you. And then once I sell you, I gotta keep you there, I gotta. It's a horrible process, because now, once we're bros, now I've gotta keep you.
Speaker 1:So it's just a game. The game goes on and then you never truly have like true connection because it's surf, it's. You never go deep because you're managing the whole time.
Speaker 2:You're managing.
Speaker 1:And that was my whole world before.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's part of why I wanna have that, and then I gotta get mad at you in order to confront you, because now I've gotta pump myself up, because it's like I gotta say this, I gotta get this off my chest. And then it comes out weird. It comes out like I'm upset at you when, in fact, the way we did it earlier, there was no, there's zero tension, even though it was uncomfortable. At times there were seconds of discomfort, but the reality of it is like what if I would have walked away from that conversation, not having and you not having spoke our truth? If we would have walked away, I would have built a narrative.
Speaker 2:That's right, I would have been like what was going on in that conversation and what just happened. And then I've created a story and then I start buying into the story and it's just like ridiculous.
Speaker 1:And if I were to try to work or manipulate or sell or whatever, first of all you would have sniffed it out immediately. But also it because I have mistrust. Mistrust is one of my top schemas, it's in my I think it might be number one actually, because what you just said I mean I almost got emotional when you said a minute ago what I, the lie I've bought into, is, at some point everyone will leave me, it's gonna happen. And because it has happened a lot in my life there's been a lot of abandonment, emotional abandonment, you know all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:And so now I'm living with this ongoing like I have to perform because Michael's gonna leave me if I don't X, y and Z or if I speak honestly or truthfully. So I have to get over that, overcome that and say you know what I'm gonna, you know, hand him my sword here and he can choose to defend me or stab me with it. But when you respond the way you did, not only does the connection deepen, but the trust and the loyalty. Now I'm like, oh, actually I think we're in it for the long haul, like we can have these, you know, and the next time we have to do it, it'll even be easier for me. So I was nervous to talk to you about some of this stuff, and then you respond like amazingly, like I'm like oh gosh, like I felt like a weight was lifted.
Speaker 1:So anyways, all that to say, I think there's a better way of doing these, these confrontations like around. You know it started with you saying about telling people no and be able to receive no. I know.
Speaker 2:And how long. I mean, I'm 55 years old, yeah. And realizing now that how people feel about me in the moment me even caring about that is not a loving, kind thing for them. So like it's not me getting my needs met from you and how you respond to me is actually just another form of manipulation for me. So, like now I'm realizing like, oh yeah, people are gonna be pissed off, like I'm the employer here. So like the staff are judging me, the client, the clients are judging me, and my job is not to run for a popularity contest. My job is to be authentic and actually be mature enough to actually love that client, even when I know he's talking shit about me.
Speaker 2:I remember being I was so hurt at that hospital job when I was in the sauna and I heard these clients all manipulating me. They were like how you doing, bro, like you know you look good, you know like and they started this whole like Mike Dunnean, like routine, like behind my back. They didn't know that I was listening to this, oh you could hear him do it.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I was listening to everybody imitate me and I was like. I was like, oh my God, and I was so hurt, I was so angry. But the reality was is like you know, a mature guy, of course. The clinical coordinator, the guy that's making all the rules, the guy that's chop, blocking everyone that's sending me to treatment that's talking about me to my parents, like all you know to my wife.
Speaker 2:Of course they're talking crap, yeah right, and my job is to actually learn. How do you show up for people knowing that they may not feel the way, and the way IFS has really helped me with this is understanding. It's just a part of them.
Speaker 1:What's IFS?
Speaker 2:Internal Family Systems, to know that, like we have different parts of self. So, like if this judgmental part you know and I feel threatened by you and I do this, it's like it doesn't mean that my highest and best self doesn't love you. It just means there's a part of me right now that feels threatened and I'm gonna go talk to my friend about you. Right, it's still. That's immature, but it's not the essence. So if I can see the real spirit in somebody and I know that, like they're highest and best self, this is how my wife and I were able to forgive each other for some of the heinous stuff we said to each other and in fights and things like that is this Dr Harf Powers, his pastor psychologist who was doing our marriage counseling, said when your prefrontal cortex goes off flying and you're like drunk with emotion and you say these hurtful things, he said that it wasn't even you.
Speaker 2:It's like you on steroids and drunk and distorted and there's bits and pieces of truth but it's not you. That the essence, the highest and best self, the loving you, the center, the woman that you love. So I was able to like, look at her and be like, yeah, it wasn't her when she said some of those things to me Really wasn't? I saw a different person. I saw a different look in her eye. It was a part of her that was so hurt and she was lashing back out that I was able to actually forgive.
Speaker 2:Back to the forgiveness, I was able to forgive because I was like, oh, that's just a part of her that took her over. A little girl that grabbed the wheel of the car because she was scared that the car was gonna crash because dad was drunk and she grabbed the car wheel and she ended up crashing the car anyway, but she was six and so it was a part of her. That was, and it's not the essence of who my wife is, it's not the woman that I know deep. And then all of a sudden, whoo Right, it just like the couple years of pain, yes, like how could I ever forgive some of the things that were said? And vice versa. For her I can't tell you about her process, but for mine it was like instantaneous, like I was able to be like that's right.
Speaker 1:The parts work is a game changer and for the families. So a big part of what we do here at Valiant and part of your vision here is holistic treatment for the family, like it's about putting these families back together, right? So I will say the parts work for me and for my wife is probably a big part of the reason why we're still together and forgiving one another and living together in this new way of recovery, because Valiant was able to help my wife see exactly what you just said Like hey, when Drew was doing some of these things, he was not in his right mind. The parts work actually helped us work towards forgiveness. Now, it wasn't a free pass at all. I mean, it was not like oh okay, like no, it's like I'm still hurt and traumatized and triggered and all those things. So it wasn't without work that needed to happen, but it did give us some language and a container to begin that forgiveness process and even being able to forgive myself.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of guys that do IFS in here. It's helpful for them to say a part of me, a part of me still wants this, a part of me still wants this old life, part of me still wants to go get drunk or go get whatever. And I remember the counselors here really helping me say, hey, you gotta embrace that, like do not suppress the part of you that wants to go back to the thing that was killing you. And so it's so-.
Speaker 2:Give him a seat at the table, because if not and listen to it He'll bomb in on you at some point and blow the whole house up, versus letting him speak his mind and saying, okay, what's up?
Speaker 1:what's up?
Speaker 2:buddy, I remember this counselor. We were in Nashville at onsite and I think he lives in Nashville, this guy, Warren Brent, and somebody said to him like well, what do you do, Warren, Like when you go to your family's house and he's like, or some difficult situation that he had to show up at, and he goes. I just parked the car, bought a block away, and I have a little conversation with these different parts and I say, hey, buddy, you gotta keep a lid on it right now, Like we'll go out, throw some rocks, eat some pizza. Later we'll go down to the river, we'll fish and we can go apeshit, but for the next two hours I'm in control here. Like let the adults in the room handle the situation. And I thought this was like 15 years ago and I thought that's brilliant to have to actually have a pregame with your own parts.
Speaker 1:Is that the inner child stuff connected to the parts too? I think it is.
Speaker 2:In his case. I assume that he was talking about both whether he was talking IFS, but he was also talking inner child stuff. But I think a lot of times we used to make fun of this stuff back in the day in Boston in the 90s and AA and stuff around like. But now you look at it and you think, oh yeah, there's a lot more multiplicity going on inside of us. It's more like Lord of the Rings right.
Speaker 2:Our inner journeys are pretty amazing when you think about what's going on inside a person, all the attachment cues, all the different hurts, traumas, the things that turn us on, the things that turn us off the past.
Speaker 2:All these things are going on inside of us moment to moment, second to second, and I think that to be just more observant, more mindful, more ability to step back I think that's what IFS does too is it gives you this ability to actually see that you're blended with a part Like I can see myself angry right now at like a third person looking at myself, all pissed off, and it's like you're gonna say something you're gonna regret and actually being like, well, I'm gonna do it anyway. And then you jump in and it's like you know you're running down like a really bad, but to be able to stop and be like, yeah, you probably don't wanna do that and unblend and then speak for the anger, say you know what? I'm just really hurt right now and I'm really angry and I don't think this is the time or the place I need to breathe I'll be back in an hour versus just disappearing or abandoning or fighting.
Speaker 1:The return is the important part.
Speaker 2:The return is the important part, but to be able to self-regulate and to unblend yourself is a key, I think, to emotional sobriety. It's a key to saving a marriage. It's a key to a new frontier of relationships, because now you just don't have to stay blended with the emotion. You can actually unblend, speak for it, still honor it, still be truthful, still be real, still be open-hearted. But you're coming from a different place, yeah and I love that.
Speaker 1:So I got one last question for you. But I love the fact that you and I come in here. We have no notes. We didn't even know what you were talking about you're like, just like, let's just start talking and it's just, it's so good. I mean, this is really helpful stuff and it's really why we wanna do this podcast, because this is the kind of stuff we're talking about behind the closed doors every day and we wanna bring this to a larger audience.
Speaker 2:I would love to do this as often as we could, just because there's so much to download. About 30 years of doing this, and, but it's more than 30 years of doing treatment and recovery. It's 30 years of all of us getting our butts kicked. I love this whole concept of like. I always used to buy tickets to Boston College football and I never made it into a game because I'd always just end up drunk and tailgating the whole time, right.
Speaker 2:So it was like the miracle would be like that you made it into the stands, but the real miracle would be like you made it onto the sideline, and then the real miracle would be like you worked your butt off and you got on the field. But then, once you're on the field, you're about to get your ass kicked, and I think that in a good way, I think that the more we could talk about, well, what does it look and feel like to get in the stands? And then what does it look like to feel like to get on the field eventually? And then what does it feel like to get your butt kicked, and then what does it feel like to stay in the game?
Speaker 2:And then, what does it feel like eventually to have enough wisdom to know how to win, yeah, and to be humble about it just because there's no? It's like Barry Sanders, like getting across the and I just heard a story about him, like that he, they were like Barry, why don't you celebrate? And he's just like I don't, I'm not excited when I get across that touchdown, Like I just feel relief. I just hand the ball over to the referee, I just feel relief. And it's like what does it feel like to start scoring touchdowns and not feel cocky about it?
Speaker 2:but, feel, just feel relief.
Speaker 2:Just like, right, Just like and so I think that that's really what we're trying to do is like we're never gonna get so well that we start floating around and with all this wisdom, that our feet are gonna be like Bill says in the 12 by 12, that our feet are gonna be planted on the ground with our heads in the cloud with our creator. So it's sort of like, how do we get into that zone, how do we get to, with our head in the clouds with our creator, but our feet firmly planted on the ground? Cause guess what? That's where God's kids are they're on the ground.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:They're there and so like how do you live this spiritual life? Utilize spiritual tools, get your butt kicked, keep your feet on the ground, use everything for the benefit of your own life and others' lives, and then and not do it well and not feel shame that we're all peddling our tricycles as fast as we can and we're screwing up and we're works in progress, and so that would be. My message is, like in all of these podcasts, is how do we show others out there that we're never gonna arrive and this is gonna be messy, but it's gonna. There's gonna be hope along the way and it really is about the journey, you know.
Speaker 1:So good. It's really brilliant. So, but let me ask you this question. I'm not gonna let you go, but cause we'll just do more of these, cause there's so much we talk about. Yeah, I always love asking visionary leaders about and you don't have to spill the beans, cause I know you got a lot of things you're always dreaming about, but turn of the page 2024. Yeah, what's 2024? Look like for Valiant?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. So for Valiant it's sort of bringing guys like you and it's getting the word out, bringing guys like Dustin on to actually move from our adolescence into our young adulthood, in the sense of like everybody's got a job description, everybody knows what they're doing here and the mission and the vision and it's like it's oozing out of them instead of like all these really open hearted, amazing people that are. That's still kind of questioning am I doing things right? Am I doing? Am I living up to the expectations of the of Valiant? So like making letting the, letting the organization sink in and being fiscally responsible and then looking at saying how do we take this model more towards an outpatient to places like Nashville and other places in the United States that can use this sort of addiction, interaction, disorder, fusion of like how do you take a guy and go in on every aspect of his life and support him through it and make him feel safe and comfortable, like there, you know there's a market, there's a need out there. There's a reason why, per capita, that middle-aged white male that's not so popular right now in the world is one of the highest rates of suicide in the world. Right, and they and it doesn't look like necessary suicide all the time when it's car crashes and all that. But I just want to say like there's a need out there and so I think we're teeing ourselves up for things to solidify here so that we can actually, so that we could actually grow the model.
Speaker 2:So it would be like the end of 2024. My hope would be that we're having this conversation and that you and I are looking at saying, okay, we're gonna actually we're gonna take this next leap, we're gonna do it. You know, and there's a lot. The last thing I would say is we're gonna try to grow that short-term residential piece for people that wanna use that in network benefit, wanna come out and just kind of get clear and say where do I need to go in life? Offer that 10 to 14 day in network so they're not breaking the bank and they just wanna get clean from everything and we do that for them and then we set them up with like a continuing care plan that everything's rock solid when they go home. They're connected to a lot of resources. So that would be my hope. Grow that, grow the fiscal part, and then look to open up a few outpatient centers in other areas that have the need, probably starting in like a Nashville.
Speaker 1:It's exciting, man, it's good stuff. We just had our all staff a few weeks ago and man it's. The future is bright for Valiant. Team is strong, organization is strong. So thank you for your leadership, thanks to people like you.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, thanks, drew, appreciate you man.
Speaker 1:What we appreciate you listening to this episode of the Valiant Living podcast, and our hope is that it helped you feel educated, encouraged and even empowered on your journey towards peace and freedom. If we can serve you or your loved one in any way, we'd love to have a conversation with you. You can call 720-756-7941 or email admissions at ValiantLivingcom. At Valiant Living, we treat the whole person so you not only survive, but you thrive in the life you deserve. And finally, if this episode has been helpful to you, it would mean a lot to us if you'd subscribe and even share it with your friends and family. You can also follow along with us on Instagram and Facebook by simply searching Valiant Living. Thanks again for listening and supporting the Valiant Living podcast. We'll see you next week.