Have you ever considered the profound impact that the family of an addict has on their recovery journey? As your host, we sat down with Jill Gallegos, the lead therapist at Valiant Living, who provided an eye-opening perspective about the essential role of family in the process of addiction recovery. She walked us through her day-to-day endeavors, dealing with the shock, trauma, and sometimes manipulation involved when a loved one is battling addiction.
Her journey from a nursing background into becoming a licensed professional counselor, addiction counselor, and a family therapist is an inspiration. She brings to light how her personal experiences have shaped her approach in helping others in their recovery. We also look into the importance of structuring schedules in recovery and the significance of empathy and surrender in the process.
Our conversation ends with a discussion on the importance of breaking codependency and fostering open communication for healing. Jill outlines her vision for an alumni program, where past participants step up as temporary sponsors for newcomers. We also touch on rebuilding relationships, personal growth, and the importance of connection in recovery. We guarantee that this episode will leave you with a renewed understanding of addiction recovery and the key role of family in the process. Tune in to be a part of this enlightening conversation.
Have you ever considered the profound impact that the family of an addict has on their recovery journey? As your host, we sat down with Jill Gallegos, the lead therapist at Valiant Living, who provided an eye-opening perspective about the essential role of family in the process of addiction recovery. She walked us through her day-to-day endeavors, dealing with the shock, trauma, and sometimes manipulation involved when a loved one is battling addiction.
Her journey from a nursing background into becoming a licensed professional counselor, addiction counselor, and a family therapist is an inspiration. She brings to light how her personal experiences have shaped her approach in helping others in their recovery. We also look into the importance of structuring schedules in recovery and the significance of empathy and surrender in the process.
Our conversation ends with a discussion on the importance of breaking codependency and fostering open communication for healing. Jill outlines her vision for an alumni program, where past participants step up as temporary sponsors for newcomers. We also touch on rebuilding relationships, personal growth, and the importance of connection in recovery. We guarantee that this episode will leave you with a renewed understanding of addiction recovery and the key role of family in the process. Tune in to be a part of this enlightening conversation.
Well, hey, everyone. Welcome to the Valiant Living podcast, where we educate, encourage and empower you towards a life of peace and freedom. I'm your host, drew Powell, and I'm a grateful alumni of the Valiant Living program. Valiant Living offers hope and transformational change to men and their families struggling with addiction and mental health challenges. So on this podcast you'll hear from the Valiant team, as well as stories of alumni who are living in recovery. If you or someone you love is struggling to overcome addiction or trauma, please call us at 720-756-7941 or you can email admissions at valiantlivingcom.
Speaker 1:We'd love to have a conversation with you, but for now, let's dive into today's episode. I've been so excited to have you on because you play such a significant role in my family's recovery. I mean, I don't even have a word to describe Significant, doesn't even cover it. I mean, I think at one point you talk to Jamie almost every day. You were grocery shopping and my family adores you. We're, all you know, unapologetically huge Jill fans. So thank you for everything you invested into us and I'm just excited to have you on the podcast.
Speaker 2:Well, no, thank you, I'm excited to be here. I have no idea what I'm doing, but I'm here.
Speaker 1:Are you nervous?
Speaker 2:A little bit, a little bit. I have no idea what you're throwing at me, so that's why I'm nervous.
Speaker 1:Well, we, were joking ahead of time, like I gave you a list of questions that it was like me getting back at you for the assignment you gave us and like taking it out on you, but you know this stuff so inside and out and I just love so just to explain to people. Why don't you explain it? So your role in, like for Jamie and I you weren't my primary therapist, but so tell a little bit about that, like how do you function with the families and kind of your role in that capacity.
Speaker 2:So my role here is the. I'm the lead therapist, but I'm also like the family systems therapist. So I'm a family support and I'm a family contact. So what I do is when somebody lands, I initially reach out to their family to let them know that they're here, and then I explain what programming looks like and it depends on what track you're on to. I send out a whole bunch of information like questionnaires and just trying to gain like a better understanding of who that person is and what they're here for, and then I also send out a whole bunch of psycho education and resources for them to be able to get their own support and help. If they're here for the SA track, my main goal is making sure that they have the support that they need as well.
Speaker 1:SA is sexual addiction for people listening at Donal. Yeah, oh sorry, yes For the sexual addiction track.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the level of trauma the partner has when they're coming into this and the regular like the level of dysregulation that they have when they're coming into this, with that discovery and finding out what's going on, is really high. So they're kind of all over the board, right. They're going through like the shock and this you know this like it is shock.
Speaker 2:I guess more than anything, and this disbelief of what's going on and they're, you know, they're unsure of what's happening with their family. Everything that they thought was like good is not. It's all falling apart in front of their eyes. They have no idea what's going to happen and now, all of a sudden, the person that they trusted the most with everything that they had is gone, and they're here, and then they're kind of left just holding all the pieces that have just broken in front of them Upside down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and at this point, probably even we don't even know the depth of the trauma we caused. We're still in our addiction or controls, going through, like we're wanting to talk, we're wanting to, you know, manipulate our way through and all this stuff. So you're like managing these addicts who are trying to help their family. Something you said to me when I was here. I've repeated this probably a thousand times. It was so profound. You said, andrew, you're I'm going to say it in a way that's going to sound harsh, but people have to know you, because this is not. Your heart is always for us. You're the biggest advocate for people that are here, out of anybody, I think. But you said, andrew, your tendency is to smoke people. Remember when you said that?
Speaker 1:to me, what did you mean when you said that?
Speaker 2:That your, your drug of choice isn't. You know it. It isn't cigarettes, right. It isn't alcohol, Right, Like you're smoking people, Right. So you're using people is what you're using.
Speaker 1:So I have chills right now as you're saying it, because when you said that to me, it was a light bulb went off, like and we'll get into this in a minute. But even when you wouldn't let me talk to my family at first, you're like, if you talk to them now, you're going to use them to feel better. So you have people to talk to you, you've got community, you got support, you got a whole team. But if we let you talk to your wife and your kids now, you're going to totally screwed up and you're going to use them to feel better. And I've never, I've thought that so many times since you told me that, because I'm just like man. That is so true. That is so true for a lot of us addicts, even with a substance or process you know, disorder, addiction, that is, that is so true. And so your role, the big part of your role, is to be that liaison, because our families don't have contact with us at first most of the time.
Speaker 2:Most of the time. Yeah, usually, when people come in, generally, especially people that come in that are SA, I, my main goal is to to seize communication. That's because hurt people hurt people, right? So our, our significant other is going to ask a whole bunch of questions and you're going to want to try to give it answers and they're not going to be the full truth and so we're going to drip communication to them, and that dripping of of any information is more damaging than it is good and it's going to lead them to want to do more research and dig more and create more turmoil for them that they don't need.
Speaker 1:So we're going to still lie and manipulate and create more problems ourselves or try to gaslight or all the other things. Yep.
Speaker 2:Cause all you're going to do is lie and manipulate, right To try to cover it up, to make it better. Cause heaven forbid, they now they're going to leave you, right, that's the first thing that you're thinking, like, I'm here, I'm stuck here. I have no idea what they're doing. You're seizing my communication. My wife's going to leave me. I have no idea what she's doing back home. I have no control over that situation. I can't. I can't smooth this over like I normally would. Yeah, and then, on the opposite end of that, this woman that you've completely destroyed, right? Who's now taking care of everything the house, the bills, the kids, things that she probably hasn't taken care of before, cause, you know, her significant other has always been her partner or the person taking care of those things? Right, she's taking care of all of this, has no idea how to do it, right? So now she's. She's looking at it and she's like, oh great, now he's on vacation and I'm here, left with everything by myself.
Speaker 1:That's so true. That's so true. And and you guys do a really good job of helping us even reintegrate, because we're coming from this like boot camp of therapy and healing and whatever, and a lot of times entering back if you're fortunate you told me early on like you're probably not going home at the end of this right.
Speaker 1:And and because, and again, I hope people I hope people listening to this that need it will come and get to know you, because what I can, why I connected with you right right away, was your honesty, Like you just had a way with us guys of just cutting through the crap, telling us what we need to hear, telling us hard truth that we need to hear, and I loved it. It was like refreshing for me. So one thing I needed to hear early on is hey, you may not be going home at 90 days, you may have to come with something else. My case was rare, you know, and I say rare because my wife did so much work, Like she just you know so, but in my situation. But you would always follow up with that, with you and you're going to be okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no matter what, both of you will be okay. And if you and your family will be okay, right. If we can get the support that everybody needs lined up, everybody's going to be okay. And that support is like making sure that we find, you know, the correct kind of therapist for your spouse back home, making sure that we find therapy for your children back home, right. So your spouse needs a C-stat or a or an absat or a CPTT, right? They need somebody who understands this level of addiction and trauma. The kids need to be seeing somebody too, because they need to talk through it too. They have no idea what's going on and even if they don't know that there's some kind of you know betrayal that's happening, they know something's changed. They know dad's gone right. They know mom is completely devastated. They have no idea why she's crying all the time. They know that. You know everything's turned upside down and kids are really, really smart and they figure it out.
Speaker 2:They really do they figure it out real fast, right.
Speaker 1:And I tell people all the time, especially new guys in the program that asked me, there was actually a guy just checked in, because we always jokingly call you the wife whisper because and not to put pressure on you, because you can't make someone do the work, but you do have a, you know your stuff. You've got a great way of being an advocate for us but also keeping them informed. But the one thing that you do that I think is so helpful and that was an absolute game changer for Jamie and the family was the psycho education piece. You help the betrayed partner understand to the best they can when they're ready, like you don't hit them with that at first. You let them, you know, go through their grieving process.
Speaker 1:But talk about that just for a little bit, because I really feel like the thing that made a difference for Jamie and I was her willingness and then your um, you giving her the information to understand the disease and the addiction and all the things that I was going through. Like hey, this is not who he is when he's healthy and it was. It took a while for the head and the heart and there's still times of where she's retraumatized or triggered. We go through these things right, but talk about the importance of that when it comes to families. The psycho education piece yeah.
Speaker 2:So I actually run a group on Wednesdays and that's a big part of that psycho education piece too, and I I tried to do it as well, like on the phone with people when I'm talking to them. But I think it's really important for people to recognize that when somebody has a process addiction like the essay, like the sex addiction, or if they're here for gambling or food or shopping, right, we're creating that flood of dopamine. It's not coming from a chemical. It takes longer for the brain to come back online than it does if we just stop a chemical and start medications. So it's trying to get people to recognize what that looks like.
Speaker 2:So the resources that I try to provide in books and in my group where we can sit down and we can go through the Carnes model and we can go through the Kraft model which the other Wednesday group uses Brook Donahue runs a group for us for families and support for that for more of the CA or the SUD portion of all of that.
Speaker 2:I said CACD but for that portion of the family group and then I run one that's solely for the women and the partners. So it's being able for them to recognize that sex addiction itself is that it's an addiction. It's an addiction, is a brain disease. So recognizing that this isn't who you are, that this is an addiction and that addiction like attacks the brain differently when we're flooding our brain with dopamine, what it does to the neurotransmitters, how they start dying off, how, when they start coming back online, how we have to have them come back online normally and healthily, and how we have to add serotonin and there's medications sometimes involved and how you have to see the psychiatrist for that and there's a whole bunch of therapy.
Speaker 1:It's a deep well right, that's why we come here and we invest so much time in it, because it's not and I didn't know any of this before I came. I was, I had no idea what was going on and I was very resistant to labeling myself as an addict at all. But what I found and please correct me if I'm saying this wrong but like that, the SA is an umbrella for intimacy disorder and all kinds of things, because guys may come in and be like well, I'm not addicted to pornography or I haven't had an affair, I haven't, I don't act out, I don't get to go to prostitute, I don't know all this stuff, and they still are under the SA umbrella because they have trouble connecting or they have intimacy disorders, all those different things. And so what I love about the work that you do here is we go deeper than the labels. We go way deeper.
Speaker 1:It's like, okay, fine, like I remember you guys be like I don't care, call yourself what you want, to call yourself your life's unmanageable, you're in rehab in Denver, so let's just get to the bottom of whatever it is, you know. But I love telling guys that the going back to what you're talking about a minute ago, the break with the families. Like it's so hard. You guys allowed me to talk to my kids at night every night for a while, but then we realized this was re-traumatizing them every day.
Speaker 1:I remember you saying, hey, let's do once a week for a while and just check up in for the first little while. Some of the kids didn't jump on that call. Yeah, they were not ready, they were not ready to re-engage with me yet. But I tell guys, new in the program, guy just asked me last night. First of all I said do you trust Jill? He did just met you and I, without missing a beat, I said with my life, absolutely with my life. And then he's okay, good, because my wife is not talking to me. I was like listen, do what Jill says. The break you're going to take, whether it's, I think Jamie and I might have been more than 30 days where we didn't talk.
Speaker 2:And then when?
Speaker 1:we did start talking. It was with you. It saved our marriage. Like Jamie and I both would say that reset is exactly what we needed to work on ourselves before we could start to like re-engage. So I know we just did a deep dive, but I want to hear some of your story. I want people to get to know you a little bit. Talk about how did you get into this? Like, how did you get to not just a valiant, but into this field?
Speaker 2:Into this field. Yeah, let's see. How did I get into this field.
Speaker 1:Why are you doing this, Jill? Why am I doing this? Why am I doing this?
Speaker 2:My career has changed so many times, right so?
Speaker 1:Which is all it's helped you. Your nursing background, all that kind of stuff has helped you.
Speaker 2:It really has helped me. So I have a nursing background, of course, and then you know, I always wanted to do something more, like what more can you do than nursing? But I wanted to do. I wanted to do something more that pertained to like how I know I could help myself in a way that was fulfilling. I guess is what I'm looking for. That's the word. I come from a long line of alcoholics and a long line of like mental health. So, knowing that, I knew that there were other people out there like me that I could possibly help, so I wanted to figure out what that would look like. So when I went back to school, I went back and got my bachelor's degree in clinical psychology and I was like this is going to be great. I could do so much with this. You can't. So apparently, a bachelor's degree means shit in anything you do.
Speaker 1:So Can I pause for a minute? You made it almost 15 minutes without swearing and that's a record that is huge. One of my favorite things about you is my sweet wife started saying the F word after she met you and working with you and she's going to kill me whatever you say, that Jamie, I know, I know she was dropping F bombs like crazy. I was like yes, girl, sorry to interrupt you. I just want to say how proud I was of you for going a full 15.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you. I was really proud of her for getting it out. I was like you're angry.
Speaker 2:Just let it out girl, let it out, let's talk. I loved it too. I was so proud of her. So a bachelor's degree you can't do anything with that in this field. So I had to go back to school and decided to go get my master's in the same area because I was like I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm going to get my LPC. So I'm back to school and while I was working towards my master's degree, I had to do an internship and I didn't know where I was going to do it. So I met this really cool guy named Rio Leslie who owns the Colorado School of Family Therapy, and when I went to see him he's like hey, if you're going to go ahead and get your LPC, you might as well get your LAC my license addiction counselor.
Speaker 2:And he's like. And while you're doing that, you might as well get licensed for marriage and family therapy too, and I'm like, that sounds like a whole bunch.
Speaker 2:And he's like, yeah, but you could do it all at the same time and I was like, oh, okay, so he wrote me on into that. So when I was in school to get my master's in clinical psych, I went ahead and went to school with him as well and coming out then I was able to get licensed for my license my professional license, my or my license professional counseling, and then my license addiction counseling, and then my marriage and family therapy license and I started off in the in the world of like kiddos. I worked for the, the judicial two court system here in Denver and I worked with kids in like middle school and high school and then in the criminal justice system. That was a lot. Working with kids was a whole bunch. Yeah, it was a whole bunch. And then I was lucky enough to get hired on at a place called Jade and it was kind of like here, we just didn't have sober living attached and it was coed and that's where I got to meet Scott Lister which was wonderful.
Speaker 1:That was your connection to here, that was my connection to here, and he's an awesome guy.
Speaker 2:And then when COVID happened, it kind of killed Jade, but Scott was owning Lotus Lodge at the time. That was his sober living houses at the time but he was also running the detox which was it wasn't valiant detox at the time.
Speaker 1:It was a different detox, yeah.
Speaker 2:And he knew Deneen, and so when Jade closed down, I hadn't even applied here. I just randomly got this phone call. Yeah, and they're like we heard that that Jade is closing down and we're looking for a therapist. And Lister said if we don't hire you, that would be a poor idea. So I was like, well, okay, so I did an interview and the rest is history.
Speaker 1:The rest is history. Well, I'm glad that. I'm glad that happened. I hope you're. I hope you're a lifer, because the work you do is just incredible. Explain to the people like as lead therapists, because we're focused on families today, but that's you do so much. It's crazy what you guys carry, but that's just a part of what you do. Explain to people just the role of the lead therapist here.
Speaker 2:As lead therapist here. I do a whole bunch, so I run. I run two OP groups. So with that, I run the five o'clock and 630 OP group on Monday, which is awesome.
Speaker 1:What does OP mean for people listening?
Speaker 2:Or I'm not OP, I'm sorry, iop. So IOP means intensive outpatient, so that is the step down therapy. So it goes like this you come in, you go to PHP, which is partial hospitalization. I run one of those as well. So I essentially run one of every group. So I run a partial hospitalization group on Thursdays at 1230. So I'll be doing that after this. And then I run two IOP groups. They are they are like consecutive groups at five and 630 on Monday. And then I run our only OP group, which stands for outpatient, which is our final step down group. And then I'm also part of alumni.
Speaker 1:I help run that with Pete. That's kind of your baby. Yeah, it's my baby. I love alumni. He does a great job, but you're driving a lot of the vision and all that kind of stuff for alumni which. I'm so grateful for I try to get on it every Tuesday. If I can, even on Zoom, I get on. It's great.
Speaker 2:It's a great thing. It helps. It helps the guys here recognize that this is possible when they see people who have come through the program. My dream and my envision for alumni, if I could even just talk about that for a second, because it's a big, huge deal for me is for guys that come through the program to continue to come to alumni long enough that they're able to be temporary sponsors to the guys that come in here from out of state.
Speaker 1:That would be so cool.
Speaker 2:That's my huge thing in this If we could get people to continue being a part of the Valiant community long enough that they could just come and be temporary sponsors to these guys, like our local guys in Colorado, like, if you're still here, be a temporary sponsor.
Speaker 1:When I tell you why I go to alumni. For a lot of different reasons, but the main one is I need to keep a connection with this place from the standpoint of. I need to be reminded weekly of where I was, the progress that I'm making. I need to hear from the PHP guys that are in it and be reminded of like oh, because you can get back out in the world and if you're not careful you can stop working your recovery plan. You can do it like, and that's when the relapses start happening. But every week I need to log on, I need to check in with these guys. I need to be reminded that it's one day at a time. You know all those things.
Speaker 1:I love your idea about temporary sponsor, because even last night I spent some time with the PHP guys and I was so. I had a lot that came up for me with them, but one guy specifically really connected with, because I just remember being that guy, like missing my kids and I got to get out of here, I got to get back to them. All the frantic anxiety, all the stuff you guys deal with when we're in our first couple of weeks what am I doing here? I don't belong here, I need to be somewhere else. I'm not, you know, and you know I was able just to listen to them and say, man, I can relate, me too, you know it's like, and I don't feel like I got to fix them, I just wanted to be there for them.
Speaker 1:And I love that the alumni program here is. I love it. I love that you guys are always looking at ways to grow. You're doing thrown events for us, you're doing, you know, excursions, all that stuff. It's huge, and I do wish more guys would do it, because I think it's key to recovery staying, keeping that connection, it really is Well, connection is the opposite of addiction right.
Speaker 2:It really is.
Speaker 1:That's one of the other things I always quote you on, and could you just unpack that concept for a minute, because that is a lot of people think addiction or sobriety, but you would always say sobriety is not the opposite of addiction is connection. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2:Because when we're in our active, when we're in our active addiction, we're really not around anybody else, right? If I ask anybody what their addiction looked like, it looked like a whole bunch of isolation. It looked like not being with other people. It looked like surrounding themselves with either a single person, a single entity, and their addiction right, Locking themselves in the basement, locking themselves in their house, locking themselves around someone else, losing connection with like their peers, losing connection with their family, completely isolating within themselves. So they lose touch with like reality and everything else. People lose their jobs. They're turning down plans with the people that they usually are doing things with. They quit being invited to things, they're losing everything that they had. So they don't have that connection anymore and that's why connection is so important.
Speaker 1:Well, and that this place for me was probably the first place I ever felt like I could be fully honest. I don't know that I've ever was honest, fully, you know. And then just realizing, like man, you can't, you just can't get not just healing, but you can't actually receive love because no one knows you, no one knows how to show up for you, because you're not allowing anybody to. And just being here was one of those places where it was such a safe place with the other guys just to be like man. Here's what I'm going through, here's what happened. And then you guys teaching us about self love and compassion.
Speaker 1:Because we come in with so much toxic shame, because most of us come in and we've lost almost everything, you know, lost our families, whether permanently or temporarily. We're just like. We lost our careers, we lost, we're just okay, we're at the rock bottom here. We are disconnected from the world right, you know, not disconnected. We have a relationships here, like you guys are very intentional with that, but all our other relationships are temporarily paused.
Speaker 1:But part of the healing work is, hey, this is a place where you can start being honest and then developing the tools. Like I've said on the podcast, before I've changed. I used to say you guys saved my life, which I still feel deeply about that my life, my marriage, everything. But now I'm saying and maybe it was you that corrected me on this but really what you did is you gave me the tools to save Like because not to put you guys on a pedestal of like you can't save people's lives. They can save their own lives. You can give them the tools and that's exactly what you did. You gave Jamie and the tools. If we'll work this process, there's proven results. And if you stop working the process, you know it doesn't work, Then it doesn't work right?
Speaker 2:There's a difference between sobriety and recovery. Right, Like you can be sober and not be in recovery.
Speaker 1:Say more about that. So sobriety versus recovery, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:You could definitely be sober and not be in recovery. You can be sober and just be white knuckling it and be miserable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you can be in recovery and be sober and be happy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, live a full life.
Speaker 2:There's a complete difference If you're living a full life and being in recovery means like fully working your recovery plan. That means the connection, like staying connected to your recovery supports, staying connected to your meeting, staying connected to the things that are healthy for you. Keeping a schedule Schedules are so big, right, so big. We lose a schedule when you're in active addiction. You don't have a schedule. That's one of the things that you get when you come here, like if I were to ask any of the people that are very first coming in here, like what's the one thing you didn't have that you have now they're going to tell me a schedule Schedule plan yeah, nobody yeah plan.
Speaker 2:Nobody went to bed at a normal time or got up at a normal time. Nobody showered every day.
Speaker 1:I like did you carry out the?
Speaker 2:right. I'm like, did you eat every day? Like, did you eat three meals a day? Did you, you know, like, tell me the last time you went to bed at like 11 and woke up at 6 30, you ate a breakfast and then you went to the gym and then you, like, had an actual lined up schedule and then you went home and you ate dinner and then you did it all over again. I want to know the last time.
Speaker 1:it looked like that and it's a simple thing. It's like hey, did you brush your teeth before? But like just things that like are seem small. But one thing I love that you guys I don't know if I said love, but I appreciate the fact that you made us do is every morning.
Speaker 2:Your bed. Yeah, I know it's the number one thing, and I saw Travis walking here and he will get on you. If your room is a mess because that's the real life thing Like if you don't make your bed, or if your room is a mess, that's chaos, yeah, and chaos is addiction, yeah, so you have to be put together.
Speaker 1:Oh boy, and we would, if someone wasn't making their bed, because sometimes it would be like, hey, we're going to do this thing this weekend, but you, everyone's got to make their bed this week and if one guy wasn't making their bed boy, the house would be like come on, man, like you can't ruin this for the rest of us, make your bed. There was one dude in our group that was like never made his bed, and we're like dude, get up five minutes earlier and make your bed.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:We can't go hiking this, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:You know, we're all going to get like everything's going to get ruined. We're all going to get it if you don't make your bed, and for the love of God, just throw your stuff in this suitcase and close the lid Right.
Speaker 1:Well, there was a. It wasn't just you guys being trying to be like military about it was there was a reason behind it. It was about us living intentionally living, you know, respecting the space, you know being on a schedule, caring enough about ourself and our environment to actually keep it clean and keep it nice. And so it wasn't just like a purposeless exercise. But man, it is so important and it is, it is important for us to go back and look at those things regularly and make sure that you know the PCI stuff that we did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that you're staying, that you're staying in that, right? Because when you leave here, too, you want to lead by that example, right? That's one of the things that I always say, too. Like your words are going to mean nothing to your family and your spouse when you go home. So you, you talk the talk this whole time anyway, and you were lying. So everything you say when you go home, your wife is going to look at you and think you're full of shit. That's right, right. So it doesn't matter what you say. Like she doesn't know if she can trust you anyway, that trust is going to take years to build back.
Speaker 2:So the skills that you learn here as far as like being able to show up, being able to cook a meal, being able to make the bed, being able to, you know, do the things that you've learned Do whatever it is yeah. About being a responsible adult right being a person.
Speaker 2:Right being a human and going back and like doing those things and they're like holy shit, who is this person? Right, those are the things that I'm talking about, like you're going to actually have to show. Show what you're doing. It's the intention and actually showing and doing that's going to make them recognize. Oh, you have changed, you are changing, you continue to change, because your words aren't going to mean anything.
Speaker 1:It actually hurt us because they're so used to us manipulating that if, if we start doing that again, in truth, part of why the break is so important, right, because we'll start talking, manipulating whatever, and they know that game.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So they call us out on that, you know. And so it is almost better to not say anything and just show up and do the work. And I will say from my experience you can correct me if this is not the norm, but I just feel like the people that know us the best and love us the most they can tell when we're doing the work, when we're showing up, they can tell, they can tell when we're changing and when we're different. You know, I know that was true for my kids and for for Jamie. It's like okay, I see something. I know you so well, I see something different in you and even stuff I didn't recognize. Like well, what is it? I don't know I'm, you know, I don't feel that much different because it's. It just became who we, who we are. Yeah, it could become part of who we are, and so that was so important. I want to talk a little bit more while I have you about the family stuff, because I know a big fear for guys coming in is the family piece right, yeah.
Speaker 1:A lot of them are coming in and the, the. There's a spectrum of situations and stories, but pretty common is a spouse has been betrayed one way or another, whether it's a process, addiction or a substance or you know, a disappointed, especially with kids. And so can we talk a little bit more about just that first, even that first 30 to 45 days. I know we already kind of went there. I just want to go a little deeper, dive into just the why behind it. You know, so we come in or in our, our control. You know, just, close fisted, what do you say to the guys and what do you say to the, the spouses or the significant others in those first few days that were first, honestly, could be more than that for a few weeks? A why behind the intentional disconnect.
Speaker 2:Again, it goes back to that her people, her people, right? And I kind of want us all to do a reset and recognize that we we all have to do our own work. So that's another thing that I'm trying to get everybody to do, like if I, if I say like if you focus on yourself, right, I need you to focus on you. So if I'm telling you like you need this time just to focus on you, and then I'm going to work with her to figure out what she needs to do, to focus on her, and if I can get you both to start focusing on yourselves, to do your own work, then you guys can come back together and show each other that you guys have been doing your own work right, because you have to get better and she has to get better in order for the system to get better, because it really is an entire family system, right? So, basically, what's happened is in the system altogether, is this disconnect has started, right? So something started to change. It's you right?
Speaker 1:The partner started to change right. Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert, it's you.
Speaker 2:And they recognize it. Right, but they don't, they can't put their finger on it. They know it's there, like in their sixth sense, can, they could see it, but they, they don't know what it is right. They're like, why, why isn't he paying attention? Why is he always gone? Why, what is going on? So if it's a process addiction, this is what they're thinking. If it's a chemical, they definitely can see it, they know what's happening. But they, they're recognizing that and as you pull away, they pull away, right. So now there's kind of this this break, right.
Speaker 2:And as this break starts happening, they're, they're getting to the point where they're fed up. You're getting to the point where you're like I have more time, I have more time to do what I want, right, and that frustration for them just gets bigger and higher and more explosive, right. And then, when they figure out what happens, this weird codependency piece like comes on board. So as soon as discovery happens, there's like a control aspect on both sides, right. So you get caught, right. And there's like this discovery, and as soon as that happens, you're making up all these excuses, right, and gaslighting and saying that's not true, that didn't happen, or it was only one time, or that is, they didn't mean anything to me, like I, I don't even know what happened, it was an accident, whatever it's such an accident. And they're like going in and going through all your stuff, cause now they need this weird control, so they want to find out everything, so they become like a one detective, right, and it's more damaging to them than it is good, right? So I want them to recognize that.
Speaker 2:So my, my whole thing is is like if, if you're here and I can tell you like don't talk to her, like do your work, leave it alone. You're just gaslighting her and blowing her up. Quit looking through his stuff. Don't do it. It's not what. What is it serving you? That's what I ask Like what? What is it serving you Finding out more?
Speaker 1:And it's so hard, right, because I don't want to speak for Jamie, but I do know like that part of the process. There was just like I just want to know. Just I want to know and we were working a therapeutic disclosure. You know process and I know you guys, cause you just told me we're telling you have to be patient, you have to be patient with this. But it got to the point where it was like, just I just need to know what all's going on, right, and that's tough, right. A lot of spouses probably feel that way.
Speaker 2:They definitely do, and so that's that's where it leads to, right. I'm like, if you want to know, then then we can do. We can do therapeutic full disclosure and then you'll know everything. But if you want to know everything, then quit looking for details now. Then you have to find the correct therapist, right? You need a C-SAT, you need an A-SAT or you need a CPTT. I'll help you find one in your area. I can send you an entire list of them. You can start calling them, see who has openings. I can get you on my group. We can start talking about things. Through that group you can start connecting with other people. I can hook you up with ISA, which is Impedility Survivors Anonymous. I can hook you up with SNON, which is Sex Addiction Like it's like Alamon.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I can support for sex addicts, spouses. I can hook you up with other support groups. I can get you, you know, hooked up with, like with retreats. I can get you hooked up with whatever you need. But at this point, like you have to take a break from trying to dig and look because you will get the truth. But we have to get him stable, we have to get you stable and then we can start unraveling the truth and digging it up and getting it out on paper so you can get it and it's hard. But once they start working with a therapist that specializes in this, that therapist can help them get back in their body. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Can help them at. You know, be able to do some somatic work, you know. Help them recognize their trauma. Start working on family of origin, work for themselves while you're doing it here. Right, and that that's exactly what it takes.
Speaker 1:Well, what we found to is that and you know, no surprise, but with, specifically with a full disclosure process, there's so many, like you said, so many great resources to help you with it. You're not on your own. Of course, there's a team here that helps you, but there's so many. There's so many great, just great data and statistics on people who work this therapeutic process are so much more likely to succeed moving forward.
Speaker 1:And what I was? It was explained to me like hey, this is just getting you to a point of decisions here. This doesn't mean you're saving your marriage or what this is. You have to give her what she needs so she can make a decision for herself on how she wants to proceed. But I finally got to the point in my disclosure was like I need her to know all this stuff, because I was so that the rigorous honesty part like for the rest of my life, I have to move forward as this kind of person, and so for me to even be able to receive her love, she needs to know everything. And I need her to choose. And I was prepared for, like hey, if she chooses to go a different way, I would almost not almost. I would rather have that and be fully known than continue to live a lie and live in dishonesty.
Speaker 1:I couldn't do that anymore and it was a you know. To quote Renee Brown, it was a brutal experience. There's so much beauty in it. Yeah you know, and it was one of the hardest things we've ever done, but the team here walks you through every step. It is a very detailed process. Yes, it is Lie detector. I failed my first one. I had to take a second one. I can't. I can't I kept saying this is you do not want to fail this.
Speaker 2:I was like people generally don't fail them. And then you come back and you're like I failed it.
Speaker 1:I'm like you're fucking kidding.
Speaker 2:And you're like no, I like I legit failed it and I thought you were kidding, and then I had to tell Jamie that you failed it.
Speaker 1:And I was like oh, my God.
Speaker 1:In my defense, though I didn't change anything. Really. I went back and rewarded some things, you know. So it wasn't like I was so frustrated because I was like I, if I'm leaving, I don't know what it is. I like I tried so hard to say everything and I was so nervous, you know. And so even the lie detector guy or whatever, he was really kind because he was like there's one question that might, I guess, my brain kept spiking on, or whatever he's like, just I'm gonna ask you again, I just want you to relax. Every time you tell me to relax, I get more anxious. Stop. But anyways, that's the second time.
Speaker 1:Thankfully, once you figured out what it was that was a little thing, kept it from passing, but. But Jamie needed to know like, hey, everything is disclosure is true and real. And I didn't leave anything out, and you know, and there's a whole process for her to ask questions and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:It's a huge process, right, and the questions come in and they go to. They usually come to me as a contact, they go to your CSAT, right, and then we vet them against your disclosure and then you know, we make sure it's all there and then that's how the questions are asked for your, for your polygraph, and it's. It's an amazing thing.
Speaker 1:It really is.
Speaker 2:And it makes you feel better. And I tell the guys too. I'm like here's the thing, and I tell the wives this too once you're done with disclosure, you feel so much better because you just threw up all over your wife and then your wife feels disgusting because you just threw up all over your wife, totally Right. So it takes her a while to like process all of that, and then she gets to write her impact letter, right, and then you get that. So then she feels better, angry, a little slighted, right, but she gets to tell you how that impacted her and then you get to write your immense. So it's a great process that gets to go along with the entire, the entire work.
Speaker 1:I'm glad you talked about that, because if someone's listening and is like you know because there's going to be people listening to this that have secrets or like I don't know how to tell just know that there is a really wonderful process that you can work and I use those words carefully Because I mean it's it's not easy process but the result of it is is amazing If you work it and you follow the steps and do all the things I wanted to ask you before I let you go, just because you mentioned impact letter and men's, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:I want to talk just for briefly about the kids, because I need to have you back on and we need to do a deeper dive on somebody. See, like we could do a whole episode on disclosure in that process, right? And you know, one thing that you told me and I was here that I had to realize is that I didn't just traumatize my family, I traumatized everyone in my family individually. So for me that meant working a men's process with Jamie, of course, but with each one of my kids individually, and I've got four kids from 19 all the way down to 10.
Speaker 1:So that was tough. Yeah, that was tough, but there is a process for that as well, and so explain a little bit for those that are listening to this that have children and I know like we could do a whole episode on this, right, but talk a little bit about the importance of that process with the kids.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. A huge part of my job here, too, is to make sure that I find support for everybody. So, whether it be you know, not only your wife, but also with you know, your, your if your parents are involved, and then your children, for sure. So making sure that they also have the therapeutic support that they need. So getting them set up with therapy and then talking to their therapist so I get a release and then I'm able to communicate with their therapist to see where they're at, and then getting an impact letter from them and how your you know, your addiction and your actions have impacted them.
Speaker 2:And then having them write that impact letter, getting it sent over to us and then having you read that impact letter to see what it's done. Right, and as you process through that impact letter, you get to really really see, like, what work needs to be done. So you know that it's going to be a journey. Even when you return back home. This is going to be ongoing work, right. So they get to share with you what they're needing from you, and then you get to work on your surrender in that piece too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that was one of the things that I did with you and one of the things that I do with most of the guys here is making sure that I get those impact letters from everybody in their nuclear family to make sure that we can get that work done, and then making sure that you have family therapy as you return home, because it's going to be a process, yeah, so having you come in and read those, those letters with the kids and you you get to either read them or the kids get to read them to you, but they're with you either on zoom or in the office, that's huge because then you have that energy and you guys get to experience that together.
Speaker 1:Well, and by the time, just so people know they're listening, you guys are obviously really wise about when that happens in the recovery journey, right? So by the time those letters come, we have done enough work To know how to be grounded, to get ourselves grounded, to check in Like I read my letters. You have me read my letters to the other guys to get support and encouragement, all those things. And you know I keep on my back right here. I still have my impact letters for my kids because it's actually I have gratitude when I read them now like man, they were honest with me and it was it motivated me to do it.
Speaker 1:So it was a big part of our, of our recovery journey. We did the family therapy and all that kind of stuff post and you know and you can't, you know part of what we learn here and you know breaking the codependency. You can't control how people are always going to respond but, man, for us and our situation is just so much hope when we work that process. You know the kids especially you would always say I mean the kids want to have their a healthy parent in their life.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:They're ready to forgive and come around, like most kids. If you show up stable, consistent, you know doing the work. They want that right.
Speaker 2:They definitely want that, yeah, and the like. The key to that is making sure that we do it in IOP right. So it's not until you've reached that step down level Right, and the only way you're going to reach IOP is when you have that shift and we call it the shift because we need to see it, and that shift comes with surrender and empathy. I have to see these things right. If I don't see surrender and empathy, you're stuck in PHP right.
Speaker 1:I'm just laughing because I've spent a little extra time in PHP for those reasons.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Cause it's a real life thing, right, and sometimes it takes a while for, for you know, surrender and empathy to come on board. And when surrender and empathy finally come on board and we get to see it and it has to be real you can't bullshit a bullshitter and you're working with lots of bullshitters here.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you, as soon as we actually see it and it's a real live shift of empathy and and surrender, then we're like ah, you did it, you're here, and then we can move you down to IOP, and then we can start doing the real hard.
Speaker 1:I thought I had you guys fooled. I was playing it cool and then it's something you guys oh, you didn't remember you and Jen they gave me my phone back. Oh, yeah, yeah, you like lost it, I lost it and I just went in the door.
Speaker 2:It was so funny.
Speaker 1:I came back the next morning I was like I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2:I know Jen said. Jen said I told him that you, you said he couldn't have his phone back and he was real mad and I was like you should have just brought him to me. Yeah, I was like it would have been fine, Like I had to tell them he couldn't have his phone back.
Speaker 1:I know, but to your point, I wasn't surrendered yet?
Speaker 2:No, you weren't, you weren't ready, you know no.
Speaker 1:So I, looking back, I appreciate all those decisions you make on made on my behalf, even the ones I didn't like.
Speaker 2:I was like no phone for another 15 days then I know, I think I went a long time.
Speaker 1:I went well, and I was on a full digital detox too, so I didn't even have it like the hour a day or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I tried to do that for at least two weeks for the SA guys coming in and then seeing how they react and what that communication looks like. Then I'll ink it again. Like it just depends, because so good it is, it's really important that we make sure that we do have that empathy and that surrender before we have communication.
Speaker 1:Well, listen, I, if this wasn't so bad, right, you'll come back. No, I'll definitely come back. You'll come back again. It wasn't so bad and maybe I want to stumble over every word, or like fidget in my chair like I am, I can't hold still.
Speaker 2:No, you're a good one, you know my ADD body is not holding still.
Speaker 1:Well, I just. What happened on this episode and what people are hearing right now is exactly what I hoped, because the work you do here is so profound, so significant changes lives or, like I said, equips people to change their life.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it and it's so huge.
Speaker 1:Last question for you your dream, your hope. What are you dreaming about for yourself, for valiant, for people that are listening right now, who are considering maybe Coming to a rehab or treatment facility? Yeah, Kind of looking to the future for us.
Speaker 2:You know I kind of like what Melissa said. You know I love it here. So when you asked like like what I, what I like about here, and that you hope on a life, or like, I always joke with Danine and say like if, if they ever try to get rid of me, they'll have to like pack everything up and like pull me out of here in a wagon or call the police Because I'm not going anywhere. And my hope would be to make sure that we have like this solid family plan right and to make sure that I'm able to get everybody you know into like every group that I have, for the Wednesday groups and for my group, and to make sure that everybody is cared for in the way that they need to be cared for. And my hope is is to make sure that we are able to treat everybody that comes through the door the way, the way that they deserve to be treated, so they're healthy and to.
Speaker 2:I just want to help people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, you are. You're doing it. I'm grateful, All right. Final thing what was your best piece of advice you ever gave me?
Speaker 2:Andrew, don't fuck it up. That is the number one piece of advice.
Speaker 1:But 90 days of rehab and left with one phrase.
Speaker 2:Don't fuck it up. It is the one phrase I tell all the guys you walk out this door. Number one I could guarantee you could ask almost everybody here.
Speaker 1:That is what I tell everybody. Jill, thank you so much for doing this.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Well, we appreciate you listening to this episode of the Valiant Living podcast and our hope is that it helped you feel educated, encouraged and even empowered on your journey towards peace and freedom. If we can serve you or your loved one in any way, we'd love to have a conversation with you. You can call 720-756-7941 or email admissions at valiantlivingcom. At Valiant Living, we treat the whole person so you not only survive, but you thrive in the life you deserve. And finally, if this episode has been helpful to you, it would mean a lot to us if you'd subscribe and even share it with your friends and family. You can also follow along with us on Instagram and Facebook by simply searching Valiant Living. Thanks again for listening and supporting the Valiant Living podcast. We'll see you next week.